So, Why did Angle turn on Eddie?

[Guest Anglesault]

No answer's ever going to be good enough for you, is it?

Of course there's an answer that's good enough.

 

"You're right."

 

Because no one can give me a reason for January that doesn't have plot holes.

 

The best thing is to Just delete January and run with SD! Rumble being the first interaction.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Unless you want to run with the "Kurt Angle is insane" angle, which stems from him getting his neck broken in the 96 olympics where it created a chemical imbalance in his brain. He had it under control for a while, but then he got into wrestling. 99% of the bumps he takes in the ring completely uneffect his mind, but there's always that 1% that triggers Insane Angle (or "Insangle" or "Bad Kurt"). This explains all of his heel turns, as they all come from a bump suffered in the ring. They can bring in a doctor to substantiate this claim and speculate where the cause of his last bump took place. The doctor not only finds out when the bump occured (which they show on TV) but also discovers a shocking twist - every time Kurt makes the transition from good to bad (and bad to good) he loses a piece of himself. The doctor speculates that one more bump could kill him. So now the dilemma is to keep Insane Kurt who will probably hurt a lot of the locker room, or attempt to bring back Good Kurt who might die in the process.

[JHawk 0]

Unless you want to run with the "Kurt Angle is insane" angle, which stems from him getting his neck broken in the 96 olympics where it created a chemical imbalance in his brain. He had it under control for a while, but then he got into wrestling. 99% of the bumps he takes in the ring completely uneffect his mind, but there's always that 1% that triggers Insane Angle (or "Insangle" or "Bad Kurt"). This explains all of his heel turns, as they all come from a bump suffered in the ring. They can bring in a doctor to substantiate this claim and speculate where the cause of his last bump took place. The doctor not only finds out when the bump occured (which they show on TV) but also discovers a shocking twist - every time Kurt makes the transition from good to bad (and bad to good) he loses a piece of himself. The doctor speculates that one more bump could kill him. So now the dilemma is to keep Insane Kurt who will probably hurt a lot of the locker room, or attempt to bring back Good Kurt who might die in the process.

Far fetched. And sadly, still more plausible than anything else that WWE's creative team will think of.

[Guest Anglesault]

Unless you want to run with the "Kurt Angle is insane" angle, which stems from him getting his neck broken in the 96 olympics where it created a chemical imbalance in his brain. He had it under control for a while, but then he got into wrestling. 99% of the bumps he takes in the ring completely uneffect his mind, but there's always that 1% that triggers Insane Angle (or "Insangle" or "Bad Kurt"). This explains all of his heel turns, as they all come from a bump suffered in the ring. They can bring in a doctor to substantiate this claim and speculate where the cause of his last bump took place. The doctor not only finds out when the bump occured (which they show on TV) but also discovers a shocking twist - every time Kurt makes the transition from good to bad (and bad to good) he loses a piece of himself. The doctor speculates that one more bump could kill him. So now the dilemma is to keep Insane Kurt who will probably hurt a lot of the locker room, or attempt to bring back Good Kurt who might die in the process.

The Ol' Russo Philosophy.

 

"If you can’t satisfy ‘em, confuse ‘em"

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

It's a brilliant angle.

 

It explains all of Kurt Angles turns in a rational manner.

 

It explains how Kurt can go from being the complete dork to being the competitive hero.

 

It explains Kurts irrational decision to befriend Eddie and then to turn on him (Since every time he turns he loses a piece of himself -ie: MEMORY- so he doesn't remember ever feuding with Eddie or having an issue with him.

 

It plays up his history in the Olympics (c'mon, any impact strong enough to break someones neck is strong enough to rattle some screws, ya know?).

 

By using historical footage (incidences where the suspected "point of impact" occured) it helps back up the claim of the doctor.

 

Now, there may be a problem of suspension of disbelief, however, when you throw in truths like i)breaking neck at olympics, ii)the multiple personalities, iii)the multiple turns, iv)the multiple impacts to the head, the lie because a lot easier to swallow.

 

It also plays into the psychology of the feud and the match. Eddie _has to_ face Kurt at WM since Bad Kurt refuses to stay home and is #1 contender. However, Eddie knows that he could potentially kill Good Kurt in that match if he goes too hard. It becomes Eddies Choice. Does he help out this poor guy who can't help but be insane, or does he help himself and fight to keep his title? How does this man of little morality deal with this huge burden?

 

And, if you notice, this plays off of the real life angle from WM 19 where Kurt went into the match with an injured neck and really shouldn't have been there in the first place.

[The Metal Maniac 0]

Maybe, when he was a face (and therefore, could care about other faces) he felt pity for Eddie, as his life seemed to be falling apart.

 

Chavo accused Eddie of being on drugs again (didn't he? I thought he did) and Eddie seemed to be on the verge of going completely nuts.

 

Angle, realizing that Eddie had potential in him to be more then a drug-addicted nobody (and I don't think it's unfair to assume, in storyline terms, that Angle thought Eddie could easily fall back into his addiction if his own nephew beat the piss out of him, even if that didn't actually happen) decided that, as a nice guy, he'd try to help him, because face Angle is a nice person.

 

But, as others have said, Angle eventually got sick of Eddie's cheating ways and spotlight stealing, and flipped on him.

 

I think that explination fits, if it requires adding more dimensions to the characters then you usually see in wrestling.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

I think it's time for OLYPICO GOLD ( Goodear ) ~!

[Guest Anglesault]

Maybe, when he was a face (and therefore, could care about other faces) he felt pity for Eddie, as his life seemed to be falling apart.

Despite the fact that he never liked Eddie, or really, any thing he stood for?

[The Metal Maniac 0]

Did Angle ever say that he didn't like Eddie, in those words? Because actual people can have feelings that go beyond like and not like. I don't see why it's impossible for a guy like Angle, who was a face at the time, to feel sympathy for someone who's life is in the shitter. I don't think he had to like him to realize that he needed help.

 

Or maybe Angle just wanted to be able to brag that he was the one who re-united the Guerreros.

 

Hey, I'll admit that the story has it's gaps, but that's the best sense I can make of it.

[Guest Anglesault]

Did Angle ever say that he didn't like Eddie, in those words?

He feuded with the man (SD!6) for three months. I'm sure something along those lines was either said or suggested.

 

I don't think he had to like him to realize that he needed help.

 

There's a difference between realizing that and acting upon it.

 

I want this feud to work, and I honestly think the best way to go about that is ignoring the aspects that don't work.

[Fökai 0]

Hmm...

 

Posted: Jan 31 2004, 08:20 PM

  

A heel turn is over a combination of factors that could cause a babyface to turn into a petty, jealous asshole. Let's see...

 

-- Angle returned from neck surgery again, preaches family values due to the "Smackdown in Baghdad" show a week previous.

 

-- Eddie rejecting Angle's advice in his blood feud with Chavo (see above).

 

-- two frustrating Royal Rumble losses in one week, after Angle had promised victory to the troops.

 

-- being passed up for two shots at the WWE title, the same belt he had lost in a quasi-screwjob.

 

-- being passed up for a Mania main event, in favor of a guy (Eddie) who will probably win the title off Lesnar via cheating (Goldberg's interference, or something similar).

 

This just SCREAMS "petty, jealous asshole". All Angle has to do is look at his "Three I's" past, and there's more than enough evidence to believe this heel turn would make sense.

 

 

Hart/Austin in 1997, anyone? 

[Guest ManKinnd]

Wow, AS, does EVERYONE get it except for you?

Has everyone agreed that this storyline makes sense except you?

Yea, the problem lies in the storyline.

Sure.

[The Metal Maniac 0]

He feuded with the man (SD!6) for three months.

 

Yeah, but one could argue that whole thing was (more or less) over championship titles, at least once the tag titles came into the mix. Thus, it wouldn't require him to *hate* Eddie, and you could even state that it was in that fued that Angle realized that Eddie was a great talent who deserved more then being a druggie. I had forgotten all about that, though.

 

There's a difference between realizing that and acting upon it.

 

Agreed. But why is it impossible to believe that Angle decided that since no one else was acting on it, being the American hero that he is, he would act on it?

 

I mean, I'm not trying to argue that the whole thing makes perfect sense...but I think if you look at it from the right angle, it makes more sense then completely ignoring all of January, which really, makes no sense in kayfabe terms. Did they both get amnesia?

[Guest Anglesault]

Yeah, but one could argue that whole thing was (more or less) over championship titles, at least once the tag titles came into the mix. Thus, it wouldn't require him to *hate* Eddie, and you could even state that it was in that fued that Angle realized that Eddie was a great talent who deserved more then being a druggie. I had forgotten all about that, though.

 

I see where you are coming from, but I really fall under the philosophy that we shouldn't just have to assume why something's going on. It's there responsibility to tell us before hand, not three months into the angle, not just ignore it. Because what's to stop us from assuming that RRR's scenario is the storyline? The last thing they flat out told us was that Kurt really wasn't a fan of Eddy.

 

Agreed. But why is it impossible to believe that Angle decided that since no one else was acting on it, being the American hero that he is, he would act on it?

 

One could argue that even Angle's face character was always only out for himself.

 

Wow, AS, does EVERYONE get it except for you?

Has everyone agreed that this storyline makes sense except you

 

I guess so. Please explain it to me so there are no plotholes.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Because what's to stop us from assuming that RRR's scenario is the storyline?

 

Absolutely nothing.

 

 

I think Insangle should have a unibrow. To help us further distinguish between Good Kurt and Bad Kurt. Why he didn't have it before is because the more he changes, the more he CHANGES.

[Guest ManKinnd]

Angle feuded with Eddie over titles as Metal Maniac said, not necessarily hating him. Then he sees how Eddie is sinking, and wants to help him out. Are you telling me you've never met a person that wants to help out someone who is in trouble?

So he is doing this, but as time goes on he starts to see Chavo's side of the story. As this is happening he sees Eddie going for the World Title. Now he can kill two birds with one stone. Take out the Eddie that is wrong in the situation that Angle has now gotten himself emotionally involved in, (for him to say "I felt sorry for you, but you were the one who was wrong!", for ex.) and also to take out the man who is vying for the World title. When he ends up actually winning it, this is the last straw.

To close, there's no reason the #1 contendor for the title shouldn't attack the champion. He should weaken him at every opportunity before his match.

[Guest Anglesault]

Angle feuded with Eddie over titles as Metal Maniac said, not necessarily hating him. Then he sees how Eddie is sinking, and wants to help him out

 

Despite that being something that kind of goes against the principles of the Angle character.

 

Are you telling me you've never met a person that wants to help out someone who is in trouble?

 

Certainly. But usually, that person hasn't proven themselves to be incredibally selfish over the last five years.

 

And just to be clear, everything since the SD! Rumble works fine->perfectly. But they MUST delete everything before that.

 

It goes against anything we ever knew about the Angle character.

[Kurt Angle Mark 0]

Certainly. But usually, that person hasn't proven themselves to be incredibally selfish over the last five years.

To me it was pretty obvious that Angle was trying to unite the Guerrerros for selfish reasons.

 

The whole thing was done to keep Eddie out of the Rumble.

 

Angle tried to help so that Eddie would concentrate on the Tag Titles instead of the WWE title. That failed so he had Heyman book a match between Eddie and Chavo to keep Eddie out of the Rumble.

 

And the reason Angle can use to explain this is that Eddie was a threat because he "Lies, Cheats and Steals" which means that Eddie would do whatever it takes to win. Therefore Angle felt he had to take him out of the picture.

[Guest ManKinnd]

So selfish people are ALWAYS selfish and never show any signs of being any different?

Pretty 1-dimensional world in which we live, huh?

 

EDIT: To add to this, I think it was a case of someone who has a bad characteristic trying to change for the better, but in the end utterly failing. A little story to develop the Angle character.

[SuperJerk 0]

Okay, here's my explanation. If you don't like it, fine.

 

If you do like it, I'll die of shock.

 

 

 

 

After Kurt broke his neck at Wrestlemania (so the story goes), he had time to reflect. The stress of being a WWE Superstar was off his shoulders. He could relax and take time to see what's really important in life: his family.

 

While he was away, Brock Lesnar called him several times to see how he was doing. Since Lesnar was champion and Kurt was out of active competition, Brock could afford to be nice to Kurt. With less stress in his life, Kurt could afford to be nice to Brock.

 

Fastforward to last July. Kurt returns, and is willing to share the spotlight with his new friend Brock Lesnar. But then Kurt beat Brock for the title, and suddenly Brock hates Kurt. Brock eventually wins his title back by being ruthless while Kurt was trying to be a nice guy.

 

Then, after a bried feud with Cena, Kurt takes another couple of months off, but not before teaming up with all his former rivals at Survivor Series. Kurt brings his team together on the basis that they can beat Brock's team if they work together...and they do! While Kurt's gone again, he's glad to be spending more time with his family. When January roles around, though, Kurt comes back to find two guys he thinks are good team fighting all of the time. Still believing in the importance of family after spending so much time with his, and still seeing the value of working together, Angle decides he should try to bring Los Guerreros back together (not unlike the way he'd brought Cena and Benoit togehter before Survivor Series).

 

Well, this time it didn't work. Los Guerreros split, and Angle loses the Rumble to Benoit. But then opportunity presents itself! Benoit has left the show, and there's suddenly another chance for him to become the number one contender! But Kurt fails. Kurt loses to the man who he'd been helping for the last month. Feeling the stress of going after the WWE Title, Kurt begins to question whether or not being a nice guy to Eddie was such a good idea. Kurt's willing to wait, though, because there's no way Eddie will beat Brock, right?

 

When a match is announced to decide the number one contendership at Wrestlemania, Kurt wants in on it. Finally he'll get another shot at Brock, and get the chance to win back what he's lost to Brock twice. He's still friends with Eddie because he doesn't really think Eddie has a shot at beating Brock.

 

Kurt wins the number one contendership match at Wrestlemania, but that very same night Eddie wins the WWE Title. Eddie Guerrero...the man Kurt had helped for the last month and a half...will be Kurt's opponent at Wrestlemania XX. Kurt was a nice guy to Brock, and look what happened. Kurt tried to help Los Guerreros...and look what happened. Kurt will not let it happen again. Being a nice guy isn't getting him anywhere. If he's going to beat Eddie, he'll have to play dirty. He'll have to quit being a nice guy, and get ruthless. Kurt wants that belt, and no one is going to stand in his way. "I will beat Eddie Guerrero," thinks Angle, "but not before I send him a message."

 

Then, at the weekly show, Kurt gets his opportunity to show how ruthless he can be. He beats down Eddie during Eddie's first title defense in hopes of destroying Eddie's confidence and to send a message: I'm not a nice man. I'm a champion.

[Guest Anglesault]

Certainly. But usually, that person hasn't proven themselves to be incredibally selfish over the last five years.

To me it was pretty obvious that Angle was trying to unite the Guerrerros for selfish reasons.

 

The whole thing was done to keep Eddie out of the Rumble.

Which, of course, doesn't work because in Kurt's quest to eliminate the big challengers from the Rumble, he only took out a man that was never built up as a challenger.

 

Instead of going after the guys bulit up as challengers (Benoit, cena, show) he targets a man that has been in a back and forth feud with the Bashams.

 

So selfish people are ALWAYS selfish and never show any signs of being any different

 

Kurt never did.

 

I find it pretty damn hard to believe that a man who never cared about anyone but himself as a heel OR face would pull a Scrooge and wake up one morning, deciding to solve the world's problems, let alone the problems of a guy he never liked.

[Dangerous A 0]

AS isn't alone in his stance on the Eddy/Angle feud. I wholeheartedly agree with him in that they need to forget the stupid shit with Angle trying for no good reason to reunite the Guerreros stuff and concentrate on the story starting from the SD Rumble.

 

I find it funny that a lot of people are pulling shit out of their ass about the SD 6 feud from a year and a half ago that we are supposed to remember, yet WWE logic is to forget about anything that's happened 6 months or later because the Creative Team and Vince are team of monkeys throwing shit against a wall and can't think straight. Bottom line here is there really wasn't a good reason for Angle to involve himself with Eddy until after he was eliminated from the SD Rumble and after No Way Out when Angle was penciled in for the WWE champioship match and Eddy won the title.

 

The whole bit about Angle standing up against a guy who "lies, cheats, and steals" because Angle is a guy who has "intellingence, intensity, and integrity" is reaching, even for smark standards. Angle hasn't mentioned his "3 I's" for about a year now. Plus, he hasn't mentioned Eddy's propensity for lying, cheating, and stealing. If Angle had mentioned this before and if WWE Creative were good enough to have built it up, then it would work. Problem here as AS has mentioned is, they didn't forshadow anything here. The feud should be obvious for fans to understand and they shouldn't have to concoct theories on "why" these guys are feuding.

 

It's great that smarks are justifying the feud to themselves with wild past theories of Angle and Eddy going back to the SD 6 days, but it just doesn't hold water with AS, apparantly bps, myself,and just about all the marks out there. I know quite a bit of marks who don't know shit about the IWC or any insider shit, and they are not buying what WWE is selling in regards to the root of the Angle/Eddy feud. If it's not working for them, then don't scratch your heads when you try to figure why the feud ends up not drawing any money.

[snuffbox 0]

AS isn't alone in his stance on the Eddy/Angle feud. I wholeheartedly agree with him in that they need to forget the stupid shit with Angle trying for no good reason to reunite the Guerreros stuff and concentrate on the story starting from the SD Rumble.

 

I find it funny that a lot of people are pulling shit out of their ass about the SD 6 feud from a year and a half ago that we are supposed to remember, yet WWE logic is to forget about anything that's happened 6 months or later because the Creative Team and Vince are team of monkeys throwing shit against a wall and can't think straight. Bottom line here is there really wasn't a good reason for Angle to involve himself with Eddy until after he was eliminated from the SD Rumble and after No Way Out when Angle was penciled in for the WWE champioship match and Eddy won the title.

 

The whole bit about Angle standing up against a guy who "lies, cheats, and steals" because Angle is a guy who has "intellingence, intensity, and integrity" is reaching, even for smark standards. Angle hasn't mentioned his "3 I's" for about a year now. Plus, he hasn't mentioned Eddy's propensity for lying, cheating, and stealing. If Angle had mentioned this before and if WWE Creative were good enough to have built it up, then it would work. Problem here as AS has mentioned is, they didn't forshadow anything here. The feud should be obvious for fans to understand and they shouldn't have to concoct theories on "why" these guys are feuding.

 

It's great that smarks are justifying the feud to themselves with wild past theories of Angle and Eddy going back to the SD 6 days, but it just doesn't hold water with AS, apparantly bps, myself,and just about all the marks out there. I know quite a bit of marks who don't know shit about the IWC or any insider shit, and they are not buying what WWE is selling in regards to the root of the Angle/Eddy feud. If it's not working for them, then don't scratch your heads when you try to figure why the feud ends up not drawing any money.

you get 1 point for typing so much.

[Brett Favre 0]

Y2Jerk pretty much explained it. Well, atleast I think it makes some sense.

[Guest Anglesault]

Still believing in the importance of family after spending so much time with his,

So three months off suddenly makes him care about something he couldn't give a shit about for five years?

 

Besides, DeMott and Josh explained it on Velocity.

 

Kurt and Eddie were BESTEST FRIENDS in the whole wide world forever and ever!

 

So, of COURSE Kurt would go and meddle in the family of a man who's been his best friend for HIS WHOLE LIFE~!

[Brett Favre 0]

Still believing in the importance of family after spending so much time with his,

So three months off suddenly makes him care about something he couldn't give a shit about for five years?

 

That's because he wasn't about to die during those five years. He could have been paralyzed during those three months, and because he could have been paralyzed or died, he started to think about his family.

[SuperJerk 0]

Still believing in the importance of family after spending so much time with his,

So three months off suddenly makes him care about something he couldn't give a shit about for five years?

Under that logic, no character can EVER turn face.

 

Sometimes, believe it or not, people act like jerks until something happens to them, then they start being nice...until something else happens to them, and they start acting like jerks again.

 

Are you telling me that never happens?

 

Are you SERIOUSLY telling me that never happens?

 

Are you such an expert in human psychology, that you're telling me that can never EVER happen?

 

Are you saying that your expertise in the human mind, which obviously far exceeds mine, that no one can ever have times in their lives when their attitude changes and they act differently towards people until they encounter another high stress situation?

 

Seriously?

 

I find your criticism lacking. I stand by my explanation.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Did any of that happen on screen? Or are we to assume it happened?

[cbacon 0]

Unless you want to run with the "Kurt Angle is insane" angle, which stems from him getting his neck broken in the 96 olympics where it created a chemical imbalance in his brain. He had it under control for a while, but then he got into wrestling. 99% of the bumps he takes in the ring completely uneffect his mind, but there's always that 1% that triggers Insane Angle (or "Insangle" or "Bad Kurt"). This explains all of his heel turns, as they all come from a bump suffered in the ring. They can bring in a doctor to substantiate this claim and speculate where the cause of his last bump took place. The doctor not only finds out when the bump occured (which they show on TV) but also discovers a shocking twist - every time Kurt makes the transition from good to bad (and bad to good) he loses a piece of himself. The doctor speculates that one more bump could kill him. So now the dilemma is to keep Insane Kurt who will probably hurt a lot of the locker room, or attempt to bring back Good Kurt who might die in the process.

...brilliant.

[Dangerous A 0]

Did any of that happen on screen? Or are we to assume it happened?

Nail. on. the. head.

 

 

Wrestling is show and tell. There is no room for assuming. If you go that route, it goes over 98% of the wrestling fans heads and when that happens, they stop caring. When they stop caring, you end up with fans who sit on their hands while 2 of the best workers wrestle a great match in silence until the finish because they could give 2 shits about the match except that it's ending. Keep feeding the fans that and then they stop watching and paying and...

 

 

...oh right, that's already fucking happening.