A look back at Lesnar vs Goldberg

[tbondrage99 0]

The match was supposed to be Hogan/Warrior, but it became Hogan/Warrior II instead

I think even that might be being generous, and we ALL know how bad Hogan/Warrior II was.

 

As for everyone forgetting it again come 6 months from now, I serioulsy doubt that. The match was hyped big time for WMXX, and well lets face it, if we still remember Hogan/Warrior II from a Halloween Havoc then its probally safe to say that we will be comparing future debocles.

[King Cucaracha 0]

Plus the reports you hear of the guys backstage laughing it up over the reactions. I still feel the match was booked to be bad, just to humiliate the two.

 

That's just a stupid conspiricy theory? If the match was pre-planned by a road agent then they would have had to have more than FOUR days to do it. I just think they were both phoning it in because they weren't bothered about the match since they were both leaving.

To be honest, if I were getting that reaction, I'd have phoned it in.

 

As for your point about having more than four days...if they changed the ending, they'd have to change a chunk of the match they had planned. Who's to say they weren't told to wrestle a slower match at the time?

 

It's obvious from the backstage reaction I already mentioned that no-one gave a damn about Goldberg and Lesnar. I'm not saying the bad match wasn't GBerg and Lesnar's fault, but I feel that someone had a hand in making the match a little slower. Call me suspicious, but I still reckon the way the match was laid out did neither man any favours.

 

Since when was Great "**" ratings? Cause thats as high as possible I'd go for their best match (Judgment Day 2003). Survivor Series 2002 was maybe *, and Rumble was about the same. Please, point out these great, or **** matches Brock had with anyone besides Kurt Angle?

 

Oh, they have to be **** matches. Why not make it ***** so you can prove your point better?

 

I'd give Show/Brock more than **. Benoit and Eddie have been mentioned. Taker at Unforgiven was solid, HIAC was great. He had a decent match with Mysterio on Smackdown when debuting the BrockLock. Rock/Brock from SS2002 was good. I don't give a crap who you think 'carried' it, so I'm counting it. You're also not counting Triple Threats...conveniently ignoring Lesnar/Show/Angle. I enjoyed Brock/Hogan from before SS2002 as well.

 

That's just for starters. Considering some of the matches he had were against the Billy Gunn's and Hardcore Holly's, or were extended squashes, I'd say that's pretty impressive.

[Guest Adrian 3:16]

It really wasn't a bad match at all, it told a good story and it had a good structure... but I guess since the fans don't care about that and only want to sound clever going "oh they were lazy", "they didn't take stupid bumps so the match must be shit." or "Goldberg = OWNED" then it was always going to fail. Shame really considering that these are the so called SMART marks.

I don't understand how the crowd reaction for the match could be interpreted as a "smark" thing. That was a NEW YORK thing. If New Yorkers don't like you, they will let you know in no uncertain terms. Watch any wrestling show or sporting event there and you'll see what I mean. And that's why I love those crowds- one way or the other they get into it instead of sitting on their hands like the Nassau crowd a short hop away, or even here in Jersey.

 

And I don't see why anyone would hold the booing against the crowd to begin with- that was the most entertaining aspect of the match. That match told no story- the story was 2 guys leaving and getting heckled accordingly. And I can't feel too bad for them because they really dogged it out there- especially Brock. I don't buy this "that's how the match was booked" theory; I sincerely doubt Vince told them to go out there and suck as bad as possible. Its too bad to because that was one of the matches I was really looking forward to seeing, as well as the closest thing we would get to an Austin match against either man. As it turned out the match was still entertaining, just not in the way anyone thought going in.

[King Cucaracha 0]

I don't buy this "that's how the match was booked" theory; I sincerely doubt Vince told them to go out there and suck as bad as possible.

 

See, you're missing my point. Of course he didn't send them out there to suck. But I still think the match was booked slowly with the possibility of the NY crowd shitting over it.

[Guest Adrian 3:16]

And you're missing my point. They could've put on a better match if they really wanted to. They chose not to.

 

Let's say you're right. Do you think anyone backstage could've reprimanded them for having a GOOD match, especially when they were both out the door as soon as it was over anyway? If they really wanted to, they could've said, "fuck it, this is our last night here, let's make this happen and go out with a bang."

 

They didn't.

[King Cucaracha 0]

Believe me, I'm not saying Lesnar and Goldberg shouldn't have tried to pick the pace up. I'm not saying the bad match wasn't their fault. All I'm saying I feel the match might have been laid out slow.

 

Whever they should have picked up the pace is a different issue. Firstly, why would they want to? It was obvious a hefty portion of the crowd would have shat on whatever they did. Secondly, and I agree, they possibly couldn't. I wouldn't imagine either had much experiences of changing matches on the fly.

 

My point isn't concerning whever they could/should have made the match better, because I agree that they could/should.

 

My point is that I feel the match was based slowly in the hope that the NY crowd would shit over it, thus softening the blow of losing the two of them to the mark crowd.

[Guest Adrian 3:16]

Whever they should have picked up the pace is a different issue. Firstly, why would they want to?

Well I can't speak for anyone else, but I would have tried had I been in their position just out of pride for my work. Obviously Brock and Goldberg come from a different school of thought.

 

And you might be on to something with "softening the blow" by making them look bad, but I think they did more to make Brock look bad in that final Smackdown in AC when they had the whole Smackdown roster turn their back on him (which probably wouldn't have been booked a week earlier) and Austin smacked him around- plus the little verbal jabs at him after Mania. As for Goldberg, he was hardly ever used properly in WWE so making him look bad was nothing new.

[King Cucaracha 0]

As for Goldberg, he was hardly ever used properly in WWE so making him look bad was nothing new.

 

The times he did look good, was when he was using the smashmouth style. Vince knew that, which makes the decision to have a slow match curious.

 

And I agree on the smacking about of Lesnar...the match was bad for him...the Stunner was the final nail in the coffin.

[Guest Man Of 1,004 Modes]

Oh, they have to be **** matches. Why not make it ***** so you can prove your point better?

 

I'd give Show/Brock more than **. Benoit and Eddie have been mentioned. Taker at Unforgiven was solid, HIAC was great. He had a decent match with Mysterio on Smackdown when debuting the BrockLock. Rock/Brock from SS2002 was good. I don't give a crap who you think 'carried' it, so I'm counting it. You're also not counting Triple Threats...conveniently ignoring Lesnar/Show/Angle. I enjoyed Brock/Hogan from before SS2002 as well.

 

That's just for starters. Considering some of the matches he had were against the Billy Gunn's and Hardcore Holly's, or were extended squashes, I'd say that's pretty impressive.

Lets see....he's had good matches with good workers. Doesn't surprise me there. Angle? Eddie? Benoit? All very good workers. Mysterio for a CW is good, but that match wasn't anything special at all. Big Show for a big man is good.

 

But let's not forget, Brock had been around for 2 years without any real breaks, and all he had was 5 or 6 good matches? Sure, label him great when there is no proof of him carrying workers, or even working great matches with mediocre wrestlers. He couldn't even have great matches on a regular basis with Angle, when BOTH were healthy. The Summerslam 2003 match was boring as watching paint dry, and the less said about the Iron Man crap the better.

 

I'm not saying Brock is a bad worker, just average. There's a LARGE difference between average and great.

[King Cucaracha 0]

You can't carry 'average' workers to ***** matches, whever you're Kurt Angle or not.

 

As for your point...lets name the great RVD matches between Lesnar's joining and now. Or Booker T. Or Jericho.

 

Saying Lesnar is average because his only good matches are against good wrestlers is ridiculous. Saying he's average because he isn't carrying bad wrestlers is equally as ridiculous. Not being able to carry a match doesn't make you an average wrestler.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

As for everyone forgetting it again come 6 months from now, I serioulsy doubt that. The match was hyped big time for WMXX, and well lets face it, if we still remember Hogan/Warrior II from a Halloween Havoc then its probally safe to say that we will be comparing future debocles.

Yes, but you and I aren't the average wrestling fan.

 

The average wrestling fan, even a lot of WWE writers, it seems, can't remember anything from 1997 other than Montreal and the WrestleMania "I Quit" match. As Scott Keith always is writing, that might as well be 20 years ago to most fans.

[bob_barron 0]

Brock is/was a very good worker. He controlled the pace of the Eddy match as he was on offence 90% of the match. Look at matches like Big Show v. Eddy where Eddy gets the piss beaten him out of the whole match. Not as good.

 

And Big Show still isn't that great yet Brock was able to pull a miracle out of him with the stretcher match at Judgement Day.

 

I love watching Brock v. Goldberg. Just watching the crowd tell both men: We hate you now leave was beautiful. At one point Brock locked in a bearhug and we chanted: HOLY SHIT HOLY SHIT.

 

Brock's face turning bright red was goldage.

 

The Summerslam 2003 match was AWESOME. I loved watching Brock just dominate Angle the whole match while Kurt does everything he can to outsmart Brock and win the match. Sure Lesnar was made to look like a bitch but I don't care. You need to watch it again.

 

The first 30 minutes of the ironman were eh as Lesnar stalled way too much. I really enjoyed the last half- I was out of breath from watching it. They need to show it uncut though since the commercials kept killing the momentum

[SamoaRowe 0]

Brock/Angle at Summerslam 03 was the best part of the show, so I agree on it's excellence.

 

The Iron Man... I couldn't really get into. I guess it was because it had been leaked to me that Angle was losing, which killed my interest. I hate watching long matches when I already know who's going over.

[humongous2002 0]

Lesnar was above average IMO and not as great as some people think he was, he was only good when he was wrestling guys like Angle or Eddy while his matches with Taker(HITC) and Show(Stretcher match) were ok because they were gimmick matches.

[Guest Man Of 1,004 Modes]

When did RVD come into this argument? ncase veryone forgot, I'm not really fond of either him OR Booker T, so using them to spite me won't work. Hence why I don't even watch Smackdown anymore.

[King Cucaracha 0]

When did RVD come into this argument? ncase veryone forgot, I'm not really fond of either him OR Booker T, so using them to spite me won't work. Hence why I don't even watch Smackdown anymore.

It came into it to prove your reasoning for Lesnar being average was faulty at best.

[Guest Man Of 1,004 Modes]

When did RVD come into this argument? ncase veryone forgot, I'm not really fond of either him OR Booker T, so using them to spite me won't work. Hence why I don't even watch Smackdown anymore.

It came into it to prove your reasoning for Lesnar being average was faulty at best.

So whats an example of an average worker? Someone like Billy Gunn, who sucks, or someone like Rob Conway who's stuck in a stupid gimmick that won't elevate him above curtain jerker?

 

An above average worker in my OPINION (gasp, what a concept!) is someone who can have good/great matches with good workers, and have decent/OKish matches with not so good workers. It's either hit or miss with Brock. Hit when he's fighting an Angle or Benoit. Miss when he's fighting a Cena or Holly.