Thoughts on HHH

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

Just doing some thinking:

 

1.) By being the man who the flagship television program was built around in 2002 and 2003 and providing steady ratings, has HHH proven himself as a man the company can build the show around (at least on a financial level) despite the objections of many?

 

2.)With HHH's supposed love of old fashioned wrestling, do you think he'd do a better job running the company than Vince is?

 

Just trying to drum up a little conversation, or as some would put it "not contribute."

[Guest Choken One]

I can't really answer question #1...

 

But clearly he has a deeper love for the industry then Vince does.

[Steviekick 0]

1. Although the HHH-centered Raw of 03-04 ratings stayed pretty much the same, I wouldn't necessarily say that you could build a show around. Regardless who he feuded with (HBK, RVD, Kane, Steiner, Booker T), there was no signifigant ratings increase. The only constant was HHH. Basically, there ratings/attendance really did not increase in over a year of HHH at the forefront, so I would say that you could center the promotion around HHH, but unsuccesfully because he can't draw an additional audience.

 

2. HHH would be just as bad, regardless if he was an active wrestler or not. First, he seems to be very biased as to who he works with now and to what extent he will/won't put them over. I could really see him playing favorites in the front office as to who would main event, hold titles, and such. Secondly, we all know his opinion of cruiserweights and anyone with an unusual wrestling style. With him dictating how everyone would work, every show would look like WM XV from a stylistic point. And that would suck.

[Guest Anglesault]

1) HHH, much like Angle, can't have the show built around him for much longer, simply because of all the injuries. Have him go a full year without hurting himself, and I'd have faith. You can't have the main focus of the show go months at a time without getting in the ring.

 

2) HHH has some serious flaws in his wrestling logic. He's pretty stubborn when something's not working at all (Kevin Nash) has an awful habit of repeatedly falling back on what works instead of trying something new (HBK) and seems to go straight to huge gimmick matches (HiaC) when his feuds run out of steam rather than try and fix it a conventional way. Also, someone who goes out of his way to expose flaws of wrestlers (RVD) wouldn't really be a great boss.

[Guest Man Of 1,004 Modes]

I can't really answer question #1...

 

But clearly he has a deeper love for the industry then Vince does.

I'll give him that. He may not be a great worker, but his dedication for wrestling makes up for it. As far as a worker, he's pretty good, he can have great matches with some guys, and still have decent matches with not so good people.

 

Sure, his politics backstage isn't something to brag about, but at least he cares about "the business".

 

I think though Trips gets TOO MUCH hate. For instance, his dominance of the World Title scene of late 2002-2003. I actually am glad he didn't lose the title to Nash, Steiner, RVD, Goldberg (@ SSlam at least) and Kane because at the times, niether could be built up as credible champions. Kane, although I like, was being used for midcard purposes, Nash sucked, Steiner BOMBED, Goldberg sucked, and RVD has too many flaws to be a legit World Champion in WWE.

 

<<Closet HHH fan since 1998.

 

Edit: I said I was glad I didn't lose the title instead of he. God, dang it I'm on a role of messing up

[Use Your Illusion 0]

I think Triple H's mega title reign gave the belt an abundance of credibility that has seen it surpass the real WWE title in terms of value.

 

I've been a fan of Hunter's ever since he set foot into WWE, and I'd rather the business maintain its' focus on someone like Hunter, as opposed to someone like Hogan.

 

That is, however, just choosing the lesser of two evils. Guys like Jericho, Benoit & Guerrero are the most reliable workers in the company, if not America, and I think it's been a great move by Vince to base his main storylines and angles on these individuals.

[Guest Choken One]

I strongly believe Triple H looked back at 2003 as the failure it was...being stuck with Nash, Booker, Steiner and Goldberg did him no good.

 

Didn't help his credibility. I have a feeling once he settled down with Stephanie, he was relieved of that "I need to dominate" the business feeling and knew he was now next in line for the company and realize he had to build others up to make the company worthwhile when he and stephanie takes over.

 

Perhaps being with Flair finally forced him to revert to the old ways...Whatever caused the change in HHH...I'm glad it happened.

[Just call me Dan 0]

OK, I hate to move a bit off topic, but I've been wondering thoughts on this. What's up with the body? He really looks like shit compared to his days in 2002 or '03, and resembles more of his 1998 self. For a man who supposedly doesn't drink and is incredibly focused in the guym, what gives?

 

Is he pushing his emulation of Flair to the point to where he wants to be known as a guy who "didn't have the best body, but had everything else to make up for it"?

 

Seriously, since he got married the gut is in full effect. You used to be able to see the entire logo on his trunks flat, now he has the A-Train tights thing going.

[JasonX 0]

I strongly believe Triple H looked back at 2003 as the failure it was...being stuck with Nash, Booker, Steiner and Goldberg did him no good.

 

Didn't help his credibility. I have a feeling once he settled down with Stephanie, he was relieved of that "I need to dominate" the business feeling and knew he was now next in line for the company and realize he had to build others up to make the company worthwhile when he and stephanie takes over.

 

Perhaps being with Flair finally forced him to revert to the old ways...Whatever caused the change in HHH...I'm glad it happened.

Or how about this theory?

 

HHH knows that Benoit and Eddy Guerrero were going to get the belts with Benoit being a lame duck champ for him and EG being one that the company was going to let run with the belt for a yet to be determined time. So HHH has decided to use all of his political pull to do everything humanly possible to make Benoit look like a million bucks so that he eclipses Guerrero in terms of crediblity. Why you might ask? Because Benoit is just babysitting the belt for HHH while EG is going to be running around with the SD belt for who knows how long. So he's going to do everything to make Benoit's run be as memorable and important as possible so it totally overshadows Guerrero's.

 

Of course HHH has something else going on in his favor, mainly Vince and his SD sucks/Raw rules logic and obsession with getting Bradshaw over. So HHH doesn't have to openly do anything to damage EG directly since Vince is doing his dirty work for him without having to make HHH get his hands dirty sabatoging Guerrero...

[Lil' Bitch 0]

2.)With HHH's supposed love of old fashioned wrestling, do you think he'd do a better job running the company than Vince is?

 

Yes because HHH would actually know what he is doing unlike Vince who lost his mind a long time ago and proved that by going through with the Katie Vick to which HHH himself didn't want to do.

 

I actually am glad I didn't lose the title to Nash, Steiner, RVD, Goldberg (@ SSlam at least) and Kane because at the times, niether could be built up as credible champions.

 

I agree about Nash. I had hopes for Steiner until I saw the RR fiasco.

 

I disagree about RVD, he was insanely over in 2002 and had a very successful run as Intercontinental Champion, when it was time for him to move into the world title picture, instead of him fulfulling his destiny, HHH destroyed his dream and killed his heat down drastically. It would be the equivalent of doing that to John Cena later on this year if they tried a similar scenario.

 

I thought Kane had a pretty good chance since he had just gotten back not to long ago at that time, had a complete makeover in character with a new look and new theme music (although yes I agree giving him a fun loving personality was a failure). I just felt it sucked since he was pretty over and was plagued by HHH at the very start of the feud so I figured Kane would get his revenge in the end and nope he got killed off too at No Mercy.

 

Goldberg was a double edged sword since I couldn't fucking stand Bill ever, I wanted HHH that night and he did much to my satisfaction, but seeing how insane and I mean INSANE Goldberg was over with Phoenix that night, it made me wish HHH never hurt his groin and they kept it a singles match with Goldberg winning, I would even go as far as saying the buyrate for SummerSlam might have been higher since I know they would have built up the main event to a great degree.

 

Perhaps being with Flair finally forced him to revert to the old ways...Whatever caused the change in HHH...I'm glad it happened.

 

Word.

[Enigma 0]

I strongly believe Triple H looked back at 2003 as the failure it was...being stuck with Nash, Booker, Steiner and Goldberg did him no good.

 

Didn't help his credibility. I have a feeling once he settled down with Stephanie, he was relieved of that "I need to dominate" the business feeling and knew he was now next in line for the company and realize he had to build others up to make the company worthwhile when he and stephanie takes over.

 

Perhaps being with Flair finally forced him to revert to the old ways...Whatever caused the change in HHH...I'm glad it happened.

Dave Meltzer claimed that Ric Flair had a talk with Triple H and basically told him he's got a spot in wrestling for life because he's so good, so he doesn't need to be all political and holding people back and Meltzer said this has caused HHH to behave a bit more.

[Use Your Illusion 0]

I always wondered how Triple H could hang around someone like Flair, who's been in the business twice as long as anyone else in WWE, and not wake up to himself in terms of his political backstage antics. One may argue Flair isn't one to talk, but it's still comforting Flair has his head on straight and is feeding Hunter the right advice.

 

UYI

[Hektik 0]

I have no problem with HHH, he is a good wrestler. I feel people don't rate him properly. He was way overrated in 2000 yet he was underrated last year and up until recently. He does know how to properly structure a match and he gets what the main event style should be. It should have old school storytelling with modern day action. I was never a big fan of his in the past, I didn't think much of him when I first saw him in WCW. It's funny because Flair didn't either when he was head booker. He put Alex Wright (who he thought would be a future superstar) over HHH at Starrcade. He gave Wright an undeafeted streak and didn't do much with HHH. Now Flair is saying how great HHH is but didn't do anything with him when he had the chance.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

I think as much as we moaned and complained and cried and begged to differ regarding HHH's untouchable status and championship reigns in 02-03, it's actually made it that more impressive when he taps out to the crossface or jobs for Benjamin or what have you. Bitch about the angles he was in (Katie Vick, racism) all you want but the "OMG POPULAR UPPER MIDCARDER SQUASHED IN PRIME OF CAREER" shit actually paid off now that he's doing the job for guys who can actually carry the company in the main event for several years to come (Benoit and Benjamin to name two. I think Booker and RVD would have run way out of gas or appeal if the trigger was pulled for them.)

 

If Goldberg were still employed, the rest of this board, including the ones that thought that Bill was providing something refreshing to the show, would suddently be on my anti-Goldberg bandwagon the moment he decided to campaign to go over Benoit for the belt (and you know he would.)

So give him credit for that.

 

HHH may run the business, but I sort of doubt he'll have total control. What he has going against him is that he doesn't have the biological name of McMahon, and Shane does. And I think it's pretty clear to any casual WWE observer that Vince sees the company as a serious heritage father-to-son sort of deal since the company's roots can be traced all the way up to Jess McMahon running programs in MSG. Remember that WM20 opening production with the baby? Exactly.

 

I forsee HHH being involved in the business until he's near Vince's age, though I think if he DOES get control then it'll just be more of the same as you see under Vince. He has that interest in bodybuilders who worship themselves and pushes based on physiques won't be all that uncommon. He'd probably leave room for technical matches, though.

 

I imagine Steph will get out of the business once Vince is no longer with us. She will want her share of money/stock/etc of course, but I'll be shocked if she's booking or touring around with the crew. I always figured she was involved on-camera simply because Vince was trying to get as much of his family involved as possible. She seemed so shy and not ready for TV when she first appeared, it certainly seemed a possiblity that she was just simply giving into pressure.

[Secret Agent 0]

I agree with JOTW here. First off it WON'T be HHH running WWE when Vince retires, it will be Shane McMahon. Secondly, to even think that it would be HHH or even Steph for that matter running WWE is just plain dumb.

 

Also, I see Vince running WWE until he dies honestly.

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

OK, I hate to move a bit off topic, but I've been wondering thoughts on this. What's up with the body? He really looks like shit compared to his days in 2002 or '03, and resembles more of his 1998 self. For a man who supposedly doesn't drink and is incredibly focused in the guym, what gives?

 

There are a few possibilities for this. He could be off the juice and therefore be returning to a more normal size or he finally put 2 and 2 together and realized he either has to be a wrestler or a bodybuilder.

[Use Your Illusion 0]

Kevin Nash said that Triple H has been overworking so much that he has simply let his body slip, as he hasn't the time or energy to maintain his old physique.

 

He looks fine, just not as super-buff as his younger Evolution buddies.

 

UYI

[haVoc 0]

I also think Triple H got off the juice. He had so much muscle that it turned to fat and it's going to take him a while to naturally get his body to cut and build up again. Maybe Flair did have something to do with it? Maybe Steph and others told him to stop because of all the deaths in the last few years?

 

Whatever it is, it helped his work in the ring a ton after losing that extra muscle mass. Something just about all of us been saying he should do since his return in 2002.

[Guest Goodear]

I agree with JOTW here. First off it WON'T be HHH running WWE when Vince retires, it will be Shane McMahon. Secondly, to even think that it would be HHH or even Steph for that matter running WWE is just plain dumb.

 

I can't say that I agree. Shane has shown virtually no interest in running the day-to-day interests of the wrestling aspect of the company while Steph is seemingly up to her wrists in it. It would make far less sense to put a suit like Shane would be at that point than to entrust the running of the wrestling operations to the people that seem to be doing it already. Shane is so set to be the Linda to Steph's Vince.

 

Also, I see Vince running WWE until he dies honestly.

 

This I agree with totally.

 

RE: Triple H being better for the company than Vince.

 

I don't know. I think it might lead to a more old school feel for the matches as Triple H is a huge NWA buff which is great for me because I love that style. But I just don't see the company being as profitable without Vince at the helm. Vince's the greatest wrestling promoter of our times from a money standpoint.

 

RE: Triple H's physique

 

Who cares if he's softer looking if he wrestles twice as well! He's finally back to a semblance of shape that can move and I say god bless him. I don't need to see him ever pose down with Scott Steiner ever again.

[Guest Y2G]

1. Triple H was a good choice to build the show around. It was just too much of him. Even your main man should have a rest once in a while and not hog the TV time.

 

2. Vince is here for a very long time buddy. Many things can happen until he retires.

[humongous2002 0]

A thread praising HHH? I thought i would never see the day but i guess hell has frozen over. IMO HHH is still a political scumbag, always trying to steal the spotlight from others just to satisfy his ego. Vince tried to build WWE around HHH as their #1 face back in 2002 and it bombed, he lost the undisputed title a month after Mania and he turned heel by Summerslam. Then as a heel champion he made sure to destroy any chances for RVD,Jericho,Book and even Kane to become main eventers, and even though he's been doing the right thing for the last few months RAW is still his show instead of being Benoit's show who happens to be the World heavyweight champ. HHH wishes he was Flair but he is starting to look like Dusty Rhodes due to the lack of steroid injections.

[Guest Loss]

Question --

 

Why is HHH the one who gets all the criticism? Why is there not more criticism levied toward Vince for allowing him to basically do what he wants? Vince has the power to stop it and HHH is only doing what he is allowed to do. I don't agree with many things he's done myself, but VINCE is the reason the past few years have seen a downturn, HHH is just the guy who's gotten in his ear.

[Guest Y2G]

IMO HHH is still a political scumbag, always trying to steal the spotlight from others just to satisfy his ego.

Yes, i agree.

 

But he is a hell of a good wrestler and even if i don't like his real life persona, i have to admit that he is that damn good :-)

[Guest duck420]

i think flair smacked some sense into hunter

[humongous2002 0]

i think flair smacked some sense into hunter

He should've done that back in 2002.

[Guest Trivia247]

Question --

 

Why is HHH the one who gets all the criticism? Why is there not more criticism levied toward Vince for allowing him to basically do what he wants? Vince has the power to stop it and HHH is only doing what he is allowed to do. I don't agree with many things he's done myself, but VINCE is the reason the past few years have seen a downturn, HHH is just the guy who's gotten in his ear.

Too true HHH couldn't be the boogieman he is today without Vince not caring about what he does.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

A thread praising HHH? I thought i would never see the day but i guess hell has frozen over. IMO HHH is still a political scumbag, always trying to steal the spotlight from others just to satisfy his ego.

To me it doesn't matter as long as the matches are good.

 

And the matches recently, while a shadow of his 2000 work, are much better than the shallow performances of 02-03.

 

HHH can be as big a political scumbag as he wants as long as the matches are good IMO. So was Ric Flair.

[Guest duck420]

i like watching triple h do a blade job. especially now that hes fat. he can blade in every match and i will be satisfied even if he only sits in the corner like he did at mania

[Guest Loss]

I'm sick of people saying that about Flair, because it's simply not true.

 

There is no black and white, no 100% right and 100% wrong. Just like real life, there's typically more than face value to any story. Ric Flair stayed on top because Ric Flair staying on top was best for business. The fact that he looked good as a result (which he rarely did) was incidental. Flair was the best worker in the company during his heyday. He was the best interview. He was the biggest draw. He was the biggest name. His spot was not an issue, nor should it have been. He was not keeping anyone else from reaching his level because quite simply, no one else was even close to his level. On the rare occasions he did have a peer (Steamboat was the closest thing, and that was only in terms of workrate), he put him over to elevate the feud. He tried passing the torch to Sting and it didn't work. He tried pushing Brian Pillman and it was stopped as soon as Ole took Flair's booking job.

 

If you're using Mick Foley's book as a source for the attitude toward Flair, you're only getting one side of the story. Besides, Flair told him to stop taking so many bumps or he'd end up in a wheelchair by the time he was 30. Foley now says he wishes he would have focused more on fundamentals and less on bumping. So what's the issue here? Flair was the one who hired Foley and the one that pushed him strong in the tag division in 1994 in gimmick matches that played to his strengths.

 

Comparing him to HHH is ridiculous. Flair never married anyone with connections and he didn't sleep his way to the top of the promotion. HHH didn't get his push because of his talent; he got his push because he understood Vince's mind probably better than anyone else in the business, and he knew how to cater to his whims. The fans weren't begging for an HHH run on top. The fans didn't chant "We Want HHH" every time he took time off. They did that for Flair.

 

You're not going to find a single headliner with no blood on his hands. Yeah, Flair could have put over Luger cleanly, and in 1988, a short run with the title might have boosted business. But in 1991, we saw what happened when Luger got an extended run with the belt. Ric Flair did NOT break up the Austin/Pillman tag team. Dusty Rhodes did; Flair wasn't even booking at the time. In fact, it was Flair who was responsible for Austin getting a strong singles push in the first half of 1994. Austin was only cast aside that fall, which was after Hogan entered the company and started getting jobs for his friends.

 

Was Flair a saint? No. He didn't always do what was right for business, but that was typically because he was willing to do everything asked of him to a point where beating him no longer meant anything. The only thing Flair was guilty of was not refusing to job more. Just because Flair wasn't a saint, however, doesn't mean he was a sinner.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

I know what you're trying to get at Loss and I agree with you but I don't think you need reminding that everybody at one point or another is a sinner.

 

But I know that's not what you're getting at. Good post.