The OAO third and FINAL Presidential Debate Thread

[2GOLD 0]

Sorry, but anyone who thinks Cheney's daughter is fair game when Kerry/Edwards are really doing nothing in regards to the gay marriage issue that Bush and Co wasn't prepared to do is a constant and pointless cheap shot.

It wasn't that he was trying to "out" Cheney's daughter. It's been pretty well covered that she's been pretty visible about it already. He also wasn't trying to attack Cheney for having a gay daughter, he was attacking Cheney for denying his daughter rights that he has.

 

It was a shot to the character of the Vice President, not his daughter.

 

The same rights that Kerry and Edwards are going to deny?

It's not like the Kerry/Edwards camp are FOR gay marriage so what point do they have?

 

They have no point. None. They are just saying it to be dickweeds.

 

If they were pushing for gay marriage, fine. But they aren't.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

Civil unions grant those rights. While Bush hasn't publically done much other than play to his base regarding this issue, he did support legislation that put civil unions on legally thin ice.

[Guest GreatOne]

I'll call this debate a wash, when Schieffer starts out a debate about DOMESTIC issues with a question linked to Iraq, you know this is gonna be the equivalent of OU-Texas in the technically precise department.

 

Bush gets points for the crack on networks, which I'm sure Bob didn't appreciate but tough shit. And Kerry, totally out of left field, gets the Tony Soprano reference in.

 

Bush loses points for continually going back to EDUCATION!~, while Kerry does the same for endlessly harping on the TAX CUTS OF DOOM!~

 

And it wouldn't be Kerry without 'the plan', though he kept that down, to his credit.

 

I'd say both were looking to get the hell out of there as fast as possible.

 

Overall, it could go either way in regards to all three debates.

[Guest MikeSC]

Sorry, but anyone who thinks Cheney's daughter is fair game when Kerry/Edwards are really doing nothing in regards to the gay marriage issue that Bush and Co wasn't prepared to do is a constant and pointless cheap shot.

It wasn't that he was trying to "out" Cheney's daughter. It's been pretty well covered that she's been pretty visible about it already. He also wasn't trying to attack Cheney for having a gay daughter, he was attacking Cheney for denying his daughter rights that he has.

 

It was a shot to the character of the Vice President, not his daughter.

It's been "pretty visible" because the Dems MENTION IT IN EVERY DAMNED DEBATE, it seems.

 

It's not like SHE has been in front of the cameras, whoring it.

Here's the thing, in all three polls, Kerry won. Critically, independents went for Kerry 42 - 35 percent in the ABCNews poll. If these numbers hold, and the impression solidifies that Kerry won all three debates, Bush is in trouble.

The early flash polls are a joke and only serve to skew the coverage. The West Coast is the main area covered by them and it proves squat.

-=Mike

[jesse_ewiak 0]

So, those flash polls that showed a Cheyney win against Edwards were bunk too Mike? Admit it, your boy went at best 1 for 3 and the 1 was a weak blooper single.

[Guest MikeSC]

So, those flash polls that showed a Cheyney win against Edwards were bunk too Mike? Admit it, your boy went at best 1 for 3 and the 1 was a weak blooper single.

The flash polls are pure bunk.

-=Mike

[Guest whitemilesdavis]

I'll call this debate a wash, when Schieffer starts out a debate about DOMESTIC issues with a question linked to Iraq, you know this is gonna be the equivalent of OU-Texas in the technically precise department.

 

Bush gets points for the crack on networks, which I'm sure Bob didn't appreciate but tough shit. And Kerry, totally out of left field, gets the Tony Soprano reference in.

 

Bush loses points for continually going back to EDUCATION!~, while Kerry does the same for endlessly harping on the TAX CUTS OF DOOM!~

 

And it wouldn't be Kerry without 'the plan', though he kept that down, to his credit.

 

I'd say both were looking to get the hell out of there as fast as possible.

 

Overall, it could go either way in regards to all three debates.

 

Wow, I pretty much agree with that assessment.

 

Only thing is the last statement, I think Kerry walked away with the first debate, while the second and third were stalemates.

[Guest Crazy Dan]

Normally I would have watched this, but with the Yankees and Redsox playing and the fact I am voting Kerry, regardless of his few/many faults makes me kinda glad I missed the fun last night. But from what I have read and watched on Fox/CNN, it appears this was a push as neither seemed to get to the point and both got way off topic. And it is your typical partisan view. Republican analysts will say Bush won and the Democrats do the same. Also, many called this the most lackluster debate of the three. From my guess, Kerry was able to recite fact after fact, but this might have been his worse debate out of the three. While Bush has improved from the first debate, but from the clips I saw, it was more of the "Liberal-From-Mass" and "Raise Taxes" and he was just as guilty by changing the subject often, which Kerry is guilty of too. So I don't see any real jump on either side.

 

Overall, Kerry was able to pull himself out of the hole created by the GOP Conv and Swift Boats. Kerry needed this or it would have been over. Now we have a race that will show how divided this country really is. Expect another nail biter on Nov. 2. Also, I am glad we finally got to the issues and not talking about what might have happened many years ago, which is a good thing and something that should have been the focus from the get-go. I am not sure what happens now. So those battleground states are very important to say the least. I think Kerry did a great job in these debates, as he allowed himself to get better known. Also, I feel Kerry better explained his plan than Bush. Bush I will say improved with each debate. But I do think that the lack of Press Confrences and holding Town Meetings where you have to sign a loyalty oath while you get to praise the Pres. and tell him that God wants him to be Pres. did not help and the first debate showed how Bush this. That is why Kerry closed the gap. But to give credit, Bush listened to his advisors, made adjustments, and despite losing the 2nd and maybe the third, he didn't lose by much and will get votes because he is more likeable than Kerry. Bush might have lost it, but he held tight.

[Guest MikeSC]

I think we can all agree that Schieffer was one shitty mod. Why Bush allowed a CBS guy to do it is beyond me.

-=Mike

[Guest whitemilesdavis]

I can agree with that, and I thought all 3 were pretty poor. Next time they should get that chick from THe Weakest Link.

[Guest MikeSC]

BTW, somebody might need to muzzle ELIZABETH EDWARDS, in addition to the already psychotic Teresa Kerry.

Elizabeth Edwards, during an interview with ABC News Radio this morning had the following response:

 

"It makes me really sad that that's Lynne's response. I think that it indicates a certain degree of shame with respect to her daughter's sexual preferences that I'm certain makes her daughter uncomfortable. That makes me very sad on a personal level."

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/TheNote/story?id=156238

 

And the classy DNC operatives:

Following the Dowd interview on Fox, Kerry spokesperson Debra DeShong defended Kerry saying:

 

" VP Cheney talks about having a gay daughter (Cheney talked about his daughter once on Aug. 24 in Davenport, IA).

 

" Kerry and the Democrats see nothing wrong with having a gay member of your family

 

" If Lynne Cheney has a problem, it's something that she needs to work with her family

 

" The Republicans are the ones who use gay issues to divide American and cited West Virginia mailer regarding Bible and gay marriage

Same source.

-=Mike

[DerangedHermit 0]

Next time they should get that chick from THe Weakest Link.

That would be awesome.

[Justice 0]

I can agree with that, and I thought all 3 were pretty poor. Next time they should get that chick from THe Weakest Link.

Hey, then we could add in all the third party guys.

 

"Mr. Nader, you are the Weakest Link. Goodbye."

[Guest whitemilesdavis]

When Edwards mentioned Cheney's daughter, I thought it was a sincere statement, and I thought the VP appreciated it. However, last night showed that the democrats do intend to use her as an issue of some sort. I don't see the point, and I do find it a bit dirty.

[Guest whitemilesdavis]

Hey, then we could add in all the third party guys.

 

"Mr. Nader, you are the Weakest Link. Goodbye."

 

The debates with Ross Perot were so much more entertaining than these.

[Guest MikeSC]

Out of curiosity, if Bush IS this far-right Satan that the left has portrayed him as being for the last 4 years --- why hasn't Kerry once tried to describe Bush as "too conservative" during the debates?

-=Mike

...Laughing at this morning's NPR "Morning Edition" where human rights groups bitched that Bush was giving TOO much for African AIDS, because they can't handle it and larger companies are bidding on the contracts...

[Guest Crazy Dan]

No he isn't. Sure I don't like how he handled Iraq, nor the fact he never admits he makes mistakes. We went into Iraq on false premises, and the reason went from a valid reason to "Saddam is Bad". At least admit that you screwed up, instead of trying to spin it, which I view him doing. I also think his environmental policies have been a joke. And I still don't like the fact that our energy policies were held secretly with only Big Energy representatives, some of which came from Enron. And being that Enron was corrupted on the top, helped create an energy crisis in Cal, which cost the state I live in billions, and the facte that the Co. screwed over workers and stockholders as well. I definately think this company has no right to help decide the energy policies of this country, it is an example of how a company should not be ran. Not to say that they don't deserve a voice, but this is something that needs more view points to make sure that the policy doesn't favor one side only. And the whole Gay-Marriage ban goes against the ideals of this country. I understand that many do not like homosexuality and think it is a sin and that these people choose to be gay because they hate God or whatever reason people give. I just do not like the fact that he wanted to make an Amendment to a the Constitution that would disclude a group of people. I say let the states decide and leave it at that.

 

But as a liberal fellow, I don't get the hatred that many seem to display at Bush. Sure I think he has not been the best President, but he is not the worse by no means. He loves America and is doing what he thinks is best. And I did think he handled the 9-11 aftermath great. He helped us get through, so I can't hate him with a passion. Maybe it is resentment over 2000. I can see why the anger is there. It is hard to watch your candidate win the popular vote, but lose the Electoral College vote. But, if this had been the other way around, I definately could see Limbaugh, Coulter, and Hannity among many Republicans complaining as just as much and maybe even more so. I remember reading that this was what the Bush camp thought might happen. But, I do agree that despite the chance of not winning the popular vote, the Electoral College needs to stay in order to give all the states a chance to be heard and not just states like California and New York. And I think that there was definately a conflict of intrest in Florida, being that the Gov and Secretary of State (or what ever her title was) were either Bush's brother or head of the Florida campaign. But I will leave it at that. And one last image was when there was an attempt a recount, which was allowed under Florida law, I will remember the blockade that prevented the recount and the Supreme Court ruling, which also rubbed people the wrong way. So 2000 really seperated this country. And many people feel that Gore was the winner, even though he did lose. Some people can't let go.

 

I am sure I would like Bush if I met him. But I can't explain the hatred, nor will I attempt to. To do so would need a psycologist and many studies into the mind. I think many do not like his policies and Iraq is also a big part of it. Heck, I was all for taking down Bin Ladin, who did claim responsiblity, but 3 years later and he is still alive? So speaking for myself and only myself, I as moderate-liberal, do not hate Bush, I don't like his policies. But if he wins, I will go on living and won't be seen on the streets protesting. But I can understand why many would have this hatred, I agree that this is overreaction that is has spun into hatred.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

BTW, somebody might need to muzzle ELIZABETH EDWARDS, in addition to the already psychotic Teresa Kerry.

 

And the classy DNC operatives:

 

Same source.

-=Mike

I don't really care because so far all the Cheneys' outrage has been expressed at rallys with supporters instead of interviews, and at those events they're giving the crowd pleasers that people want to hear, and the crowd pleaser is "John Kery = Lying, low-balling, scum sucking moron who will say anything to win and weaken America, after he's finally decided what shirt he's going to wear that day."

 

While I don't think they're actually happy about the remarks, a stump speech is a pretty disengenous place to talk about how you really reel.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

why hasn't Kerry once tried to describe Bush as "too conservative" during the debates?

-=Mike

Kerry's debate performances have been the kind of softer debating you don't see much anymore because all anyone outside of politics wants to hear is vague words in a decisive tone followed up with a catchy soundbite.

 

Kerry's attacks on Bush for not accomplishing things were of the iron fist in a velvet glove variety. Without saying much more about Bush than "The President's policies have failed" or "This President has failed to accomplish (X)", he still managed to look more knowledgable and aware of the situation than Bush did. I think the only thing that hurt him was "let me go back to that last question", but even when it happen he didn't let it fill up his time.

 

 

There's also a second matter, that the GOP have demonized the word liberal quite a bit over the past few years. Now everyone takes a step back from the word, afraid to be associated with it, accusing it of being some baseless title that gets slinged across party lines. The Republicans have not taken the same issues with conservative, and have little objection if you substitute one word for the other.

[Guest MikeSC]

BTW, somebody might need to muzzle ELIZABETH EDWARDS, in addition to the already psychotic Teresa Kerry.

 

And the classy DNC operatives:

 

Same source.

      -=Mike

I don't really care because so far all the Cheneys' outrage has been expressed at rallys with supporters instead of interviews, and at those events they're giving the crowd pleasers that people want to hear, and the crowd pleaser is "John Kery = Lying, low-balling, scum sucking moron who will say anything to win and weaken America, after he's finally decided what shirt he's going to wear that day."

 

While I don't think they're actually happy about the remarks, a stump speech is a pretty disengenous place to talk about how you really reel.

They don't want her mentionined PERIOD. And Dick has not uttered a word and Lynne only mentioned it RIGHT AFTER IT HAPPENED.

 

How about Bush brings up Edwards' dead son? Would THAT be over-the-line?

 

This is rather disgusting gay-baiting by the Dems and they ought to be ashamed of themselves --- but the Dems have shown no capacity for shame in years.

 

And Bush's "A plan is not a collection of complaints" line was the best of all of the debates.

-=Mike

[Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0]

Actually, Kerry's "Tony Soprano" line has gotten more play in the national news and was far more clever than Bush's.

[Guest MikeSC]

Actually, Kerry's "Tony Soprano" line has gotten more play in the national news and was far more clever than Bush's.

Clever and witty --- for John Kerry.

 

For somebody with an IQ above room temperature, nah, not really.

-=Mike

[Justice 0]

BTW, somebody might need to muzzle ELIZABETH EDWARDS, in addition to the already psychotic Teresa Kerry.

 

And the classy DNC operatives:

 

Same source.

      -=Mike

I don't really care because so far all the Cheneys' outrage has been expressed at rallys with supporters instead of interviews, and at those events they're giving the crowd pleasers that people want to hear, and the crowd pleaser is "John Kery = Lying, low-balling, scum sucking moron who will say anything to win and weaken America, after he's finally decided what shirt he's going to wear that day."

 

While I don't think they're actually happy about the remarks, a stump speech is a pretty disengenous place to talk about how you really reel.

That's wrong. CNN has been showing an interview with him denouncing Kerry's comments all day.

[Guest MikeSC]

BTW, somebody might need to muzzle ELIZABETH EDWARDS, in addition to the already psychotic Teresa Kerry.

 

And the classy DNC operatives:

 

Same source.

      -=Mike

I don't really care because so far all the Cheneys' outrage has been expressed at rallys with supporters instead of interviews, and at those events they're giving the crowd pleasers that people want to hear, and the crowd pleaser is "John Kery = Lying, low-balling, scum sucking moron who will say anything to win and weaken America, after he's finally decided what shirt he's going to wear that day."

 

While I don't think they're actually happy about the remarks, a stump speech is a pretty disengenous place to talk about how you really reel.

That's wrong. CNN has been showing an interview with him denouncing Kerry's comments all day.

[JOTW]Look, he's making it a campaign issue! HE HATES HIS DAUGHTER! OMGLOL!!![/JOTW]

-=Mike

[Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0]

Kerry's mentioning Cheney's daughter was a political move. Cheney retorting by making this an issue is a political move.

[bob_barron 0]

Tony Soprano isn't the big issue...this is-

 

By VICKIE CHACHERE, Associated Press Writer

 

WASHINGTON - Dick Cheney (news - web sites) and his wife say they are angry at John Kerry (news - web sites) for invoking their lesbian daughter during the final presidential debate. Kerry says he was just trying to say something nice about how the Cheneys have dealt with the issue and meant no offense.

 

Temperatures have risen sharply since the vice presidential debate, just last week, when Democrat Sen. John Edwards (news - web sites) mentioned Mary Cheney and the Republican vice president thanked him for his "kind words."

 

 

This time, a back-and-forth ensued that had the vice president's wife, Lynne Cheney, accusing Sen. Kerry of a "cheap and tawdry political trick" and Elizabeth Edwards, wife of Kerry's running mate, suggesting Mrs. Cheney was ashamed of her daughter.

 

 

Debating President Bush (news - web sites) Wednesday night, Kerry referred to Mary Cheney when asked whether homosexuality is a choice.

 

 

"We're all God's children," he said. "And I think if you were to talk to Dick Cheney's daughter, who is a lesbian, she would tell you that she's being who she was. She's being who she was born as. I think if you talk to anybody, it's not a choice."

 

 

Bush said he didn't know if it was a choice or not. But no one was talking about that on Thursday.

 

 

Kerry's defenders said he was well within bounds, particularly given that Cheney has also talked about his daughter when discussing gay issues.

 

 

But both the vice president and his wife went after Kerry with strong words.

 

 

"You saw a man who will do and say anything to get elected," Cheney told a rally in Fort Myers, Fla. "And I am not just speaking as a father here, although I am a pretty angry father."

 

 

He told a local TV station: "I thought it was totally inappropriate."

 

 

Mrs. Cheney was even sharper as she denounced Kerry after a debate party in the Pittsburgh suburb of Coraopolis, Pa., Wednesday night.

 

 

"This is not a good man," she said. "Of course, I am speaking as a mom, and a pretty indignant mom. This is not a good man. What a cheap and tawdry political trick."

 

 

A campaign spokeswoman said Mary Cheney declined to comment.

 

 

The communications director for Bush-Cheney, Nicolle Devenish, said Kerry miscalculated the impact of his remarks and now is "backpedaling from what is a crass, below-the-belt political strategy to attack the vice president's daughter."

 

 

She said his statement constituted "a political mistake that I think they'll pay a hefty price for."

 

 

Kerry responded Thursday that he did not mean to offend anyone.

 

 

"I love my daughters. They love their daughter. I was trying to say something positive about the way strong families deal with the issue," he said in a statement.

 

 

 

 

 

John Edwards' wife, Elizabeth, was harsher, suggesting Mrs. Cheney might be ashamed of her daughter.

 

"She's overreacted to this and treated it as if it's shameful to have this discussion. I think that's a very sad state of affairs," she told ABC radio. "I think that it indicates a certain amount of shame with respect to her daughter's sexual preferences."

 

Some prominent politicians who have struggled with the issue said Thursday that Kerry's comments were well within bounds. "I think what John Kerry said was very kind," said Rep. Dick Gephardt (news - web sites), D-Mo., whose daughter is a lesbian.

 

Former Republican Rep. Steve Gunderson, who is gay, said: "It's trying to put a human face and make clear the issue of one's sexual orientation does not honor partisan lines."

 

Sen. John McCain (news, bio, voting record), traveling with Bush Thursday, didn't buy it.

 

"Maybe Sen. Kerry didn't appreciate the sensitivity" of the subject, McCain, R-Ariz., told reporters on Air Force One. "Whether intended or not, it was very inappropriate."

 

Mary Cheney, who is openly gay, runs operations in the vice president's campaign office.

 

She and her partner were an established couple and owned a house together in Colorado when Dick Cheney was picked as Bush's running mate in 2000. Mary Cheney, who had run a gay and lesbian outreach program for Coors Brewing Co., wears a gold band on her left hand.

 

The pair sat side by side in the vice president's box during his acceptance speech at the Republican National Convention, though neither joined the family onstage afterward, and neither was in sight for the convention finale a day later.

 

The Cheneys' other daughter, Liz, also works on the campaign and sometimes introduces her dad on the campaign trail.

 

The vice president spoke this summer about his daughter's sexuality and his view of gay relationships. He also publicly disagreed with Bush about the need for a constitutional amendment prohibiting same-sex marriages, saying he preferred that the states settle the issue.

 

"Lynne and I have a gay daughter, so it's an issue our family is very familiar with," Cheney told a Davenport, Iowa, audience that included his daughter. "With respect to the question of relationships, my general view is freedom means freedom for everyone."

 

The vice president stated no objection when Edwards, a North Carolina senator, brought up Mary Cheney during their debate last week. Edwards expressed "respect for the fact that they're willing to talk about the fact that they have a gay daughter, the fact that they embrace her. It's a wonderful thing."

 

Cheney thanked his opponent for the "kind words he said about my family and our daughter. I appreciate that very much."

 

In Wednesday night's debate, Bush and Kerry each said they believe marriage should be restricted to the union of a man and a woman, but the president supports a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage and Kerry does not. Kerry does support giving gay couples many of the civil rights that come with marriage.

[Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0]

You mean... *gasp*... an AP writer talked about Cheney's appearances today?

 

GET OUT OF TOWN.

 

It's not even in the top 10 news stories today.

[bob_barron 0]

It was one of the top stories at Yahoo! In the News and Fox News.

[Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0]

The big story today is that every polling firm has confirmed that Kerry is the winner of all three debates. Even a loaded WP/AP poll (which sampled 8% more Republicans than Democrats) agrees that Kerry pulled out the victory last night (42%-41%, even with the sampling bias).

 

Bush failed miserably in debating Kerry. That's the conclusion that America is drawing from these debates. Not this laughable Mary Cheney scandal or any other grasping-at-straws stories that Mike decides to post.

[Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0]

Commie News Network has it on the bottom of their front page.

 

That's big billing there.