Guest Loss Posted October 13, 2004 Report Posted October 13, 2004 Triple H and his over saturation is a reason for the decline, but to call him the main reason is incredible inaccurate and short sighted. Triple H's neverending push is the one constant over these past few years of constant decline. Seems like he'd be the main reason for it to me. It's a good thing you're an expert on business, too, then. And it's a good thing that you're actually bringing a counter-argument to this discussion. Stop trolling.
Guest bigm350 Posted October 13, 2004 Report Posted October 13, 2004 Jericho hasn't really had a chance to help business. Unless you count the godawful poop-scooping reign he had from Dec 01 to March 02.
Hunter's Torn Quad Posted October 13, 2004 Report Posted October 13, 2004 yeah but at the same time all we hear constantly is Benoit hasn't helped business, Orton hasn't helped business, Jericho hasn't helped business, HBK hasn't helped business...so if that's the case, what does it matter is HHH is on top or not? Benoit didn't help business, though he didn't harm it either, because he was never pushed as the 'next' World Champion, because he was never going to be. Benoit got the belt both because it was the climax of a great storyline, but primarily so Triple H could win it back. Orton was intended to be, but they quickly realised that Orton didn't have the juice required, so they got the belt off of him, and back to Triple H, so Randy could get the juice require to be the 'next' World Champion. Chris Jericho was in the same position as Benoit, and just a transitional champion, who got the belt solely to be the one who dropped it to Triple H. Neither of those three deserve much, if any, blame for business during their title runs, because neither was pushed as the World Champion and the face of the company. During the runs of Benoit and Jericho, other people were the most pushed, and neither was given the real chance to be the face of the company, and/or a true World Champion. And it matters if Triple H is on top, because until things change, they'll never get better, because WWE will always seem stale with him on top all the time.
Guest Loss Posted October 13, 2004 Report Posted October 13, 2004 yeah but at the same time all we hear constantly is Benoit hasn't helped business, Orton hasn't helped business, Jericho hasn't helped business, HBK hasn't helped business...so if that's the case, what does it matter is HHH is on top or not? The audience doesn't trust new guys on top anymore because HHH beats everyone who gets over. It's spiraled into other areas -- the booking has been so convoluted just to protect him at all times, and it's led to situations with babyfaces getting buried repeatedly. Shelton Benjamin would be a lot more over than he is now had newer stars been handled better the past few years.
Guest Salacious Crumb Posted October 13, 2004 Report Posted October 13, 2004 Shelton is an excellent example of why HHH has everything so fucked up. Even though he's beaten HHH several times he gets no rub because everyone expects HHH to get his job back when it means anything. Shelton also goes back to the even steven booking that plagues everyone who isn't HHH.
Black Lushus Posted October 13, 2004 Report Posted October 13, 2004 True....was Shelton even on Raw this past monday...I know last week all he did was participate in a lumberjack match, and didn't he get RKOed at some point in that?
Hunter's Torn Quad Posted October 13, 2004 Report Posted October 13, 2004 And remember how Triple H reacted when Shelton demanded a rematch ? He laughed, acted like it was no big deal, and casually refused. How are we supposed to care about Shelton beating Triple H if Triple H doesn't even care ?
The Metal Maniac Posted October 13, 2004 Report Posted October 13, 2004 As much as it pains me to say this, I think that 30 years down the road, HHH will be the company line "best wrestler in history". Why? Well, there's his massive number of title reigns (which is growing still), the fact that they've already tried to call his feud with HBK the best in history, and the fact that he will be calling shots in the fed until the day he dies. I dunno how fans will remember him (I'll try not to, myself), but I think he will be the WWE's offical Best Wrestler Ever.
Guest Loss Posted October 13, 2004 Report Posted October 13, 2004 This is going to sound contradictory, but HHH winning most of his matches isn't the problem. He's the top guy and he should win most of his matches and have some credibility. But ... there should be some element of chase and suspense surrounding his feuds. Jericho should still be chasing that elusive win over HHH, and when he finally gets it, he's catapulted to superstardom instantly. If they forced themselves to do clean finishes 99% of the time, and then told themselves they had to make the guys they're wanting to elevate look as good in title matches as possible, they could actually lose to HHH and come out stronger for it. We saw that happen with many Ric Flair, Bret Hart and Jumbo Tsuruta challengers. HHH usually dominates 80% of the match, the face makes a brief comeback, there's a ref bump and HHH cheats to win. HHH getting his ass handed to him but winning in the end while his opponent making a great showing would make both him and his opponent look better. The booking lacks discipline. As it stands, Shelton would have benefitted more from multiple, competitive matches with HHH where he comes legitimately closer to winning every time than he has getting a half dozen cheap victories over him.
Guest Fook Posted October 13, 2004 Report Posted October 13, 2004 True....was Shelton even on Raw this past monday...I know last week all he did was participate in a lumberjack match, and didn't he get RKOed at some point in that? Nope. Shelton isn't getting a push at all. He's one of the possible contenders for the IC title (and Jericho/Benjamin could be a great match), but they haven't even mentioned him. Instead, they're focusing on Batista and Christian, who've each had about a bazillion and a half matches with Jericho in the past six months.
Black Lushus Posted October 13, 2004 Report Posted October 13, 2004 yeah Benjamin/Jericho was what popped into my head instantly, but I can tell Dave is who they have in mind...i don't mind Dave, but Benjamin would bring the better match...
Guest Salacious Crumb Posted October 13, 2004 Report Posted October 13, 2004 The other problem I have is it's impossible to get into anything on the show. If it gets even slightly interesting it just becomes "I wonder when HHH is going to stick his nose in this and ruin it." Eugene is another good example. HHH completely ruined Eugene.
Black Lushus Posted October 13, 2004 Report Posted October 13, 2004 welllllll, honestly though, how long could we have expected Eugene to be a top dog?
Guest Salacious Crumb Posted October 13, 2004 Report Posted October 13, 2004 He could still be going a lot stronger now had Triple H not gotten involved.
Guest Loss Posted October 13, 2004 Report Posted October 13, 2004 The point is, BL, they could have used that window they had to create a new heel. Instead, they gave the rub to HHH. I personally think Trish Stratus trying to seduce him romantically while Christian was injured and having him do his dirty work would have worked even better.
Hunter's Torn Quad Posted October 13, 2004 Report Posted October 13, 2004 3H didn't ruin Eugene, as much as his overpush killed him. Eugene got over big very quickly, as a cult novelty act, and, as usual, Vince and Co pushed him way too hard and fast for how he was considered by the fans, and they rebelled. Eugene could have had a much longer shelf life had they booked him better.
Guest Loss Posted October 13, 2004 Report Posted October 13, 2004 Might I also say: Booker what? Rob Van who? Jeff Hardy was once seen as a future star? Test was too?
Black Lushus Posted October 13, 2004 Report Posted October 13, 2004 Actually Loss, being a Regal mark I was hoping to see a Regal heel turn out of all of this...you know, Regal helps and coaches helps and coaches only to turn on him, and i know it's an old formula, but people WANT to hate Regal, so it woulda worked perfectly...the only problem is that they woulda just stuck him in with HHH, rather than having him be a comptetive heel...I know heel vs. heel doesn't always work, but why not have Regal, for example, beat up both Benoit AND HHH...
Brett Favre Posted October 13, 2004 Report Posted October 13, 2004 At the end though, they still only used him (Eugene) to get HHH over as an even bigger heel. Which wasn't needed at all. Try spreading it around, and maybe RAW wouldn't be so bad right now. Although personally, I liked what I saw at the end of RAW last week, with Edge, Benoit, and HBK.
Guest Loss Posted October 13, 2004 Report Posted October 13, 2004 Regal was the biggest tragedy of it all, actually, because the fans were (and still are, sorta) very into him and he could have been a top babyface. He and HHH had great chemistry. They never followed up.
Downhome Posted October 13, 2004 Report Posted October 13, 2004 I saw the title of this thread on the main folder listing, and a chill went through me, as I thought it meant HHH had died.
Black Lushus Posted October 13, 2004 Report Posted October 13, 2004 isn't there legit heat between the two as well?
Guest Loss Posted October 13, 2004 Report Posted October 13, 2004 isn't there legit heat between the two as well? They're actually great friends.
Black Lushus Posted October 13, 2004 Report Posted October 13, 2004 No wonder they work well together...
bob_barron Posted October 13, 2004 Report Posted October 13, 2004 Yea- Regal and HHH are best friends in WWE. Because of that I'm surprised they never blew off Regal v. HHH. Instead of the vote for the title thing I would've done a Falls Count Anywhere match between the two and just have them beat the hell out of each other for 20 minutes. HHH gets over but it's like at Fully Loaded 2000 where even though he won he's still bloody as hell and about to fall over. It'd give major rub to Regal. That one week Regal-HHH feud was great stuff.
The Metal Maniac Posted October 13, 2004 Report Posted October 13, 2004 "I wonder when HHH is going to stick his nose in this and ruin it." That's exactly how I see RAW. I can't force myself to care about ANYTHING on the program, because I know that when any angle ends, it'll end with HHH on top. Hell, Benoit is one of my favourite wrestlers, and I literally didn't give two shits about his title reign, because I was positive he was just going to job it to HHH in a month. And yeah, I may not have been exactly right, but it was HHH winning the title while Benoit was wrestling in the opening match a few months later. I think I was close enough.
AlaskanHero Posted October 13, 2004 Report Posted October 13, 2004 I don't think it's really fair to blame HHH for all of WWE's woes. I mean, Smackdown had stars and stuff during Trips' runs against....whoever Triple H was going against during that time. I don't remember much of what happened on Raw or Smackdown after the end of the Invasion.
Hunter's Torn Quad Posted October 13, 2004 Report Posted October 13, 2004 Nobody is blaming 3H for all WWE's woes. It's just he's the primary reason for them. Others can shoulder blame as well as 3H.
bobobrazil1984 Posted October 13, 2004 Report Posted October 13, 2004 As the guy who pretty much killed my interest in pro wrestling (remembered by me, at least )
Only The Strong Survive Posted October 13, 2004 Report Posted October 13, 2004 All of the comments you guys are making about Benoit and Jericho and Benjamin are all dead-on: Triple H always gets protected and everyone else gets treated like garbage. Benoit went from being World Champion to curtain-jerking with Tomko, Jericho's been stuck in mid-card hell for years, and Shelton's push was dead in the water because... well ultimately, the way everythign is booked is the reason why it's so bad. I know Triple H probably has a hand in most of this stuff, but it's being done so wrong, and at least half the blame falls in the lap of the bookers themselves who seem to be throwing crap at the walla and hoping it sticks, and getting rid of good ideas while letting bad ones flourish for months on end. You guys are righton this too: We'd definitely have more top stars if Triple H wasn't the focus of everything. On the topic of the thread, everyone on this board will remember Triple H as the political bastard who sabotaged WWE, but everyone else will believe the hype of Triple H being in the league of stars with Flair, Hogan, Hart, etc.
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