"Heaven and Hell" by Black Sabbath

[AboveAverage484 0]

Well he does have Mötley Crüe in his sig.

[Slayer 0]

I'm amazed no one has truly trashed Crimson Idol over that "Dio Sabbath is the only Sabbath" remark.

I didn't because I (mostly) agree with him

 

While I will recognize what Sabbath (more specifically Iommi) has done for metal, I have never been able to listen to Ozzy Sabbath at all simply for the fact I don't like Ozzy as vocalist at all. The fact Ozzy is notable at all I think is more a testament to the awesome guitarists (Iommi, Rhodes, Wylde and even Lee) behind him than his "singing ability".

[Giuseppe Zangara 0]

I think it's been mentioned in this thread that Ozzy's voice works within the realm of what Sabbath did. He may not be a "great metal singer" or whatever, but that was never the point.

 

But then I hate Dio's voice, so I don't think we're gonna resolve anything.

[Slayer 0]

I have Live Evil, which is Sabbath live in '81 with Dio singing a mix of both his BS songs and Ozzy era songs.

 

Regarding the Ozzy songs, I didn't like his versions of "Iron Man" and "Paranoid", but I thought he did a damn good job on "NIB", "Black Sabbath", "War Pigs" and "Children of the Grave".

[cabbageboy 0]

Here's one thing I've always thought Ozzy had going for him: He's hardly ever campy, nor does he scream in unappealing fashion (not that Dio does). Let's face it, Dio is simply campy. All that shit with crystal balls and medieval times...it's just unintentionally funny. Ditto Bruce Dickenson...I like some Maiden stuff but the guy is so over the top it becomes funny. I mean Run For the Hills? What the fuck does he know about the plight of the American Indian?

 

By Ozzy being campy I don't mean that he isn't sometimes funny, but I don't think anyone ever was supposed to take stuff like Bark at the Moon seriously. Ditto some album covers, they were meant to be silly. But the Ozzy Sabbath stuff? Not at all campy. One listen to Paranoid and you get the following themes:

 

--Vietnam War protest.

--Mental illness

--Isolation and alienation

--Nuclear holocaust

--Drug use due to the previous

--More drug use

 

At least those themes make sense. I know that some have said Ozzy merely sings along with the guitar riff, but that's really only true of Iron Man and Electric Funeral. Ah well at the end of the day it's all a matter of preference.

[Guest Thrashist]

Okay, I respect your musical tastes but I have to say at the same time that this is absurd.

 

It's clear you're not really a fan of heavy metal as a genre, because no metalhead in their right mind would disike both Dio AND Bruce Dickinson. That is just blasphemy. It looks to me you're just into modern rock or what have you, of which Ozzy is accepted and the others are not.

 

It's also hypocritical to pick one song out of the entire Iron Maiden discography to make some point, and then say "Oh well Ozzy has some goofy lyrics too but that's just him playing around". I certainly don't think Iron Maiden's lyrics are entirely free of cheese, as every band has some numbers with subpar lyrics. Most of Maiden's are great though. They're usually about literature, mythological or historical perspectives, and those are topics many people like. How boring would it be if every band wrote lyrics under only certain topics that you deemed credible? Oh and as a side note, Run to the Hills is written from the perspective of both the Native American and the white man.

 

But by far the funniest part of all of this is how you so mightily praise Ozzy Osbourne for the brilliance of his lyrics, yet I guess fail to realize that the person responsible for the large majority of Black Sabbath's lyrics while Ozzy was in the band was, in fact, GEEZER BUTLER.

[Slayer 0]

It's clear you're not really a fan of heavy metal as a genre, because no metalhead in their right mind would disike both Dio AND Bruce Dickinson.  That is just blasphemy.  It looks to me you're just into modern rock or what have you, of which Ozzy is accepted and the others are not.

What he said

 

As for "camp" or, as I imagine you were trying to say, "cheese"... that's just a matter of taste. Hell, I'll admit that I love a good portion of 80's mainstream ("hair" is not the all-encompassing term people use it as) metal, as well as the modern trinity of Euro fantasy power metal (Blind Guardian, Hammerfall and Rhapsody), but as far as most people are concerned, "cheese" is a tired old bias attempting to pass for an argument.

[Guest Crimson Idol]

"All that shit with crystal balls and medieval times...it's just unintentionally funny. Ditto Bruce Dickenson...I like some Maiden stuff but the guy is so over the top it becomes funny. I mean Run For the Hills? "

 

"What the fuck does he know about the plight of the American Indian?""

 

 

 

What do you know about Iron Maiden? Obviously you don't know that Steve Harris wrote 95% of their songs and you probably don't know that Dickinson has a bunch of solo albums with themes that arn't based on crystal balls and shit.

 

Your judging a vocalists ability on what hes singing about and not his abilities.. Not only that, but you are implying that he wrote the music. Now that is funny..

 

Furthermore here is a small list of bands/vocalists that rock hard..

 

AC/DC

Accept

Aerosmith

Alice Cooper

Anthrax

Anvil

Armored Saint

Billy Idol

Black Label Society

Black Sabbath (The Ronnie James Dio Era only)

Blaze Bayley solo stuff

Blind Guardian

Bon Jovi

Bret Michaels solo stuff

Brides of Destruction

Bruce Dickinson

Cinderella

Contraband

Danzig

David Lee Roth

Def Leppard

Demons and Wizards

Dio

Dokken

Ed Guy

Europe

Extreme

Exodus (with old singer)

Faster Pussycat

Firehouse

Fozzy

Gamma Ray

Guardians of the Flame

Guns N’ Roses

Halford

Hammerfall

Hanoi Rocks

Helix

Helloween

Hollywood Rose

Iced Earth

Impellitteri

Iron Maiden

Iron Savior

Jag Panzer

Judas Priest

King Diamond

Kiss

Krokus

LA Guns

Lacuna Coil

Lost Horizon

Loud N Nasty

Luca Turilli

Majesty

Malmsteen

Manowar

Masterplan

Megadeth

Mercyful Fate

Metallica (sure they licked sack on their last album, but they still make the list)

Metal Church

Mob Rules

Monster Magnet

Motley Crue

Motorhead

Murderdolls

Nevermore

Nightwish

Nitro

Nocturnal Rites

Orange Goblin

Poison

Prototype

Psycho Motel

Queensryche

Quiet Riot

Ratt

Rhapsody

Savatage

Saxon

Scorpions

Sentenced

Seven Witches

Skid Row

Slaughter

Sonata Arctica

Steelheart

Steel Prophet

Stratovarius

Stryper

Symphony X

Tad Morose

Tesla

The Darkness

Twisted Sister

Type O Negative

UFO

Vince Neil solo stuff

Vixen

Warrant

Warmachine

WASP

Whitesnake

White Zombie

Winger

Xandria

Zakk Wylde

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

It's easy to not like Dio or Bruce Dickinson and still enjoy heavy metal. I find Dio amusing at the right times, and wouldn't care if Maiden didn't exist, but I still enjoy a LOT of metal bands. Just not power metal.

 

The campy/cheesy argument holds water for the following reason: If you don't find material like that campy or funny, it suggests to me that you're taking it seriously, and if you're taking it seriously, I think your opinion is pretty well shot. 'Least as far as I'm concerned.

 

Besides, who cares if someone is "technically" the best vocalist? Sure, that's got it's own merit, but it doesn't mean the music's listenable. Dream Theater are a bunch of maestros, and the only thing gayer than them is The Mars Volta. Wait, I mean Iced Earth and The Mars Volta.

 

Can Ozzy hit the same high notes as Dio? Obviously not, but he knew what to do with what he had, and that makes a better musician that just being able to scream like a girl.

[CanadianGuitarist 0]

"All that shit with crystal balls and medieval times...it's just unintentionally funny. Ditto Bruce Dickenson...I like some Maiden stuff but the guy is so over the top it becomes funny. I mean Run For the Hills? "

 

"What the fuck does he know about the plight of the American Indian?""

 

 

 

What do you know about Iron Maiden? Obviously you don't know that Steve Harris wrote 95% of their songs and you probably don't know that Dickinson has a bunch of solo albums with themes that arn't based on crystal balls and shit.

 

Your judging a vocalists ability on what hes singing about and not his abilities.. Not only that, but you are implying that he wrote the music. Now that is funny..

 

Furthermore here is a small list of bands/vocalists that rock hard..

 

AC/DC

Accept

Aerosmith

Alice Cooper

Anthrax

Anvil

Armored Saint

Billy Idol

Black Label Society

Black Sabbath (The Ronnie James Dio Era only)

Blaze Bayley solo stuff

Blind Guardian

Bon Jovi

Bret Michaels solo stuff

Brides of Destruction

Bruce Dickinson

Cinderella

Contraband

Danzig

David Lee Roth

Def Leppard

Demons and Wizards

Dio

Dokken

Ed Guy

Europe

Extreme

Exodus (with old singer)

Faster Pussycat

Firehouse

Fozzy

Gamma Ray

Guardians of the Flame

Guns N’ Roses

Halford

Hammerfall

Hanoi Rocks

Helix

Helloween

Hollywood Rose

Iced Earth

Impellitteri

Iron Maiden

Iron Savior

Jag Panzer

Judas Priest

King Diamond

Kiss

Krokus

LA Guns

Lacuna Coil

Lost Horizon

Loud N Nasty

Luca Turilli

Majesty

Malmsteen

Manowar

Masterplan

Megadeth

Mercyful Fate

Metallica (sure they licked sack on their last album, but they still make the list)

Metal Church

Mob Rules

Monster Magnet

Motley Crue

Motorhead

Murderdolls

Nevermore

Nightwish

Nitro

Nocturnal Rites

Orange Goblin

Poison

Prototype

Psycho Motel

Queensryche

Quiet Riot

Ratt

Rhapsody

Savatage

Saxon

Scorpions

Sentenced

Seven Witches

Skid Row

Slaughter

Sonata Arctica

Steelheart

Steel Prophet

Stratovarius

Stryper

Symphony X

Tad Morose

Tesla

The Darkness

Twisted Sister

Type O Negative

UFO

Vince Neil solo stuff

Vixen

Warrant

Warmachine

WASP

Whitesnake

White Zombie

Winger

Xandria

Zakk Wylde

He brought that list out on Live Journal a few weeks ago too...It would have been just as effective written sideways and not in a list, you know.

 

The only credit Ozzy era Sabbath gets is for putting Heavy Metal on the map...

 

Only putting heavy metal on the map? That's a pretty big only. Dr. Jonas Salk didn't only cure polio. (Well, he didn't do anything else that I'm aware of, but you get my drift).

 

First off, nothing will ever touch the original lineup of Black Sabbath in terms of revolutionizing the music business. They (Tony Iommi, Ozzy Osbourne, Geezer Butler, Bill Ward) created heavy metal, plain and simple.

 

With that said, Dio owns Ozzy. It's not even close. Better vocalist by far. I won't even begin to compare the Sabbath albums by each vocalist because they had vastly different styles and purpose. But for what it's worth, albums with Ronnie James Dio rule in large part because of his presence while albums with Ozzy Osbourne rule sometimes in spite of his presence. I'm not saying Ozzy is necessarily an all-together poor vocalist, and he is THE voice of Black Sabbath as we know it, but compare his vocal performances to Dio's and there's just no competition.

 

I'm extremely inclined to agree.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Furthermore here is a small list of bands/vocalists that rock hard..

 

Black Sabbath (The Ronnie James Dio Era only)

Danzig

Def Leppard

Firehouse

Lacuna Coil

Murderdolls

Queensryche

Saxon

Steelheart

Stratovarius

Stryper

Vince Neil solo stuff

Vixen

Warrant

Winger

What? No Bulletboys?

[Slayer 0]

The campy/cheesy argument holds water for the following reason: If you don't find material like that campy or funny, it suggests to me that you're taking it seriously, and if you're taking it seriously, I think your opinion is pretty well shot. 'Least as far as I'm concerned.

I never said I didn't find it campy. I freely admit a good portion of it is campy and/or cheesy (ex: Rhapsody or Manowar's posing "in uniform"). I just don't care because I still think it's good music.

 

Don't act like death metals' shit doesn't stink either, because there's a fair bit of equally laughable stuff in that in genre, and this is coming from someone who is a big fan of the Florida and Gothenburg groups.

 

Besides, who cares if someone is "technically" the best vocalist? Sure, that's got it's own merit, but it doesn't mean the music's listenable. Dream Theater are a bunch of maestros, and the only thing gayer than them is The Mars Volta. Wait, I mean Iced Earth and The Mars Volta.

Yeah, well (insert name of death metal band you like) is gay!

 

...so there [/argument]

 

Can Ozzy hit the same high notes as Dio? Obviously not, but he knew what to do with what he had, and that makes a better musician that just being able to scream like a girl.

I will give Ozzy credit for two things. 1) Hooking up with excellent guitarists, and 2) Good self-marketing, even as far as his horrible TV show

 

Just so you don't think I'm picking entirely on you (not that you care, I imagine, but still), I don't care for a good number of bands in Crimson Idol's list

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

The campy/cheesy argument holds water for the following reason: If you don't find material like that campy or funny, it suggests to me that you're taking it seriously, and if you're taking it seriously, I think your opinion is pretty well shot. 'Least as far as I'm concerned.

I never said I didn't find it campy. I freely admit a good portion of it is campy and/or cheesy (ex: Rhapsody or Manowar's posing "in uniform"). I just don't care because I still think it's good music.

 

Don't act like death metals' shit doesn't stink either, because there's a fair bit of equally laughable stuff in that in genre, and this is coming from someone who is a big fan of the Florida and Gothenburg groups.

 

 

 

Can Ozzy hit the same high notes as Dio? Obviously not, but he knew what to do with what he had, and that makes a better musician that just being able to scream like a girl.

I will give Ozzy credit for two things. 1) Hooking up with excellent guitarists, and 2) Good self-marketing, even as far as his horrible TV show

There's such a creature as too cheesy, though.

 

Cheesy Nerdy: Power Metal :: Mindlessly cheesy violent: Death Metal. I happen to prefer mindless violence.

 

Also, I readily admit there's a TON of really incredibly bad death metal in the world. I still like Lividity and Avulsed, but I admit their own cheese factor much as you do with, say, Stratovarius.

 

Anyway, back to Ozzy Sabbath vs. Other Sabbaths..

 

The early lineup definitely broke more new ground. At the time of the release of their debut and followup, what was existant that sounded like them? Nearly nothing. Grimy blues had been around for years, but intentionally evil and creepy grimy blues from a bunch of rock musicians when everybody was about to get burnt out on being a hippy?

 

Perfect material with perfect timing and perfect production. They're one of the bands who I consider hit the nail directly on the head.

 

What new ground did Dio break with Sabbath that he didn't do with say, Rainbow? Butler and Ward also become almost bit parts in the grand scheme of the post-Ozzy years, and as a band driven by the rhythm section, that's a bad thing. Particularly in production. The first album has this thick murky delicious sonic background, which gets traded in for theatrical overproduction, and I can't deal with that.

[Slayer 0]

I've never denied the original Black Sabbath lineups' influence on metal. I just can't listen to Ozzy-era Black Sabbath for shit.

 

And I don't even like Stratovarius, jerk!

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

 

You love it.

[Slayer 0]

While last year's drama among members of the band, as well as Timo Tolkki's apparent mental breakdown, was fairly entertaining, most of their music still isn't great

[Guest Crimson Idol]

gonna see good ol stratovarius at the end of sept

[Red Baron 0]

Most European power metal bands are cheesy with Stratovarious and Rhapsody leading the way.

[Guest Crimson Idol]

Cheese rocks

[The Metal Maniac 0]

Most European power metal bands are cheesy with Stratovarious and Rhapsody leading the way.

 

I don't really think you need the qualifier "European". Most power metal is cheesy, and I'm saying that as a guy who loves power metal.

 

Hell, even the name power metal sounds kinda cheesy. But like Slayer said, who gives a fuck? If it sounds good, I can forgive some silliness.

 

And I own that Stratovarius CD.

[AboveAverage484 0]

"All that shit with crystal balls and medieval times...it's just unintentionally funny. Ditto Bruce Dickenson...I like some Maiden stuff but the guy is so over the top it becomes funny. I mean Run For the Hills? "

 

"What the fuck does he know about the plight of the American Indian?""

 

 

 

What do you know about Iron Maiden? Obviously you don't know that Steve Harris wrote  95% of their songs and you probably don't know that Dickinson has a bunch of solo albums with themes that arn't based on crystal balls and shit.

 

Your judging a vocalists ability on what hes singing about and not his abilities.. Not only that, but you are implying that he wrote the music.  Now that is funny..

 

Furthermore here is a small list of bands/vocalists that rock hard..

 

AC/DC

Accept

Aerosmith

Alice Cooper

Anthrax

Anvil

Armored Saint

Billy Idol

Black Label Society

Black Sabbath (The Ronnie James Dio Era only)

Blaze Bayley solo stuff

Blind Guardian

Bon Jovi

Bret Michaels solo stuff

Brides of Destruction

Bruce Dickinson

Cinderella

Contraband

Danzig

David Lee Roth

Def Leppard

Demons and Wizards

Dio

Dokken

Ed Guy

Europe

Extreme

Exodus (with old singer)

Faster Pussycat

Firehouse

Fozzy

Gamma Ray

Guardians of the Flame

Guns N’ Roses

Halford

Hammerfall

Hanoi Rocks

Helix

Helloween

Hollywood Rose

Iced Earth

Impellitteri

Iron Maiden

Iron Savior

Jag Panzer

Judas Priest

King Diamond

Kiss

Krokus

LA Guns

Lacuna Coil

Lost Horizon

Loud N Nasty

Luca Turilli

Majesty

Malmsteen

Manowar

Masterplan

Megadeth

Mercyful Fate

Metallica (sure they licked sack on their last album, but they still make the list)

Metal Church

Mob Rules

Monster Magnet

Motley Crue

Motorhead

Murderdolls

Nevermore

Nightwish

Nitro

Nocturnal Rites

Orange Goblin

Poison

Prototype

Psycho Motel

Queensryche

Quiet Riot

Ratt

Rhapsody

Savatage

Saxon

Scorpions

Sentenced

Seven Witches

Skid Row

Slaughter

Sonata Arctica

Steelheart

Steel Prophet

Stratovarius

Stryper

Symphony X

Tad Morose

Tesla

The Darkness

Twisted Sister

Type O Negative

UFO

Vince Neil solo stuff

Vixen

Warrant

Warmachine

WASP

Whitesnake

White Zombie

Winger

Xandria

Zakk Wylde

Where the fuck is Slayer and Pantera? Too much hair metal shit on there, I'm surprised AoO didn't rip this list a new asshole, especially since he fucking loathes Def Leppard, the Scorpions, and King Diamond, ha.

[Guest Crimson Idol]

Don't like Slayer or Pantera all that much

Although, Skeletons of Society by Slayer rocks..

[Styles 0]

They both rock, any fan of metal should be into both.

[Styles 0]

And just because it's so damn hard to do (nearly impossible dare I say), here's my 10 favorite Sabbath tunes in no order but album release.

 

The Wizard

War Pigs

Children Of The Grave

Snowblind

Supernaut

Sabbath Bloody Sabbath

Symptom Of The Universe

Heaven and Hell

Children Of The Sea

Computer God

[BUTT 0]

Firehouse does not rock hard. They're best known for power ballads and their up-tempo songs were quite lethargic. Not to mention their song "All She Wrote" totally rips of Ratt's "Round and Round".

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Do people just not have the patience for the medley tracks on the self-titled? I think those two tracks are in the five best they've ever done. Christ, those are the two songs that made me want to play the guitar and bass. I can't believe more people aren't grabbed by them.

[AboveAverage484 0]

Do people just not have the patience for the medley tracks on the self-titled? I think those two tracks are in the five best they've ever done. Christ, those are the two songs that made me want to play the guitar and bass. I can't believe more people aren't grabbed by them.

I think "Warning" is the best guitar work Tony Iommi ever did, it's just overlong for my tastes.

[Styles 0]

Do people just not have the patience for the medley tracks on the self-titled? I think those two tracks are in the five best they've ever done. Christ, those are the two songs that made me want to play the guitar and bass. I can't believe more people aren't grabbed by them.

I LOVE Behind The Wall Of Sleep. Like I said, its impossible to choose just 10 and I'd probably after a night's sleep sub out some and add others. Behind The Wall Of Sleep and probably N.I.B make it if it's all Ozzy tracks.

[cabbageboy 0]

I see I stirred some shit with the last post about campy, cheesy stuff. I was merely citing Run For the Hills as an example of an over the top Maiden song. Over the top due to its content and Dickenson's theatrical delivery. This isn't to say I hate the song or anything (actually I like it).

 

In regards to Sabbath's debut, Warning is definitely a cool song but the overlong comments are certainly justified. It's far and away Sabbath's most unsettling album to listen to, hell NIB still has the power to creep people out. Anyone else like Wicked World off that album? That's an underrated song.

 

Here are some other underrated Sabbath songs from the Ozzy era, or maybe not underrated as much as not played on the radio like Iron Man, Paranoid, etc.:

 

Hand of Doom, Into the Void, After Forever, Wheels of Confusion, Cornucopia, A National Acrobat, Killing Yourself to Live, Hole in the Sky, Megalomania, The Writ.

 

I've already mentioned the last 2 Ozzy albums, which aren't as strong but have their moments.

[Styles 0]

I love After Forever.

 

Oh, and you're obviously not a Maiden fan if you choose Run To The Freakin' Hills as your example of campiness. I mean, jeez, the whole Seventh Son of a Seventh Son synthed to the max science fiction concept album is right there, yet you choose one of their most straight up thrashing songs with some pretty clever lyrics too. The video though is hilarious but intentionally so with the old stock footage of cowboys and indians going at it.