SmackDown from JHawk's Beak

[JHawk 0]

SmackDown from JHawk's Beak (8/5/2004)

[Guest Ray]

As much as I enjoyed this personally because of how much great wrestling there was (and I love being able to emphasize that word), this would have been better served with not only a crowd that cared, but with Angle doing something...ANYTHING...to work the ankle before the ankle lock. That's the one piece of psychology that Angle is either unwilling or unable to pick up, and that's the one thing keeping him from having a truly amazing match on his resume.

He doesn't need to "work the ankle" first. Submission holds can get a tap out without "work the ankle."

 

If you're taking points off his matches for THAT, then you just suck. Sorry.

 

I don't know what I have to do to kill this type of thinking...

[BHK 0]

As much as I enjoyed this personally because of how much great wrestling there was (and I love being able to emphasize that word), this would have been better served with not only a crowd that cared, but with Angle doing something...ANYTHING...to work the ankle before the ankle lock. That's the one piece of psychology that Angle is either unwilling or unable to pick up, and that's the one thing keeping him from having a truly amazing match on his resume.

He doesn't need to "work the ankle" first. Submission holds can get a tap out without "work the ankle."

 

If you're taking points off his matches for THAT, then you just suck. Sorry.

 

I don't know what I have to do to kill this type of thinking...

I've seen you express this point of view on psycohlogy numerous times now, although you've never explained why, I don't think.

 

I see the logic that if, say, Ric Flair is wrestling someone, he would due various moves thorughout the match that concentrated on the leg. Why? Because Flair wants to weaken the leg, so that when he applies the figure 4, his opponent is more likely to submit/tap out, due to the previous damage to the body part.

 

 

Do you not agree with that logic? Or just think that it's not REQUIRED to work a body part? or something else I'm not catching entirely.

[Guest Anglesault]

Too kind on the tag title match.

[AndrewTS 0]

It depends on how the hold has been booked. The anklelock was booked like death for Shamrock and didn't need built up throughout the match. However, I'd argue that as pussified as the anklelock has been booked recently, I'd say it would be logical to at least weaken the rest of the leg to reduce/prevent chance of escape.

 

Although the hold isn't the huge joke that the Walls of Jericho is.

[Guest Kageho]

Um... What Walls of Jericho? You mean that Boston Crab that Jericho uses now that is given the name, Walls of Jericho, even though it isn't even close to being the actual thing?

 

If so, then yes.

[Mystery Eskimo 0]

Full strength submission finishers don't automatically need the body part working over. If you watch shoot fighting, they'll throw on a hold and get a tap out from nowhere.

 

Of course, working to set up a submission finisher is great, but it doesnt mean its bad psychology if you don't.

[Guest Ray]

I've seen you express this point of view on psycohlogy numerous times now, although you've never explained why, I don't think.

 

I see the logic that if, say, Ric Flair is wrestling someone, he would due various moves thorughout the match that concentrated on the leg. Why? Because Flair wants to weaken the leg, so that when he applies the figure 4, his opponent is more likely to submit/tap out, due to the previous damage to the body part.

 

Do you not agree with that logic? Or just think that it's not REQUIRED to work a body part? or something else I'm not catching entirely.

Exactly.

 

Good when done, but not required to be done to be good.

 

Far too many people have been conditioned to think submission holds can't possibly work unless the body part is "worked over" first. It's just not necessary, and frankly, can be boring and predictable.

[clean rob 0]

What sort of offence is there that focuses on the ankles anyway?

[Guest SpiderFan]

Sweet Shin Music.

[SamoaRowe 0]

I disagree about that line about the crowd not caring about the Haas/Angle match. The crowd LOOKED into it from my point of view, regardless of whether or not the noises they were making were canned or not.

 

Besides, I would've given Haas/Angle at least ***. It was a good tv match.

[Guest 2pacallyps]

To set up a submission a bodypart doesn't have to be worked all the time if the submission hold has been established as certain tap out move with out any previous work done to the targeting body part. The problem with Kurt's ankle lock is that most people do reverse it or don't tap out on the first try. That's why he should do at least minimum damage to the leg especially against wrestlers that escaped the hold before. I can understand him not working on Haas's leg because he is a midcarder and the submission was quick. Would I have liked for Angle to work on the leg? Yes, but it didn't really take away from the match. The match was just not that good because of other flaws.

[CanadianChick 0]

Sweet Shin Music.

I'm pretty sure that doesn't work the ankle....

 

 

I think it is better to work the body part because for the fans and the sake of the story of the match. It gives a forshadowment. "Oh yeah, Angle must be doing that to weaken the ankle for his submission!". If it's necessary realistic to have to 'work' a body part for a submission to work in a shoot isn't relevant. A shoot fight doesn't thrive on telling a story; a pro wrestling match does.

[Guest Ray]

I think it is better to work the body part because for the fans and the sake of the story of the match. It gives a forshadowment. "Oh yeah, Angle must be doing that to weaken the ankle for his submission!". If it's necessary realistic to have to 'work' a body part for a submission to work in a shoot isn't relevant. A shoot fight doesn't thrive on telling a story; a pro wrestling match does.

On the other hand though, not doing it for every submission means submissions could happen at any time, making the match more exciting and unpredictable.

[Scroby 0]

Its more of a 50/50 thing really. Half is, if you work on that body part, and then put it in your "submission hold" at the end of the match, either one of two things could happen,

 

1. Wreslter taps out from so much pain it's been put through.

 

2. The Wrestler struggles through the pain and gets out by reversing or getting to the ropes to make it more emotional.

 

However is the body part isn't being worked on and say Angle puts the lock on in the middle of the match, and the guy reverses, little emotion is seen through this and the match just continues to the outcome happens. Should someone tap out from it if the ankle is being worked on? Yeah but the hold should be applied very solid and on for a little bit before the wrestler taps. If the wrestler just taps after a few seconds of the hold first being applied when that part of the body hasn't been worked on, then that's basically jobberville.

[Spaceman Spiff 0]

What sort of offence is there that focuses on the ankles anyway?

1) stomps and/or knee drops and/or elbow drops to the ankle

2) drag guy to apron, slam foot/ankle onto apron

3) drag guy outside ring, slam foot/ankle onto floor

4) drag guy outside ring, slam foot/ankle onto ring steps

5) drag guy outside ring, slam foot/ankle ring post

6) drag guy to ropes, place leg on bottom rope, jump up & land on the leg (usually a knee-related move, but can be sold as working the ankle)

7) the "lower leg atomic drop" (again, usually used to work on the knee, but can be sold as working the ankle, too)

8) chair shot to ankle

9) drag guy to the ropes, place leg on the bottom rope, go outside the ring & pull down on the foot

[clean rob 0]

What sort of offence is there that focuses on the ankles anyway?

1) stomps and/or knee drops and/or elbow drops to the ankle

2) drag guy to apron, slam foot/ankle onto apron

3) drag guy outside ring, slam foot/ankle onto floor

4) drag guy outside ring, slam foot/ankle onto ring steps

5) drag guy outside ring, slam foot/ankle ring post

6) drag guy to ropes, place leg on bottom rope, jump up & land on the leg (usually a knee-related move, but can be sold as working the ankle)

7) the "lower leg atomic drop" (again, usually used to work on the knee, but can be sold as working the ankle, too)

8) chair shot to ankle

9) drag guy to the ropes, place leg on the bottom rope, go outside the ring & pull down on the foot

1) Yeah, that would do.

2) - 5) Are all basically the same thing.

6) & 7) Are a bit dodgy for ankle-based offence IMO.

8) Isn't really general offence as it'll get you DQ'd in most matches.

9) Would be fine.

 

So, I'll agree there's a bit more possible offence focusing on the ankle than I could think of myself, it's just a bit limited for my tastes. I'd rather see Kurt attack the leg(s) in order to make it difficult for the opponent to roll through, as this would give him a lot more possible offence to play with, and would be easier to fit into a match that isn't a brawl (of all the stuff you mentioned, only one thing is really a wrestling move). Equally, I suppose, he could attack the arms to make it harder to crawl to the ropes. It's just up to the announcers to sell it in a convincing, sensible fashion (Ha!).

[Spaceman Spiff 0]

6) & 7) Are a bit dodgy for ankle-based offence IMO.

Not necessarily. For (6) you just make sure to place the foot on the rope, so the force is absorbed by the ankle (similar to how #9 would work). For (7), you just make sure the ankle comes (or close to it) absorbs the blow, rather than higher up towards the knee. It doesn't even need to be exactly on the ankle, as weakening the general ankle area would be sufficient.

 

8) Isn't really general offence as it'll get you DQ'd in most matches.

Luther Reigns runs distraction on the ref, and Kurt slips in a quick shot from the chair.

 

For some more wrestling-oriented stuff, he could mix in some Dragon Screw Leg Whips, maybe Terry Funk's step-over toe-hold.

[Guest Dazed]

On the other hand though, not doing it for every submission means submissions could happen at any time, making the match more exciting and unpredictable.

 

 

You're right, but this is WWE, where falls don't happen at any time. Other than Benoit at the Rumble '03, I can't think of anyone tapping to a non-finisher.

[clean rob 0]

Not necessarily.  For (6) you just make sure to place the foot on the rope, so the force is absorbed by the ankle (similar to how #9 would work). 

Yeah I guess that would be fine, I wasn't really picturing it like that before.

 

For (7), you just make sure the ankle comes (or close to it) absorbs the blow, rather than higher up towards the knee.  It doesn't even need to be exactly on the ankle, as weakening the general ankle area would be sufficient.

Sounds like getting that to look good would be pretty difficult. The balance would have to be spot on to be able to shift the leg that far over.

Luther Reigns runs distraction on the ref, and Kurt slips in a quick shot from the chair.

I still don't like it. Even getting over the fact that it'd get old pretty fast, why waste a chair on weakening an ankle, when you can just waffle them over the head?

 

For some more wrestling-oriented stuff, he could mix in some Dragon Screw Leg Whips, maybe Terry Funk's step-over toe-hold.

Dragon Screws jolt the hip, stepover toe holds twist the knee (unless you really tweak the ankle round, but then it'd pretty much be a modified ankle lock).

 

Aaaanyway, my point is why restrict your possible offence to the ankle when you have a whole leg to play with. All it needs is a spot of announcer selling and it becomes second nature to the audience to think that any legwork Kurt does is probably to reduce the chances of the ankle lock getting reversed.

[BHK 0]

[

Luther Reigns runs distraction on the ref, and Kurt slips in a quick shot from the chair.

I still don't like it. Even getting over the fact that it'd get old pretty fast, why waste a chair on weakening an ankle, when you can just waffle them over the head?

Becaue he forgot one.

 

10) The Pillmanizer.

 

 

So much cooler than the standard chair shot.

[Spaceman Spiff 0]

Aaaanyway, my point is why restrict your possible offence to the ankle when you have a whole leg to play with.

I threw in the Dragon Screw and Toe Hold to go along with that idea.