The OAO Raw thread for 07.12.04

[Dark Age 0]

Rodz,

Then why (when the US Title was brought back) did they make a big deal about all the former champions, and how Benoit or Guerrero would join that list (despite the fact that they held the US Title themselves)? From the way it was put over, WWE want us to look at this US Title if it is 'The' US Title. It's the same belt, it has the same lineage, the same history. Benoit's World Title is often referred to as the same belt that WCW had. Jericho has held the belt that Benoit is wearing, according to Jericho, JR and everyone else in WWE. They consider it to have the history of the WCW belt.

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

They tried but ultimately failed when they acted like Benoit and Guerrero were trying to win it for the first time.

[King Cucaracha 0]

"Chris Benoit is still the World Heavyweight Champion...but we're not going to give him an interview for obvious reasons, and we haven't announced a match for him either...but he'll be on the show, so all you smarks better set your VCRs!"

 

Better?

[razazteca 0]

Benoit vs Eugene for the Main Event?

[Guest Evolution]

I was thinking watching the PPV last night (not sure if this was brought up in the Vengeance thread), but would it be feasible for Orton to be very upset with Evolution, and Triple H in particular? Triple H used Eugene to get the World Title from Benoit, while the rest of Evolution had to deal with Eugene and keep the ruse going. Meanwhile, Randy Orton LOST his Intercontinental Title that he had held for quite a spell. Where was Eugene to help Orton keep his Intercontinental Title? Just because Triple H is his favorite wrestler, doesn't exempt Eugene from his duties as an honorary member of Evolution, does it?

 

So it's not the best feud starter in the world, but still. Could it work?

[Guest Real F'n Show]

I'm WAY more interested in the Tajiri/Rhyno pairing then the Triple H/Eugene sotryline for some reason.

[BHK 0]

Eugene is going to play into the SS Main Event somehow(which I'm assuming at this point is going to be Benoit vs. HHH) either as a cornerman, or a special ref, or something like that.

[Guest M. Harry Smilac]

Edge regained Intercontinental glory on Sunday night, pinning Randy Orton to capture the title. Where does the new Intercontinental Champion go from here? Will there be a rematch?

I see a rematch coming and Orton getting the title back tonight.Then a possible gimmick(ladder I wish) match at Summerslam.

 

Orton does alot better in gimmick matches like the one with Foley were he doesn't have to use the 20 minute restholds so if their smart and do a ladder match it should be alot better then the Vengeance match especially with Edge's past ladder/tlc experience.

 

 

My only hope is that they leave these two alone to feud and HHH doesn't interject himself in some way possibly forcing Eugene to help Randy get the title back to partially redeem himself for last night.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

I'm probably the only one who thinks this but I could see Batista being the one to split away/be kicked out of Evolution. He always seems like the odd guy out, probably because Flair, Orton and HHH all play it cool whereas Dave is nutz.

[NYU 0]

I see a rematch coming and Orton getting the title back tonight.Then a possible gimmick(ladder I wish) match at Summerslam.

No way will they put Edge in a ladder match this soon. I'd go as far to say as WWE will never book Edge in a ladder match again.

 

I'm probably the only one who thinks this but I could see Batista being the one to split away/be kicked out of Evolution. He always seems like the odd guy out, probably because Flair, Orton and HHH all play it cool whereas Dave is nutz.

 

They're definitely planting the seeds for Orton to be the one to kick Hunter out of Evolution. Last night, it was Randy that kept questioning Hunter's motives, then rolling his eyes whenever HHH kept mentioning that Eugene was part of a bigger deal. Later on, Orton actually walked away from Hunter with a disgusted look on his face when Eugene walked in. Batista looks to actually be the calmest member of Evolution - the one that goes along with everything without arguing. So I can't really see a reason for he being kicked out of Evolution in the near future. However, either Hunter or Randy are open at this point, simply because some solid roots of dissention were planned last night, and it might be time for either one to take control. I would bet that soon, it will be Randy, setting up the future HHH/Orton angle.

[AlaskanHero 0]

Rodz,

Then why (when the US Title was brought back) did they make a big deal about all the former champions, and how Benoit or Guerrero would join that list (despite the fact that they held the US Title themselves)? From the way it was put over, WWE want us to look at this US Title if it is 'The' US Title. It's the same belt, it has the same lineage, the same history. Benoit's World Title is often referred to as the same belt that WCW had. Jericho has held the belt that Benoit is wearing, according to Jericho, JR and everyone else in WWE. They consider it to have the history of the WCW belt.

I did say it was just speculation. I was searching some sites with title histories and they didn't help all that much.

[Dark Age 0]

NY, I though Orton was walking away because he didn't want to be blamed for Eugene going missing?

[Art Sandusky 0]

If Austin lost a title match back during the Attitude era, it was about how he'd lost/what he'd do next and not about who he lost to. Same with Rock. Get over it.

 

And they could say HHH is a 37-time World Champion, Austin was a 83-time Champ, and Rock won once for all I care. Then say that the title they're holding is the same as the one that Orville "Scruffy Muttonchops" McGee held back in 1863. None of that shit matters.

[SuperJerk 0]

The Raw World Title has no connection to the WCW title.

Says you.

[Mystery Eskimo 0]

Says WWE, and its their title. Bischoff created the title especially for HHH. When was WCW mentioned?

[Dark Age 0]

It is often said that Jericho held the belt that Benoit has. They said Booker had held the belt when Trips was champ. They consider the World Heavyweight Title as the WCW Title.

[SuperJerk 0]

Says WWE, and its their title. Bischoff created the title especially for HHH. When was WCW mentioned?

Here we go again.

 

On the night Triple H was awarded the title, Bischoff SPECIFICALLY SAID it was the same belt Triple H had won at Wrestlemania earlier that year by referring to Triple H as being the last one to have held the belt. The belt that Triple H won at WMX8 was the same belt as the WCW championship. Ric Flair spoke that night about having held that belt before also. On Confidential that weekend they did a piece on former World Heavyweight Champions who'd held that resurrected belt before, and specifically mentioned guys like DDP, Sting, and Goldberg (this piece is on the "Best of Confidential" DVD).

 

Is there some kind of rule that says we have to have this debate once a month?

[iggymcfly 0]

Here's the way I see the title history. The WCW Title was brought in by Booker T, and defended in the WWF where Rock held it leaving Survivor Series. After Survivor Series, Vince changed the name of the title to the World Heavyweight Championship. Rock lost this belt to Jericho, who lost it to HHH. At this point, since HHH also held the WWE Title, Flair decided to suspend the World Title, and give Hunter a new Undisputed Championship belt which would have the WWE lineage. This is the belt currently held by JBL.

 

Meanwhile, when Brock left for Smackdown with the WWE Title and would not defend his title against HHH, Raw refused to recognize him as champion. At this point, Bischoff reactivated the old World Heavyweight Title, (previously the WCW Title). Since HHH was the last man to hold the title as well as Brock's mandatory defense, and Flair was the man who had physical possession of it after taking it from HHH, the two fought in the first match for the title after it was reactivated.

 

While WWE gets confused from time to time as to which title lineage is which, the belt Benoit is holding is the same one that Jericho has held twice, and the same one that Booker T has held five times.

 

Also, HHH is really only a seven-time champion, as his reign from WM X-8 to Backlash is basically the same as his reign in the fall where he lost to HBK. Unless of course, you want to count beating Jericho at WM as winning two titles, in which case his eight title wins would be:

 

1. Defeats Foley the night after Raw. Holds title until losing to Vince McMahon on Smackdown

 

2. Wins vacated title in six-pack challenge. Holds title until losing to Big Show at Survivor Series.

 

3. Wins title from Big Show on Raw. Holds title until losing to the Rock at Backlash.

 

4. Defeats Rock in Iron Man match. Holds title until Vince loses it in a six-man tag.

 

5. Defeats Jericho for WWE Title at WM. Holds title until losing to Hogan at Backlash.

 

6. Defeats Jericho for World Title at WM. 8 days after title win, belt is suspended for four months; HHH holds it until losing to HBK in Elimination Chamber.

 

7. Defeats HBK for World Title at Armageddon. Holds title until losing to Goldberg at Unforgiven.

 

8. Wins triple threat to regain title at Armageddon. Holds title until losing to Benoit at WM.

[Dark Age 0]

No. Rock, Taker, Hogan and Brock all held the WCW title AS WELL AS the WWE Title, which made up the undisputed title. When Brock stayed on SD, Bischoff took back HIS brand's half of the championship, meaning Brock vacated it/was stripped of it and it was given to Triple H.

[CanadianChick 0]

If Batista or Orton splits from Evolution (I'd say Orton's more likely) in the next little while, maybe they should partly play it up that Edge got in the ear of Orton. It should be subtle, and in 6 monthes or so, when Evolution's done, Edge can mention it. Afterall, he said he'd pick off Evolution one-by-one. It doesn't have to be taking them out physically though.

 

I really hope Eugene isn't staying in the main events for a lot longer, because he's annoying me now.

[Dark Age 0]

But why would Orton listen to Edge?

[NYU 0]

NY, I though Orton was walking away because he didn't want to be blamed for Eugene going missing?

Nope. He actually walked away from Triple H in the second backstage promo.

 

After Benoit talked to Eugene, and Eugene walked sadly into the room and slumped down on the couch, Flair told Hunter: "Listen, man, just do something about him." Orton stared at HHH for a second, rolled his eyes, then just walked away shaking his head. Hunter looked like he wanted to plead with Randy for a second, but then turned his attention back towards Eugene.

 

I still say Hunter's isolating himself from the rest of the Evolution and, as a result, will soon be kicked out. And it will probably be Randy Orton that does the booting.

[AlaskanHero 0]

Orton could say something like no one came to help him against Edge, yet the whole group went out to save HHH. Unless someone did come out for Orton.

[Dark Age 0]

I still think there is no need to split up Evo any time soon.

[CanadianChick 0]

But why would Orton listen to Edge?

It wouldn't really be listening to Edge. Edge could just make a snide comment pointing out that Evolution wasn't there when he needed them. Randy, character wise, would be thinking that already, right?

[Guest Staravenger]

Orton isn't ready for a feud with HHH. By next Summerslam, I can easily see him as a part-time Main Eventer as long as he stays healthy and continues to improve, but right now, HHH vs. Orton will be the equivilant of Hogan vs. Kidman and look where Kidman is now.

[Art Sandusky 0]

Is there some kind of rule that says we have to have this debate once a month?

 

I demand it!

[Dark Age 0]

Gottcha. That could actually add a spark to Edge's character if they play it right. But, it seems kinda like the character SOH was supposed to play last year, only on the other side of the fence. It would work though.

 

To CC

Edited July 12, 2004 by Dark Age

[Guest bigm350]

Here's the way I see the title history. The WCW Title was brought in by Booker T, and defended in the WWF where Rock held it leaving Survivor Series. After Survivor Series, Vince changed the name of the title to the World Heavyweight Championship. Rock lost this belt to Jericho, who lost it to HHH. At this point, since HHH also held the WWE Title, Flair decided to suspend the World Title, and give Hunter a new Undisputed Championship belt which would have the WWE lineage. This is the belt currently held by JBL.

 

Meanwhile, when Brock left for Smackdown with the WWE Title and would not defend his title against HHH, Raw refused to recognize him as champion. At this point, Bischoff reactivated the old World Heavyweight Title, (previously the WCW Title). Since HHH was the last man to hold the title as well as Brock's mandatory defense, and Flair was the man who had physical possession of it after taking it from HHH, the two fought in the first match for the title after it was reactivated.

 

While WWE gets confused from time to time as to which title lineage is which, the belt Benoit is holding is the same one that Jericho has held twice, and the same one that Booker T has held five times.

 

Also, HHH is really only a seven-time champion, as his reign from WM X-8 to Backlash is basically the same as his reign in the fall where he lost to HBK. Unless of course, you want to count beating Jericho at WM as winning two titles, in which case his eight title wins would be:

 

1. Defeats Foley the night after Raw. Holds title until losing to Vince McMahon on Smackdown

 

2. Wins vacated title in six-pack challenge. Holds title until losing to Big Show at Survivor Series.

 

3. Wins title from Big Show on Raw. Holds title until losing to the Rock at Backlash.

 

4. Defeats Rock in Iron Man match. Holds title until Vince loses it in a six-man tag.

 

5. Defeats Jericho for WWE Title at WM. Holds title until losing to Hogan at Backlash.

 

6. Defeats Jericho for World Title at WM. 8 days after title win, belt is suspended for four months; HHH holds it until losing to HBK in Elimination Chamber.

 

7. Defeats HBK for World Title at Armageddon. Holds title until losing to Goldberg at Unforgiven.

 

8. Wins triple threat to regain title at Armageddon. Holds title until losing to Benoit at WM.

If you really want to get technical then you could say that the World title is not the same as the old school Big Gold as it is a WWEized replica. I know what you mean about the lineage being connected though.

[Dark Age 0]

But then that would be like saying the title Bradshaw has isn't the same as the title Austin had because it isn't the same belt design.