When did Vince McMahon lose touch with reality?

[JN News 0]

A question just came over me a few minutes ago. When did Vince lose touch with the fans. Maybe it was after WCW died. Maybe it was in 2000. I really don't know when he lost his touch with reality. I really don't he has ever come up with something original in 15 years. I have been really annoyed with Vince's senility since 2002. But, it really got worse for me when he fucked up the Draft Lottery along with Smackdown.

 

 

 

 

 

Is Vince ever gonna pull his head out of his ass, or what?

[JoeDirt 0]

I haven't said "oh wow" to a WWE angle since the night ECW returned on RAW in 2001. And we know how well the invasion angle did after that.

 

I'd have to say after WCW disappeared, the WWF/E REALLY went downhill from there. I am REALLY bored with the product right now. The wrestling is good at times, but the storylines/writing/feuds/angles are so blah.

[Guest Loss]

I don't know that Vince has ever really had a full grasp on reality anyway, but he lost his ability to objectively look at his company's problems (I'm being diplomatic and pretending he once had this) when his daughter joined the writing team, his entire family became on-screen characters, and his daughter married the top heel.

[SamoaRowe 0]

I'd say Vince definitly lost his mind during the final broadcast of Nitro. After that, WWE peaked with Wrestlemania X7 and it's been nothing but downhill ever since.

[ISportsFan 0]

I don't think he's really ever truly been in touch with reality. He was in touch with kids in the 80s, but kids aren't really in touch with reality either.

 

Even during the "boom" phase of 1999, he had complete crap like the Undertaker sacrificing Mideon, kidnapping Stephanie, and so on.

 

In 2000, when everything was going right, he still had no idea that Patterson and Brisco in evening gowns was not humorous in any way, and in fact was disgusting. He had Mae Young become pregnant and give birth to a hand.

 

Whether he wrote the stories or not is irrelevant. He approves everything, thus he's to blame for this stuff. And while he had some great years of wrestling and some good storylines in the top of the card around 2000 and 2001, the fact is that these things prove that he was never really on the same page as reality, even during the good times. It's just when everything goes to crap when his "touch with reality" is questioned.

 

Jason

[SamoaRowe 0]

It's funny, I don't really hate the storyline where Mae Young gave birth to a hand, but if it happened now I'd be irate.

 

I guess it's like what RD Reynolds was saying. When wrestling is hot, the booker can do no wrong, but when it's not the booker can do no right.

[Guest Loss]

That said, as much as Vince drives me crazy sometimes, he's still the greatest wrestling promoter in American history and the company would completely fall apart without him.

[Guest Loss]

Also, booking has never really been Vince's or WWE's biggest strength. Marketing wrestlers, their merchandise and their catchphrases is his specialty, however, and he knows how to create a TV show that *looks* larger than life in terms of production values. Those have been the two biggest keys to his success. Outside of that, sometimes he has moments of clarity, but he's too influenced by those whispering in his ear.

[Guest jfscjrs]

I think the Stephanie/Vince feud and the many A-Train/Stephanie McMahon main-events on SmackDown! last year was when he was completly out of it. I mean that shit was beyond terrible.

 

As for now, well, rather hes in touch with reality or not. I'am actually enjoying the product now alot more than 2002/03.

[SamoaRowe 0]

Ugh, the Stephanie/Vince feud going into No Mercy 03 was one of my all-time most despised angles ever. The rest of that show was pretty solid, but that match made me sick.

[JN News 0]

The reason I'm real furious with Vince right now is because of his favoritism towards RAW over Smackdown. I mean, he officially killed SD! when he traded his son in law back over to RAW, and put that no-talent Hoss, Bradshaw in the main event scene. JBL still sucks, IMO, no matter how much he has "improved" in some people's eyes, here. Also, when HHH was drafted over to SD!, I was truely pumped about watching RAW, again. But, Vince had to ruin my excitement.

[algrim 0]

Vince definitely lost it during the Alliance angle. It has been downhill ever since.

I believe he is starting to come around a little bit, since events this year have been better than last year's (IMO).

[Guest Loss]

Vince definitely lost it during the Alliance angle. It has been downhill ever since.

I believe he is starting to come around a little bit, since events this year have been better than last year's (IMO).

Did you not think the product was going South before that? They squandered most of the new arrivals out of the gate from 1999 forward, although they continued to draw for another two years.

[JN News 0]

Yeah, I guess it's gotten a little better, but not a whole lot better. The bottom line is that Vince is still making the same mistake that WCW made with his favoritism towards RAW. Smackdown has been total shit for most of this year.

[Guest Loss]

I think a bigger problem than that is making RAW and Smackdown more important than anything else. The weekend shows are a total afterthought, despite being perfectly viable chances to produce some good TV, and house shows are virtually meaningless. They need to get away from making RAW and Smackdown the only "must-see" shows and work on beefing up the house show cards and the weekend programming too.

[SamoaRowe 0]

On a creative level, Smackdown is in the shits right now. There is no consistent character development, none of the mid-carders are receiving consistent pushes, in fact nothing is consistent at all! Smackdown is just one big mess!

 

Raw had some good consistency going, but now with Orton as the champ and Benoit floating around, the consistency has been disturbed and Raw could go in either direction. It all depends on whether or not Orton can become a successful face champion and if his feud with Triple H turns out to be good or not.

[Guest jfscjrs]

Ugh, the Stephanie/Vince feud going into No Mercy 03 was one of my all-time most despised angles ever. The rest of that show was pretty solid, but that match made me sick.

You know, besides the rest of the card looking decent. There was no way in HELL I was ever going to buy this PPV because of my hatred towards the McMahon/McMahon feud at that time. When heyman replaced Steph as GM and VInce started hus feud with Undertaker. I started enjoying SmackDown! again. it was a big RELIEF for me.

 

No matter how much Vince favors Raw, I'll make my own choise and right now, SmackDown! is smoking Raw in every way with better wrestling,better storylines and much more better shows recently than Raw. JBL as Champ doesn't bother me one bit and even if he did, that still wouldn't be enough to make me stop watching SD!.

[JN News 0]

Remember when WCW favored Nitro over Thunder? They put all the B-players on Thunder, and all the A-players on Nitro. Vince's favoritism for RAW over Smackdown constantly reminds me of that WCW error, and we all know what happened to that company. Of course, I'm not really saying that the same Vince will suffer the same fate, but still, it's a simular mistake compared to WCW.

[Guest jfscjrs]

Well, I really don't consider guys like Angle,Eddie,Taker,Booker T,RVD,Cena, or Big Show B-Players, I find some of these much more entertaining than some of the Raw Wrestlers. I gues it depends of taste. I find the SmackDown! roster much more entertaining than the Raw guys myself. Hell, even JBL is entertaining than some of the Raw guys.

[ISportsFan 0]

Remember when WCW favored Nitro over Thunder? They put all the B-players on Thunder, and all the A-players on Nitro. Vince's favoritism for RAW over Smackdown constantly reminds me of that WCW error, and we all know what happened to that company. Of course, I'm not really saying that the same Vince will suffer the same fate, but still, it's a simular mistake compared to WCW.

The big difference between that and Raw/Smackdown is the fact that WCW still treated itself as one huge promotion. It wasn't as if Thunder got it's own world title, tag titles, secondary title, and women/cruiser title. Thunder was just meaningless, like Saturday Night for WCW, or Velocity/Heat for WWE. Also, it wasn't as if Thunder got its own PPVs.

 

Smackdown is portrayed as a big deal, in that it gets its own titles, but then again is portrayed as secondary to Raw. If anything, it's hurting the product more than Thunder did for WCW, because now it's as if half of co-brand PPVs is with "secondary" matches, and whole Smackdown PPVs are with "secondary" guys. With Thunder, it was just another TV show. With Smackdown, it's a major revenue source, and it's being treated as secondary.

 

Jason

[SamoaRowe 0]

Well, I really don't consider guys like Angle,Eddie,Taker,Booker T,RVD,Cena, or Big Show B-Players, I find some of these much more entertaining than some of the Raw Wrestlers. I gues it depends of taste. I find the SmackDown! roster much more entertaining than the Raw guys myself.

Yeah, I agree for the most part. If you saw one Raw PPV this year, you saw them all.

[ISportsFan 0]

Well, I really don't consider guys like Angle,Eddie,Taker,Booker T,RVD,Cena, or Big Show B-Players, I find some of these much more entertaining than some of the Raw Wrestlers. I gues it depends of taste. I find the SmackDown! roster much more entertaining than the Raw guys myself.

They aren't B-players. But, the show they're on is secondary to Raw. And thus, they're fighting for "secondary" prizes, like the WWE title compared to the World title. Even though the WWE title has more lineage, the World title has main evented every co-brand PPV since SummerSlam 2003. Raw is live, and they mention it's live, and Smackdown isn't. Raw house shows are promoted well, Smackdown house shows are promoted on radio by saying "HHH" (or some reports have said).

 

It's just constant. Benoit didn't want the Smackdown title, he wanted the Raw title. And so on.

 

Jason

[JN News 0]

I still think that it would've been good for the company, and the business if they had kept HHH on Smackdown, because SD! is in desperate need of someone with name value, and drawing power. Think about it, Eddie vs. HHH would've been good, IMO.

[Guest The Decadent Slacker]

When did he lose his mind? XFL what?

[Guest jfscjrs]

The big difference between that and Raw/Smackdown is the fact that WCW still treated itself as one huge promotion. It wasn't as if Thunder got it's own world title, tag titles, secondary title, and women/cruiser title. Thunder was just meaningless, like Saturday Night for WCW, or Velocity/Heat for WWE. Also, it wasn't as if Thunder got its own PPVs.

 

Smackdown is portrayed as a big deal, in that it gets its own titles, but then again is portrayed as secondary to Raw. If anything, it's hurting the product more than Thunder did for WCW, because now it's as if half of co-brand PPVs is with "secondary" matches, and whole Smackdown PPVs are with "secondary" guys. With Thunder, it was just another TV show. With Smackdown, it's a major revenue source, and it's being treated as secondary.

 

Jason

I don't see it as Vince McMahon treating Raw better than SD!. He might like Raw more, But I don't think hes treating SD! any less than Raw because of that. I see it more as him trying to make both show completly different from each other. If he treated SD! exactlly like Raw, than Raw and SD! would just seem exactlly the same. I mean, SD! IS Vince's creation and it IS his show.

 

I mean, sence the Brand Extention, All his major feuds he was involved with was on SmackDown!, hell, he was the GM of the show from the start. not to mentioned he has had major stars like Hogan, Piper,Brock Lesnar and currently Undertaker on the show.

 

As for the draft, well what could he have done. Kurt was injured, Big Show was injured, and Lesnar left, its not like Vince had any choises of what happened to them. so he brought big names like Booker,RVD, and the dudley boys from Raw to make SD! more interesting and even created a new main-Eventer and charater in JBL sence they lost lesnar. Hell, with Angle and Big Show back now, it make SD! that much more better. Look at all the guys Raw got from SD! mostly just crappy mid-carders no one cared about. I mean A-Train? Palumbo? tagiri? Nidia?

 

And another thing, besides Eugene and Tomko, I've noticed all the new wrestlers they've brought in or bringing in have all been on SmackDown!. hmmm.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Vince is only as good as the people who surround him; and they are as good as Vince will let them be. Which means if he is open to ideas and doesn't make everyone compliment him on his new clothes, then the company is better for it. If he is in insane-mode where the world is against him and he's wearing tissue boxes for shoes, then the company is fucked.

 

I have to believe that _Linda_ McMahon is the one who is keeping this company upright. As his wife, as well as a well-educated lawyer, I imagine she's the one who helped make the contracts, develop the corporation, and hire the right business people; plus she can talk to Vince on-level, rather than having to kiss his ass and tell him what he wants to hear. Where the creative end suffers, the business-side is still generally 'healthy' with them posting profits and her taking home almost the same about as Vinny Mac. Hell, she should be called "Linda MacBeth" This is speculation, but I can't imagine Vince being able to juggle the business-end when he's focused on the creative-end. But even then, I think they are dropping the ball in terms of their growth (movies?? music? Groan), and no doubt that end will sink within the next few years when they realise that "the cyclical nature of wrestling" just got a lot longer.

 

The areas where the WWE is struggling now is in creative AND production (a topic that is never brought up). They are WAY behind the ball on production and Kevin Dunn - who was once the companies biggest asset is slowly but surely becoming their biggest liability. They need to bring in someone more in-touch with the current television and stage style, because Dunn is still stuck in 1999-mode in terms of how the programming comes off.

 

Creatively, as mentioned many-a-times, Steph leading the team is such a bad idea on many levels. For one, she's a woman whereas the majority of the WWE audience is men. For two, she's Vinces daughter so there is no way she'd tell Daddy something that would upset him. For three, she has a major conflict of interest in her marriage with HHH. As soon as that happened she should have been given another role in the company. They have a wealth of great wrestling minds under them, but there is no way those voices would get heard with Steph in the way and Vince with the blinders on.

 

I don't think Vince -on his own-, in this day-and-age could ever start-up a new promotion and have it become successful. He's not even intouch with what HE wants, let alone what the crowd wants. His view on wrestling -though 'revolutionary' in the 80's - is completely out-of-date for today. He still looks at the fans as 'marks', and he will never get out of that viewpoint. The consumer market has changed dramatically in the past 10 years, and he doesn't even know it.

[Lil' Bitch 0]

The reason I'm real furious with Vince right now is because of his favoritism towards RAW over Smackdown.

 

Exactly. What's the fucking point of having the brand compeition if Vince will always put RAW over SD? Its fucking sad when Vince puts the former WCW title over his own WWE Championship belt.

[Chazz 0]

Vince lost touch with reality In November 2000. That's when he stupidly replaced the departing Chris Kreski with Stephanie McMahon as Head of The Creative Team. The rest Is History.

[Silence 0]

Vince lost touch with reality In November 2000.  That's when he stupidly replaced the departing Chris Kreski with Stephanie McMahon as Head of The Creative Team.  The rest Is History. 

Which lead to.....this:

 

"I did it......for De Rock! I didn't do it for me, I did it for De Rock! I ran over.......Stone Cold!"

 

Rikishi as a main-eventer, ugh.

 

Edit: Wait, wasn't Rikishi pushed BEFORE Kreski left in November? It seems like he was. My mistake, ignore my above post.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

Hulk Hogan got a big pop in Toronto and Vince assumed that instead of remembering the 80s, fans wanted to relive it.

 

That was when it happened IMO.