Has there ever been a 5 star match?

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

It's definately the language barrier. I know personally that I can't digest more than a few Puro matches at a time due to not really understanding the announcers. But it doesn't decrease my enjoyment in anyway whatsoever and you can usually pick up on storylines, etc. due to the fact it works under the same rules as North America.

[Guest Ray]

"Language barrier" is a huge cop-out. You're essentially saying wrestling should be judged by who is announcing it. So then, is it impossible to enjoy US wrestling if it doesn't have commentary? Because you're saying English commentary is required for the wrestling to be good.

 

I personally prefer Japanese announcers to English announcers. First, they speak with far more passion. Second, you don't have to worry about some dumbass telling you over and over how great Hogan and the NWO are during a great Benoit match.

 

 

Lariatooooooooo~~~~! > everything US announcers ever said.

[DangerousDamon 0]

"Language barrier" is a huge cop-out. You're essentially saying wrestling should be judged by who is announcing it. So then, is it impossible to enjoy US wrestling if it doesn't have commentary? Because you're saying English commentary is required for the wrestling to be good.

 

I personally prefer Japanese announcers to English announcers. First, they speak with far more passion. Second, you don't have to worry about some dumbass telling you over and over how great Hogan and the NWO are during a great Benoit match.

 

 

Lariatooooooooo~~~~! > everything US announcers ever said.

Damn Skippy. Whenever i watch a puro match, I usually turn up the volume to listen to the announcers scream EXPLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOODAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH!

[Guest MikeSC]

I've only ever seen Midnight Express/Fantastics from Clash I but it was very good as far as a tag brawl goes.  Damned finish really hurt the match though.  The Anderson/Blanchard vs. Luger/Windham from that show is also solid with mega heat from the crowd.

I'd give some of the Pillman & Zenk v Midnight Express matches 5 stars. Horribly underrated tag gems.

-=Mike

What shows are these on, I need to check them out.

Mostly on TV. The only PPV match they had (a damned good one, too) was at Capital Combat 1990.

-=Mike

[Guest Choken One]

the problem is if I want to know WHY i should give a shit about these two workers, you need the announcers to explain it and when you dont have the announcers to properly explain it to you...you can't get into it because you need to know why they are fighting.

 

Case in Point, If Savage/Flair WM8 was that exact same match and didn't have heenan and Gorillia explaining it...it wouldn't have the same effect.

[Dace59 0]

If you want to know, you have the internet and ALL these internet message boards, sites and archives.

 

Get up and look for the details. If you read all the details, rather than having them fead to you in commentry, you should be able to watch the match with the sound off.

 

Case in point, 6/3/94. I dont have a line by line fan translation of the commentry, but I've done at least enough reading to have some grasp of what's happening and why and why it should matter to me.

[theintensifier 0]

I too like the Japanese announcers.

 

DANGEROUS BACKDROPAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Guest NateRizzle]

In Japan the stories are told in the ring. You don't need announcers to back them up.

 

I mute the TV when I watch US wrestling anyway. I can't stand some of the idiotic chants and the stupid comments the announcers make.

[Art Sandusky 0]

To me, idiotic chants and stupid announcers are wrestling cliches that I need to hear to enjoy it more. It's all part of why it takes a lot to make me not like an angle or a show, because I'm so easily entertained, so long as I can understand the dumb shit. I can't watch a match on mute or in a different language. Call it a cop-out all you want, but I'd think I know more about what I enjoy than others.

[Guest Ray]

Sucks to be you, I guess...

[Guest whitemilesdavis]

"Language barrier" is a huge cop-out. You're essentially saying wrestling should be judged by who is announcing it. So then, is it impossible to enjoy US wrestling if it doesn't have commentary?

 

No one said impossible, but commentary can help my enjoyment of a match greatly. I'd assume this is the same for loads of people, or they wouldn't, you know, pay the guys to be there.

[DMann2003 0]

Hey Coffin, I'm curious as to what you rate Midnight Express vs. the Southern Boys from 90.

I'm not Coffin but This match is the one supposed ****+ North American Match I haven't seen yet and that annoys me.

Come by my apartment sometime and I'll let you watch it, I've got it on tape...somewhere...

[Special K 0]

I've got to say, as well, that while The great puro matches are the best matches I'VE ever seen, puro lets EVERYONE have a good long shot out there, pretty much seems like 10 minutes is minimum. So while we're glomming the great matches and feuds out of the last 20 years of puro, we're often missing a lot of TRULY atrocious matches.

 

I'd rather watch a 2 minute Albert match, as awful as it is, than watch Muta in his lazy period mug for the camera and do lazy matwork for 20 minutes.

 

And it DOES take a significant time investment to appreciate AJPW matches fully (with exceptions like the great Hansen Kobashi match). Some people realisically have time restraints. And AJPW will be extremely rewarding if you have the time to invest, but I think great WWF matches have as much instant gratification because of unlimited access to the weekly tv shows and deeper knowledge of the generally much broader characters.

 

Plus, of course Puro is HIGHLY variable. Toryumon, is the most cracked-out, instant-gratification wrestling I've ever seen, so if you love TLC matches, you've got hours and hours of that kind of stuff available in that form.

 

I think the puro fans are being pretty civil in this discussion. Everyone knows that if your exposure to wrestling is limited, then Bret/Austin 'I Quit' is pretty much the shit. And the fact that there are better matches out there, doesn't change the fact that it's the shit in any way. It just means there are matches out there that are better. It all comes down to one's measure of what the five asterisks really mean. I've generally agreed with, what I think coffin surfer's definition is: **** is an awesome, awesome match, but it gets exponentially harder as you go up the ladder to *****. It works becuase there are tons of awesome matches in all cultures that can rank ****, but for the purpose of ranking best matches of all time, having a special distinction above **** is necessary.

 

 

P.S: Any lucha matches out there that someone would reccomend as MUST SEE? I haven't really been able to get into lucha at all, despite the fact that lucha crowds are awesome, completely losing their minds at points.

[Guest Junkyard Willie]

Different strokes for different folks - that's why there will never seemingly be a universal *****.

 

When I watch Bret/Austin - I think to myself it's perfect. No visible missed spots, perfect psychology. Yet, for someone like myself the workrate and variety just wasn't there.

 

Then you take the Angle v.s. Benoit match. The one Scott Keith gives ****3/4 for some early chinlocks. A lot of people think it's ***** because of the great technical wrestling and perfect psychology. But it was missing something to me because the SPoRtZ NTerTaiNMeNT LOL2004 aspect wasn't there. It was too vanilla, and neither made me suspend disbelief enough to actually root for someone.

 

The only match I've ever seen that appeased all my tastes was Jodie Fleisch v.s. Low Ki at an ROH show 1 1/2 years ago that sent shivers through my whole body.

[Guest whitemilesdavis]

I re-watched Bret/Austin last nite, because my memory was really fuzzy on it. (Haven't seen it in a few years.)

 

1) The crowd was amazing. Anyone who thinks a crowd can't add to a match's rating needs to rewatch this match.

 

2) There was a bit too much brawling for me. Fighting in the crowd, etc. I don't mind the brawling, but it seems strange to me that the "workrate fanatics" would even consider this *****.

 

3) I didn't really care about Bret or Austin at the time, so with no emotional investment, it also took away frome the match some.

 

Still, very, very entertaining match.

[Guest Dynamite Kido]

The only match I've ever seen that appeased all my tastes was Jodie Fleisch v.s. Low Ki at an ROH show 1 1/2 years ago that sent shivers through my whole body.

A match in which I like as well, but it's ***3/4 - **** but nothing higher.

[Black Lushus 0]

I re-watched Bret/Austin last nite, because my memory was really fuzzy on it. (Haven't seen it in a few years.)

 

1) The crowd was amazing. Anyone who thinks a crowd can't add to a match's rating needs to rewatch this match.

 

2) There was a bit too much brawling for me. Fighting in the crowd, etc. I don't mind the brawling, but it seems strange to me that the "workrate fanatics" would even consider this *****.

 

3) I didn't really care about Bret or Austin at the time, so with no emotional investment, it also took away frome the match some.

 

Still, very, very entertaining match.

on your 2nd point, I think they gave it high ratings because of the phsycological aspect of it...they were able to convince us that these guys just flat out hated each other thus wrestling for the most part would be thrown out the window and it would be straight brawling...i think the "workrate so-called know-it-alls" understood this when rating the match...

 

like i've said before, this is one of my all-time favorite fueds that I personally feel like never had closure, which pisses me off, but the WM 13 match is one of my all-time favorites by far...

[Guest whitemilesdavis]

on your 2nd point, I think they gave it high ratings because of the phsycological aspect of it...they were able to convince us that these guys just flat out hated each other thus wrestling for the most part would be thrown out the window and it would be straight brawling...i think the "workrate so-called know-it-alls" understood this when rating the match...

 

And I think they give Bret a break. (Hmph..cough..bias...cough)

 

Seriously, I really like the match, but if you take out the emotional investment for Bret and Austin, it's no where near a perfect match.

 

As I've said before, I rate matches on entertainment value rather than workrate, so in my book 4-5 stars for this match is fine. It just seems hypocritical for the "workrate" guys to give this 5, yet trash some other things.

[BHK 0]

1) The crowd was amazing.  Anyone who thinks a crowd can't add to a match's rating needs to rewatch this match.

I could somewhat understand this sentiment before. However, anyone that still thinks this after viewing Rock/Hogan, is insane.

 

 

I want to be entertained. That's the bottom line. I think we all do. I want great wrestling also, but sometimes, if a match can entertain me greatly, that can overtake poor workrate.

 

The problem, in my view, with being a "smark" is that sometimes you're so busy looking for psychology, pacing, etc. that you forget about the mark part of that moniker, and just concentrate on the first word. Sometimes matches that are entertaining, but where the wrestling isn't that good, can be fun.

 

Prime example recently being Triple H/Eugene. Rating the match on the wrestling portion it's probably about *1/4. However, I was incredibly entertained by the story the match told, and the antics of the wrestlers. I had FUN watching said match. This bumps up the rating considerably.

[Dace59 0]

It all depends how you do your rating.

 

If you rate sololy on the technical side of the match, the story and pyschology, you can watch with the volume off and it wont make a bit of difference to your rating.

 

It just depends what you're looking for. Just like looking for different things in music.

But then you run into problems of missing the wood for the trees as it where.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

Prime example recently being Triple H/Eugene. Rating the match on the wrestling portion it's probably about *1/4. However, I was incredibly entertained by the story the match told, and the antics of the wrestlers. I had FUN watching said match. This bumps up the rating considerably.

 

Oh for crying out loud, of course if a match is good, it's entertaining. You can't have a good match that isn't entertaining.

 

It's like saying Andre/Hogan sucked but it was fun. No, Hogan/Andre doesn't suck. It's not great but it's pretty fucking far from a bad match. For a match that has NO high end offense, almost no bumps, it's rather solid and well paced.

 

This isn't a defense of Triple H/Eugene though, that match made me want to tear my own eyes out.

[Guest Ray]

This isn't a defense of Triple H/Eugene though, that match made me want to tear my own eyes out.

Oh come on now, how can you not like HHH ridiculously overselling Eugene's offense?

[godthedog 0]

It's like saying Andre/Hogan sucked but it was fun. No, Hogan/Andre doesn't suck. It's not great but it's pretty fucking far from a bad match. For a match that has NO high end offense, almost no bumps, it's rather solid and well paced.

i despise that match. it's just. so. boring. the five-minute bearhug, hogan's attempted piledriver to the floor...it's just so...stupid.

[Guest whitemilesdavis]

Other than historical significance, ther is nothing to seperate it from any JIndrak vs. MArk Henry match.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

No, if you want a shitty similar match just check out Lugar vs. Yokozuna from Wrestlemania X. Hogan/Andre is miles ahead of it and they aren't even nearly as good as athletes.

 

1. The Psychology while not brilliant is solid with Hogan dramatically building towards the Body Slam. Plus there's plenty of learned psychology with them avoiding moves that were hit earlier.

 

2. Andre's offense is focused and varied despite not being very high impact, he does mix it up. Hogan does as well.

 

3. The Bearhug is no more boring or longer than most Flair/Figure Four heat segments.

 

4. Hogan's timing for his comebacks is dead on, he does a great job of building towards the actual "fall of Andre", getting closer and closer with each comeback.

 

This match is not a masterpeice but it's not shit either.