And So it Begins

[strummer 0]

Mets and Al Leiter cease negotiations. His 7 year run with the Mets comes to an end Apparently he has multiple offers and the Yankees are still interested.

[mike546 0]

Great, just what we need.

 

ANOTHER pitcher who can't go more than 6 innings.

[The Czech Republic 0]

He'll end up in Florida.

[Guest Anglesault]

Great, just what we need.

 

ANOTHER pitcher who can't go more than 6 innings.

We're trying to corner the market on number five starters.

 

There's a strategy in that somewhere.

[DerangedHermit 0]

He'll end up in Florida.

Or in Philly. But more likely Florida, because they're said to have offered Leiter $7M a year

[Guest Anglesault]

So did the Yankees actually do something?  Or is this more pointless bitching?

It's legitimate conversation in a hot stove type thread. The Yankees have absolutely no valid game plan, and I really think that in some fans' rush to get young at all costs, people have brain washed themselves into thinking that backing Mussina up with four back end of the rotation type starters (An old, injury prone Wells, Lieber, Vazquez and Halsey/Duque/Milton) is a legitimate championship rotation.

Edited November 24, 2004 by Anglesault

[geniusMoment 0]

Bowden:

Traded Burba for Sean Casey

Got Pete Schourek for nothing from the mets

Signed John Smiley, both Pete and John helped Cincy make it to the 95 NLCS

Traded Smiley for Danny Graves after Smiley was already done

Traded Drew Henson for unber prospect and potential 50 home run man Wily Mo Pena

Convinced the team to take a chance on Adam Dunn even though the president of the team thought it was stupid to draft a college football player

Brought in Jeff Brantley as a closer, then brought in Jeff Shaw as a set up guy, before Brantley was moved for the valuable Dmitri Young

Traded nothing for Greg Vaughn, the leader and RBI and HR guy for the 99 team

Had deals in place for Scott Rolen and Bartolo Colon when the reds were in contention, both sides agreed to the deals but management nixed them due to money, all the reds would have given up was Brandon Larson and a couple of marginal prospects

Brought in Jose Guillen, who was a great success for the reds

Traded Bret Boone for Denny Neagle, Boone was horrible in Atlanta, Neagle led the Reds to a one game playoff in 99

Brought in Kevin Mitchell, who was outstanding, leading the reds into first place during the 94 season when the strike hit

He also brought in Tony Fernandez and Bip roberts, 2 other valuable players to that team

and many more good moves...

 

The deal on Bowden is this. He was told by reds management that the team would have a payroll of 70 million when they went into their new stadium, that offseason management decided to be cheap and Bowdens plan fell apart. Bowden had Larkin traded but Linder stepped in and signed him for 27 million over 3 years, then told Bowden to cut the budget. The Griffey deal was bad, but every gm would have made the sweet deal he made at the time.

 

Bowden had many flaws, and made some stupid moves (Paul O'Neill for Roberto Kelly) but to say, "What did Jim Bowden ever do" is pretty stupid in my opinion.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

So did the Yankees actually do something?  Or is this more pointless bitching?

It's legitimate conversation in a hot stove type thread. The Yankees have absolutely no valid game plan, and I really think that in this rush to get young at all costs, people have brain washed themselves into thinking that backing Mussina up with four back end of the rotation type starters (An old, injury prone Wells, Lieber, Vazquez and Halsey/Duque/Milton) is a legitimate championship rotation.

Do you have a source on the Yankees game plan? Have you spoken with Brian Cashman? I've seen the Yankees reported as speaking with just about every decent free agent starter on the market, including Pedro Martinez, Carl Pavano, David Wells, and Brad Radke. Besides, the Yankees do NOT need front line pitching talent. Their problem wasn't a lack of stars. It was that they had TERRIBLE pitchers once their front line crumbled. Their bullpen in particular was horrid after Quantrill, Rivera and Gordon.

 

Many fans want stars. What they do not realize is that replacing a poor player with an average player does just as much good as replacing an average player with a good one. With Sheffield, Rodriguez, Jeter, Matsui, Posada and Rivera, the team will compete. It has all the great players it needs. They just need to ensure that they aren't pushing pitchers on the field with 5+ ERAs.

 

Furthermore, Yankee pitching had the third best BB/K ratio in the American League. The team let an unusual number of balls in play become hits. You have not once addressed the issue of team defense. I am sure we can agree that a good defender will prevent hits. I am also sure we can agree those show up on a pitcher's stat line. This is not a defense of Javier Vazquez, just the pitching staff in general. Mike Mussina and Jon Lieber's ERAs in particular were much higher than one would suggest based on their peripherals.

 

If the Yankees keep splurging for front-line talent, they are going to run the potential of a bigger disaster than the one they have now.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Bowden had many flaws, and made some stupid moves (Paul O'Neill for Roberto Kelly) but to say, "What did Jim Bowden ever do" is pretty stupid in my opinion.

 

I agree. Color me shamed, as I really should have looked at the record more closely before passing judgment.

[Vern Gagne 0]

Twins sign Juan Castro.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

Mike Mussina and Jon Lieber's ERAs in particular were much higher than one would suggest based on their peripherals.

 

Blame the defence. Carlos Beltran will go a long way towards fixing that problem.

[mike546 0]

I agree with what most of you said Al, beside Moose.

 

He really was that bad for 3/4 of the season.

[KingPK 0]

But that's because he was suffering from injury. Once he went on the DL and had it taken care of, he was great (including the playoffs) so I don't think you really have to worry about him.

[mike546 0]

Oh, your right. I have no doutt he'll be the Moose of old next year.

 

But I'm saying before he got injured, like to the allstar break, he was horrible. That Japan trip really messed him up.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

The Milwaukee Brewers sign C Damian Miller for three years. The move is a bit of a risk, but Chad Moeller and Gary Bennett were absolutely terrible last season. Miller's hitting will look fairly good there.

 

The Cleveland Indians resigned closer Bob Wickman for one year. If the Indians upgrade their pitching staff, they can make a run at the AL Central title. The Indians used 30 pitchers last season. If they can solidify the bullpen, they will greatly improve the team. Sticking Wickman in the closer role is a good start.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

It is not ok to lift text and stories directly from ESPN Insider's Rumor Central. However, since ESPN's Rumor Central pretty much just gets their stories from other sources, and supplies the sources, one can easily track the rumors and provide readable sources. Here's what we've got for today.

 

http://www.nj.com/sports/ledger/index.ssf?...79056297450.xml

 

Another Johnson/Vazquez deal in the works, but Arizona is weary about paying Vazquez's full contract.

 

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/st...all+in+place%22

 

The Cardinals are also making a play for the Big Unit.

 

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...SPG60A0KPU1.DTL

 

Athletics talking trade with Pirates regarding Jason Kendall.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/24/sports/b...html?oref=login (Registration Required)

 

Leiter and Mets deal unlikely. Yankees could make a play for Leiter, as could Florida. Since this is a New York paper, they would obviously focus on the Yankee angle.

 

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/reds...sox_short_list/

 

Orlando Cabrera rumors.

 

http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view...articleid=55517

 

Mets showing interest in Pedro Martinez.

 

http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view...articleid=55510

 

Nomar Garciaparra rumors.

 

http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/s...ll/10258034.htm

 

Twins close to signing Mike Redmond, and are negotiating with Brad Radke.

 

http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/sports/10258220.htm

 

Phillies increase offer to David Wells.

[Guest Anglesault]

It was that they had TERRIBLE pitchers once their front line crumbled. Their bullpen in particular was horrid after Quantrill, Rivera and Gordon.

 

Many fans want stars. What they do not realize is that replacing a poor player with an average player does just as much good as replacing an average player with a good one.

Average pitching cost us the American League Championship. El Duque walking 37 people in four innings. Jon fucking Lieber being asked to beat Pedro Martinez and Curt Schilling in consecuative starts, because there was no one better than him. (And to his credit, he almost did) Kevin Brown and Javier Vazquez in general. Average pitching doomed us. The idea that the Yankees need more middle of the line pitching is absurd. We have the God damn market cornered on "eh" or "goodish" starters. The idea that defense is going to make a team of mediocre pitchers into five Walter Johnsons is insane.

 

 

You don't have to get five HOFers, but is it so much to ask to get a god damn ace? Or even someone to match Mussina? And to PLEASE stay away from the bad pitching? The idea of Eric Milton pitching to a David Ortiz at Yankee Stadium scares the crap out of me. That ball won't land.

[Bored 0]

Sporting News is reporting that the rumored Jason Kendall to the A's for Mark Redman and Arthur Rhodes deal is about to go through. Kendall has waived his no trade clause and the players just need to pass a physical now.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

It was that they had TERRIBLE pitchers once their front line crumbled.  Their bullpen in particular was horrid after Quantrill, Rivera and Gordon.

 

Many fans want stars.  What they do not realize is that replacing a poor player with an average player does just as much good as replacing an average player with a good one.

Average pitching cost us the American League Championship. El Duque walking 37 people in four innings. Jon fucking Lieber being asked to beat Pedro Martinez and Curt Schilling in consecuative starts, because there was no one better than him. (And to his credit, he almost did) Kevin Brown and Javier Vazquez in general. Average pitching doomed us. The idea that the Yankees need more middle of the line pitching is absurd. We have the God damn market cornered on "eh" or "goodish" starters. The idea that defense is going to make a team of mediocre pitchers into five Walter Johnsons is insane.

 

 

You don't have to get five HOFers, but is it so much to ask to get a god damn ace? Or even someone to match Mussina? And to PLEASE stay away from the bad pitching? The idea of Eric Milton pitching to a David Ortiz at Yankee Stadium scares the crap out of me. That ball won't land.

Average pitching in games 4-6 kept the Yankees in the game. Hell, the Yankees LED games 4 and 5 in the late innings, before the bullpen lost the lead both times. Game six was a loss because the Yankees only scored two runs. The only bad game for the starters in that group was game seven, and Kevin Brown and Javier Vazquez were clearly substandard in that situation.

 

If you have an ace starter, he is only going to start one of those games. Could he have won the series? Possibly. But alot of unexpected things occured in that series, and its hard to tell.

 

Besides, the best pitchers are not all that identifiable. Kevin Brown was the very definition of an ace, big game pitcher at the beginning of the season.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

The Washington Nationals traded Antonio Sucre to the Pittsburgh Pirates, for J.J. Davis. Quite a good deal for the Nationals, as Sucre doesn't have many apparent skills, while Davis can make a useful platoon partner for Termell Sledge.

[Guest Anglesault]

Average pitching in games 4-6 kept the Yankees in the game.

Hernandez completely fell apart in game 4. We get someone to go seven or eight innings and give up two runs, we have a different story.

 

Two runs can win the game with a top starter on the mound in Game 6.

 

If you have an ace starter, he is only going to start one of those games.

 

We only had to win one game. He could have also come in relief in Game Seven, as opposed to fucking Jome Run Javy.

 

Besides, the best pitchers are not all that identifiable. Kevin Brown was the very definition of an ace, big game pitcher at the beginning of the season.

 

But the idea is to aim for pitchers who you think (based on some kind of history and/or facts) could be an ace. That was the idea with both Brown and Contreras and Vazquez. It blew up in our face. That doesn't mean to change gears and waste roster spots on a guy who's not now a good pitcher, never was, and probably never will be, or some one year wonder, or a guy who's "decent enough"

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Two runs can win the game with a top starter on the mound in Game 6.

 

That assumes you find a starter who can hold the best offense in baseball to one run. It's unlikely.

 

But the idea is to aim for pitchers who you think (based on some kind of history and/or facts) could be an ace. That was the idea with both Brown and Contreras and Vazquez. It blew up in our face. That doesn't mean to change gears and waste roster spots on a guy who's not now a good pitcher, never was, and probably never will be, or some one year wonder, or a guy who's "decent enough"

 

The Yankees are making a serious run at Randy Johnson, and they are exploring other options. But beyond the aces, they need pitching across the board. Now is Milton a great pitcher? Of course not. But he'll eat innings, and you can do alot worse for your #5 starter. The problem the Yankees have is that there are really no ace starters available, outside of Pedro Martinez. You can swing a trade, but the Yankees have little to offer in their farm system right now. Their options are limited, and they need to patch the holes first and foremost. A group of average pitchers might not be the best solution. But it might not be possible to go otherwise.

[Guest Anglesault]

But beyond the aces, they need pitching across the board.

Of course.

 

Johnson-Mussina-Wells-Lieber-Hernandez.

 

Three guys up top you can feel comfortable with in a short series, a sturdy number four and a fifth guy that you can slide in with minimal damage.

 

Of course not. But he'll eat innings, and you can do alot worse for your #5 starter.

 

You can also do alot better. And I mean alot better. Nothing scares me more in Yankee Stadium than a meatbal pitcher who flat out can't get a lefty out. You could overlook the fact that he's awful against righties if he had good lefty numbers, but he doesn't. That's asking for trouble. And I don't want to be stuck with his huge contract over the next two years once we realize he's really not very good.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Of course.

 

Johnson-Mussina-Wells-Lieber-Hernandez.

 

Three guys up top you can feel comfortable with in a short series, a sturdy number four and a fifth guy that you can slide in with minimal damage.

 

Wells' back troubles hastened the end of the 2003 World Series, for what its worth. And I am not sure having two starters of exactly the same ilk in Wells and Lieber is a good idea. You can have one control, low strikeout guy. But back to back?

 

You can also do alot better. And I mean alot better. Nothing scares me more in Yankee Stadium than a meatbal pitcher who flat out can't get a lefty out. You could overlook the fact that he's awful against righties if he had good lefty numbers, but he doesn't. That's asking for trouble. And I don't want to be stuck with his huge contract over the next two years once we realize he's really not very good.

 

Milton's no star. But he's not that bad. He'll give you a 4.50 ERA and eat up innings. I am NOT suggesting the Yankees shell out big money for him. But IF, and I emphasize IF, a fair price comes along, the Yankees could use him.

[Guest Anglesault]

Wells' back troubles hastened the end of the 2003 World Series, for what its worth.

Shit happens.

 

Milton's no star. But he's not that bad.

 

I'm kind of jaded, after two straight years of "he's not THAT bad" biting me in the ass.

 

I don't want "not that bad" or "so-so" or "eh" I just want solid and dependable.

 

And God damnit, if one more person tells me "Oh, come on, you have to feel good for the fans in Boston" I might go on a rampage.

[MrRant 0]

"Oh, come on, you have to feel good for the fans in Boston"

[Guest Anglesault]

"Oh, come on, you have to feel good for the fans in Boston"

Funny.

Edited November 25, 2004 by Anglesault

[strummer 0]

Mike Redmond signs with the Twins to be their backup catcher. Sadly for Redmond, this means he will not be able to hit against Tom Glavine anymore.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

David Wells is no longer solid and dependable. I'd seriously rather have Milton than him. It sounds like you just want the big names, whether they are good anymore or not, which is exactly what has gotten your team in the trouble it is in right now. Signing Wells is something your crosstown rivals would do.

[the max 0]

While we were talking about the Yanks again...

 

The Dodgers signed Jim Tracy to an extension.

 

http://tsn.ca/mlb/news_story.asp?ID=105802&hubName=mlb