godthedog 0 Report post Posted June 23, 2004 He's right about Renegade, if anyone told that guy he could be star, they should be locked up. this is the same man who, coincidentally, also told foley that he would never be a star. no, i'm not comparing foley to renegade. flair just seems to be oblivious to the fact that his own judgment is very fallible, and using it as the basis for explaining why a human being killed himself is inexcusable. You know, I've heard other wrestlers say that Savage was a bad worker. Personally, I think he's one of the best ever. I wonder what's up with that. Dynamite Kid, in his book, said some things about him being hard to work with in the ring. I wonder if maybe Savage was just such a jerk off-camera (i.e. locking Liz in closets) that a lot of wrestlers are biased against him. it depends on one's definition of a good worker. savage loved to plan out matches, sometimes obsessively (his WM3 match with steamboat was meticulously planned out over a period of months, with over 500 steps in it IIRC). there are people who don't care about this (like steamboat), and there are people who think that an essential part of being a good worker is being able to improvise (like flair). i personally think it's a mixed bag, as sometimes that kind of planning can cover for the other guy's weaknesses very well (re: his matches with warrior, and DDP's semi-famous match with goldberg), but if you've got another ring general there who is more comfortable with working on the fly, he's got to swallow his pride and wrestle your kind of match, which is more difficult for him to do. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Trivia247 Report post Posted June 23, 2004 the way it sounds like at least what has been reported recently that all we hear about is Flair disbelief in Foley as a wrestler and disapproval of what he does do to get over. (Though Flair would go if we said things in wrestling terminology.) So I mean for Foley to get those neat to chants by the crowd because he is a goodguy. Which could mean that Flair sees Foley's work however you like to describe it as a sideshow freak. The last Gasp of the old Carny wrestling days. He said he wasn't in demand outside of the WWF but Foley had his cult followings, from Tri-State wrestling into WCW into Japan into ECW and finally WWF. Now this is just an opinion, perhaps its true that Flair does lay out some positives of Foley. Just haven't heard about any from him. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DCMaximo 0 Report post Posted June 23, 2004 Don't know if anyone else noticed the cover, but the book appears to be edited by Mark Madden. THERE'S a man I wouldn't have expected to be involved in a WWE-produced book. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest whitemilesdavis Report post Posted June 23, 2004 no, i'm not comparing foley to renegade. flair just seems to be oblivious to the fact that his own judgment is very fallible, and using it as the basis for explaining why a human being killed himself is inexcusable. Flair thinks his own judgement is infallible? Well, I don't know. I haven't read the book. He was wrong about Foley, but so were many, many others who said he'd never be a main-eventer. The difference, Flair hasn't apologized. And as far as the REnegade stuff that you call inexcusable; I never knew Renegade, Flair, Hogan, or Bischoff, but Flair worked closely with all of them. If he thinks he knows what led to that man's demise, he's entitled to say it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chaosrage 0 Report post Posted June 23, 2004 �There�s a difference between being a great performer and being a guy � like Brutus Beefcake or the Ultimate Warrior � who became famous because he happened to be working for Vince. It�s the same with Foley. When he hasn�t been working for Vince, there has been no demand for him whatsoever. He�s just another guy.� -Flair on Mick Foley He was a main eventer in WCW. What the hell is flair talking about? No demand for him at all when he wasn't working for Vince? Senile old bastard. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Dynamite Kido Report post Posted June 23, 2004 �There�s a difference between being a great performer and being a guy � like Brutus Beefcake or the Ultimate Warrior � who became famous because he happened to be working for Vince. It�s the same with Foley. When he hasn�t been working for Vince, there has been no demand for him whatsoever. He�s just another guy.� -Flair on Mick Foley He was a main eventer in WCW. What the hell is flair talking about? No demand for him at all when he wasn't working for Vince? Senile old bastard. He was NOT a main eventer in WCW. He did have a few main event feuds, but he was never a Main eventer that would be taken seriously...... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest 2pacallyps Report post Posted June 23, 2004 Flair is overrated with his formula matches althought his Steamboat match at Clash is classic. He certainly was wrong about Foley and I hope Flair retires because I don't want to see an old man with saggy tits blowing the flair flip and doing nothing but chops. Just because Tenryu can still wrestle at 50 doesn't mean Flair can. He needs to look in the mirror and understand that his time as a wrestler is over end of story. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chaosrage 0 Report post Posted June 23, 2004 He was NOT a main eventer in WCW. He did have a few main event feuds, but he was never a Main eventer that would be taken seriously...... That's because of WCW's (and Flair's) stupidity, not because there wasn't a demand for him. He was the 2nd biggest face in the company. He would definitely have been taken seriously as a main eventer if they hadn't fucked up that feud with Vader. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest whitemilesdavis Report post Posted June 23, 2004 Flair is overrated with his formula matches althought his Steamboat match at Clash is classic. I've heard this arguement for a while now, and I don't see how anyone could honestly say Flair is overrated. The guy has entertained millions for 3 decades. At some point you have to give in and admit that he is great. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest 2pacallyps Report post Posted June 23, 2004 I never said that he wasn't great but I would put Stan Hansen, young Terry Funk, Steamboat, Eddie and some other's as better North American workers than Flair. Flair deserves to be in the HOF but he's not the greatest wrestler people claim he is. I'm not gonna mention Japanese wrestlers because there're alot that are better workers. He's overrated for being called the best technical wrestler by some people out there. He might be able to carry a broomstick to a *** match but it would be the same *** match every time. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest 2pacallyps Report post Posted June 23, 2004 He is one of the great talker's also but The Rock, Austin, even Foley are better. In terms of the total wrestler he is one of the great's he's just not the greatest. That's my opinion and I can understand why people rate him as the best so no disrespect to people who think that he is. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest BionicRedneck Report post Posted June 23, 2004 At some point you have to give in and admit that he is great. He is great. But he is pimped as 'The greatest of all time'. Which he isn't. Hence: Overrated. I mean, Jesus Christ, some morons still try to claim Flair is one of the best in the world TODAY. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Prophet of Mike Zagurski 0 Report post Posted June 23, 2004 Chris Benoit! Chris Benoit! Chris Benoit! Sorry, had to work that in. Ric Flair was a charasmatic wrestler who generally had good matches. It's hard for me to that work rate today because I did not grow up with the NWA. I can't wait to read Flair's book and I may pick a few others. I love reading wrestling Auto/biographies. Speaking of which, I wonder how much of it Flair wrote? I remember Foley talking about ghost writers. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NoCalMike 0 Report post Posted June 23, 2004 Considering he is crediting Triple H with helping him find himself again, I guess that is one more reason to hate Triple. Had it not been for that incident/match, quite possibly Flair's washed up self might have been retired by now. Thanks a lot HHH. Also, Flair's comments on Foley are off. Foley was HUGE in Japan, and the indy scene in North America. WWE just happened to be the last to get it, regarding Foley's potential, but that has nothing to do with Foley's ability and more with WWE's bookers. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NoCalMike 0 Report post Posted June 23, 2004 I wish Bobby Heenan would do another book or something. I remember a couple of years ago some local radio comedians/djs did an interview with him, and it had to be THE BEST interview I have ever heard from someone in the wrez business, and keep in mind this was coming from a random radio dj. Heenan has the unique ability to give insight and talk about "inside" issues/topics without trying to gloss himself. He is fantastic. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Mandarin 0 Report post Posted June 23, 2004 Had it not been for that incident/match, quite possibly Flair's washed up self might have been retired by now. Thanks a lot HHH. That match did indeed boost Ric's confidence and he got the tribute he deserved afterwards. Good for him. Why is that such a bad thing? Flair's obviously past his prime and can't hold up with the rest of the guys in the ring, but is he really that unwatchable or are you just finding something to complain about? Obviously, he's having the time of his life and the fans are still reacting, so more power to him. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NoCalMike 0 Report post Posted June 23, 2004 Had it not been for that incident/match, quite possibly Flair's washed up self might have been retired by now. Thanks a lot HHH. That match did indeed boost Ric's confidence and he got the tribute he deserved afterwards. Good for him. Why is that such a bad thing? Flair's obviously past his prime and can't hold up with the rest of the guys in the ring, but is he really that unwatchable or are you just finding something to complain about? Obviously, he's having the time of his life and the fans are still reacting, so more power to him. umm, do YOU watch his matches? He hasn't brought anything new or fresh to his matches in over 5 years. He can't even take a back body drop properly. He is just an old flabby guy that can't just let go. It is no different then the boxer Roberto Duran and George Foreman still trying to get in the ring and box. Not to mention he is seriously risking his health and well being. I know the argument is, "well that is his choice" but when you are becoming senile like he is, he may not even know what is best for himself. He needs to retire. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Mandarin 0 Report post Posted June 23, 2004 I'm just assuming that Ric Flair and Vince McMahon know best for when it's time for Flair to leave. Flair still has some credibility and he's still getting a reaction (even though it has nothing to do with his current ringwork, rather his affilliation and his legend status), so once Ric Flair decides to call it a career, then I'll accept that. I just don't think he should retire now as long as it's keeping his morale up and not being a bother to anybody backstage. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Coffey Report post Posted June 23, 2004 I consider Ric Flair to be the best North American wrestler of all-time. I also understand that some people might not agree with that, but many people do. Some of the people whom would agree with me, might not have that much access to foreign wrestling. That being said, to them Ric Flair would be the greatest wrestler of all-time. I don't really see why it's that big of a deal. It seem plausible to me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1234-5678 0 Report post Posted June 23, 2004 �There�s a difference between being a great performer and being a guy � like Brutus Beefcake or the Ultimate Warrior � who became famous because he happened to be working for Vince. It�s the same with Foley. When he hasn�t been working for Vince, there has been no demand for him whatsoever. He�s just another guy.� -Flair on Mick Foley He was a main eventer in WCW. What the hell is flair talking about? No demand for him at all when he wasn't working for Vince? Senile old bastard. He was NOT a main eventer in WCW. He did have a few main event feuds, but he was never a Main eventer that would be taken seriously...... Amnesia angle anyone? Besides, that Texas Death Match with Vader looked like it was taken pretty seriously to me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest MikeSC Report post Posted June 23, 2004 Had it not been for that incident/match, quite possibly Flair's washed up self might have been retired by now. Thanks a lot HHH. That match did indeed boost Ric's confidence and he got the tribute he deserved afterwards. Good for him. Why is that such a bad thing? Flair's obviously past his prime and can't hold up with the rest of the guys in the ring, but is he really that unwatchable or are you just finding something to complain about? Obviously, he's having the time of his life and the fans are still reacting, so more power to him. umm, do YOU watch his matches? He hasn't brought anything new or fresh to his matches in over 5 years. He can't even take a back body drop properly. He is just an old flabby guy that can't just let go. It is no different then the boxer Roberto Duran and George Foreman still trying to get in the ring and box. Not to mention he is seriously risking his health and well being. I know the argument is, "well that is his choice" but when you are becoming senile like he is, he may not even know what is best for himself. He needs to retire. So, because you don't agree with him, he's senile? Heck, Flair, in many ways, is right about Foley. What did his style do to him? Retired him young and he'll be in pain for the rest of his life. Is THAT a style you want to have young workers emulate? -=Mike Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1234-5678 0 Report post Posted June 23, 2004 Had it not been for that incident/match, quite possibly Flair's washed up self might have been retired by now. Thanks a lot HHH. That match did indeed boost Ric's confidence and he got the tribute he deserved afterwards. Good for him. Why is that such a bad thing? Flair's obviously past his prime and can't hold up with the rest of the guys in the ring, but is he really that unwatchable or are you just finding something to complain about? Obviously, he's having the time of his life and the fans are still reacting, so more power to him. umm, do YOU watch his matches? He hasn't brought anything new or fresh to his matches in over 5 years. He can't even take a back body drop properly. He is just an old flabby guy that can't just let go. It is no different then the boxer Roberto Duran and George Foreman still trying to get in the ring and box. Not to mention he is seriously risking his health and well being. I know the argument is, "well that is his choice" but when you are becoming senile like he is, he may not even know what is best for himself. He needs to retire. So, because you don't agree with him, he's senile? Heck, Flair, in many ways, is right about Foley. What did his style do to him? Retired him young and he'll be in pain for the rest of his life. Is THAT a style you want to have young workers emulate? -=Mike Flair's a bitter dumbass. And Foley is clearly not in pain, as he was moving around the ring like he was 25 in the match against Orton. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest MikeSC Report post Posted June 23, 2004 Flair's a bitter dumbass. And Foley is clearly not in pain, as he was moving around the ring like he was 25 in the match against Orton. Football players in the 70's didn't appear to be in pain all of the time. They were. Brett Favre didn't play as if he was in constant pain in the 1990's. He's said he was. You can feel remarkably good while working --- it's when you cool off that the problems tend to arise. -=Mike Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LaParkaYourCar 0 Report post Posted June 23, 2004 Umm...if there wasn't a demand for Foley outside of his work in the WWF then why did the WWF pick him up in the first place? It's real easy for Flair to say there was no demand for him in WCW when Flair was holding him back. Seems to me that Flair can't stand that he was wrong about Foley...couple that with the fact that Foley didn't have very nice things to say about Flair in his first book, and you have on bitter Flair. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest MikeSC Report post Posted June 23, 2004 Umm...if there wasn't a demand for Foley outside of his work in the WWF then why did the WWF pick him up in the first place? It's real easy for Flair to say there was no demand for him in WCW when Flair was holding him back. Seems to me that Flair can't stand that he was wrong about Foley...couple that with the fact that Foley didn't have very nice things to say about Flair in his first book, and you have on bitter Flair. Maybe you had a damned bitter Foley. -=Mike Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LaParkaYourCar 0 Report post Posted June 23, 2004 Seems to me the way Foley wrote about Flair in his book it was more presenting his side of the story. What would Foley have to be bitter about? At that point he was on top of the world and it was more of a "that was then, this is now" kind of thing in his book. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Use Your Illusion 0 Report post Posted June 23, 2004 Ric Flair could sell ice to eskimos. I'm so fucking buying this book. UYI Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Mandarin 0 Report post Posted June 23, 2004 Ric Flair could sell ice to eskimos. I'm so fucking buying this book. UYI I caved it in and bought it two hours ago. I just passed page 100. It's been really entertaining so far, the road stories he shares are hilarious. I'm guessing it gets even better once he gets into WCW/WWF. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LaParkaYourCar 0 Report post Posted June 23, 2004 Oh I want to read it too, but I guess you'll always have those guys in wrestling that have their antagonists that they will always talk bad about and when it boils down it has nothing to do with actual ring skill and more about personal feelings. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Mulatto Heat Report post Posted June 23, 2004 That book cover looks very 1983. I guess it's appropriate for 'the wrestler of the 80s'. (Note the quotes before you jump on me) http://www.otherarena.com/cgi/post.cgi?17619&1&4&wwe tOA is certainly having a field day with this. They've revealed that Flair's chronology is a tad off, among other things. Count me in with those who say that Flair is done. His offense is practically non-existant. There's only so many backdrops (all of which look unfluid) and Flair flops one can watch in a match. I do get amused that he so emulates someone who won't sell his finisher though. Foley is clearly not in pain, as he was moving around the ring like he was 25 in the match against Orton. I certainly hope you aren't as naive as you come off with that comment. I have a very hard time believing that all the pains that Foley has accumulated over the years have just disappeared. It doesn't work that way. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
