Paul Heyman Bashes TNA Promotion

[Precious Roy 0]

I have a hard time believing WCW ever had any interest in Sabu considering that he doesn't have an offensive maneuver that doesn't involve a chair or table and they were the least hardcore of the three.

 

Dude, this is the company that employed Public Enemy, ICP and members of the Misfits among others. This is the company that would sign ECW talent (Sandman, Mikey Whipwreck) and sit them on the sidelines for months just so ECW wouldn't have them. It's a fact that they tried to bring in Sabu again in the late 90's.

 

As stated, the reason ECW went from being profitable on a modest scale to a failure on a large scale is that Paul E. made some very bad business decisions. I think he saw the window closing on the boom, saw the constant talent raids depleting his roster, and he wanted to get in on the bonanza before it was over. It's clear that he takes a fair share of credit as the catlyst of the boom, as well he should, and he didn't want to be the odd man out in reaping the benefits. He should have just gone much slower, made the gradual national expansion as previously stated. PPV wasn't a grave mistake IMO but could have been handled better, maybe they should have waited another couple years, the video games, magazines and toys were bad moves, going to TNN was a very bad move, they just tried to do to much too soon in a market that was already flooded with product and on it's way down.

[The Czech Republic 0]

TNN has to share some of the blame for its promotion of the Friday night program which was abysmal, to say the least.

 

You know, it never did make sense for a Philadelphia show to be on the Nashville network, which it still was in 1999.

[what 0]

I have a hard time believing WCW ever had any interest in Sabu considering that he doesn't have an offensive maneuver that doesn't involve a chair or table and they were the least hardcore of the three.

 

Dude, this is the company that employed Public Enemy, ICP and members of the Misfits among others. This is the company that would sign ECW talent (Sandman, Mikey Whipwreck) and sit them on the sidelines for months just so ECW wouldn't have them. It's a fact that they tried to bring in Sabu again in the late 90's.

 

As stated, the reason ECW went from being profitable on a modest scale to a failure on a large scale is that Paul E. made some very bad business decisions. I think he saw the window closing on the boom, saw the constant talent raids depleting his roster, and he wanted to get in on the bonanza before it was over. It's clear that he takes a fair share of credit as the catlyst of the boom, as well he should, and he didn't want to be the odd man out in reaping the benefits. He should have just gone much slower, made the gradual national expansion as previously stated. PPV wasn't a grave mistake IMO but could have been handled better, maybe they should have waited another couple years, the video games, magazines and toys were bad moves, going to TNN was a very bad move, they just tried to do to much too soon in a market that was already flooded with product and on it's way down.

The wrestling boom wasn't on it's way down in 1999. Wrestling didn't start to decline until 2001. And I believe that TNN saved ECW at least temporarily as it would've folded two years earlier had they not went on TNN. I remember reading Paul E saying that somewhere.

[NoCalMike 0]

Besides the fact that ECW was on national TV, everything else about the TNN deal sucked.

[teke184 0]

I have a hard time believing WCW ever had any interest in Sabu considering that he doesn't have an offensive maneuver that doesn't involve a chair or table and they were the least hardcore of the three.

 

Dude, this is the company that employed Public Enemy, ICP and members of the Misfits among others. This is the company that would sign ECW talent (Sandman, Mikey Whipwreck) and sit them on the sidelines for months just so ECW wouldn't have them. It's a fact that they tried to bring in Sabu again in the late 90's.

 

As stated, the reason ECW went from being profitable on a modest scale to a failure on a large scale is that Paul E. made some very bad business decisions. I think he saw the window closing on the boom, saw the constant talent raids depleting his roster, and he wanted to get in on the bonanza before it was over. It's clear that he takes a fair share of credit as the catlyst of the boom, as well he should, and he didn't want to be the odd man out in reaping the benefits. He should have just gone much slower, made the gradual national expansion as previously stated. PPV wasn't a grave mistake IMO but could have been handled better, maybe they should have waited another couple years, the video games, magazines and toys were bad moves, going to TNN was a very bad move, they just tried to do to much too soon in a market that was already flooded with product and on it's way down.

WCW employed Sabu at the end of 1995, when he was between ECW runs, then told him to get out. Apparently, everything The Sheik taught him about doing business made people think he was an asshole.

 

 

 

When Tod Gordon tried to get Terry Taylor to sign a big group of ECW guys onto WCW in 1997, Taylor started trying to get names of who wanted in and was VERY unhappy when Sabu's name was mentioned. He still had a lot of heat from his last run in the company.

[Precious Roy 0]

The wrestling boom wasn't on it's way down in 1999. Wrestling didn't start to decline until 2001. And I believe that TNN saved ECW at least temporarily as it would've folded two years earlier had they not went on TNN. I remember reading Paul E saying that somewhere.

 

It hit it's peak in 1999, and anyone with a brain could see that they couldn't maintain that peak for very long. Wrestling had hit cultural overkill at that point, especially with the merchandise, and the "fad" backlash was inevitable.

 

Trying to ride that wave in 99 and gambling the entire promotion on it was a BIG mistake. ECW would still be around today if they'd gone slow and steady.

 

As for TNN, that was the last straw. TNN used ECW to test the market for the potential deal with Titan. They were never commited to ECW as a brand, and like the last poster said, all ECW got was exposure, but even that wasn't worth the sacrifices they had to make.

[LucharesuFan619 0]

Dave Meltzer, Wade Keller, Bryan Alvarez - anyone who knows anything about wrestling history will tell you WCW had interest in Sabu. In fact, WCW USED Sabu numerous times around '96 in matches with Jerry Lynn, Chris Kanyon, and others. He was on Halloween Havoc one year and was on Nitro numerous times.

 

I don't know Sabu or New Jack, but I know close friends of both, and the XPW info comes from people very close to each of them and - with Sabu - people who worked for XPW and helped supply the money. Heyman tried to screw both Jack and Sabu. Jack has told the rape story himself numerous times on TrashTalkingRadio.com, Getinthering.tv, AudioWrestling.com, and other wrestling audio shows.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

WCW employed Sabu at the end of 1995, when he was between ECW runs, then told him to get out. Apparently, everything The Sheik taught him about doing business made people think he was an asshole.

To be specifc, Sabu had heat for going longer in tv matches than he was meant to, and brawling outside the ring when he wasn't supposed to. Sabu only found out he was fired because they mentioned on Nitro that a WCW wrestler had been fired and to call the 900 Hotline to find out who. Sabu called up, and that's how he heard. They didn't even call the guy or Fed-Ex him his notice.

[LucharesuFan619 0]

WCW employed Sabu at the end of 1995, when he was between ECW runs, then told him to get out.  Apparently, everything The Sheik taught him about doing business made people think he was an asshole.

To be specifc, Sabu had heat for going longer in tv matches than he was meant to, and brawling outside the ring when he wasn't supposed to. Sabu only found out he was fired because they mentioned on Nitro that a WCW wrestler had been fired and to call the 900 Hotline to find out who. Sabu called up, and that's how he heard. They didn't even call the guy or Fed-Ex him his notice.

WOW, really? That's funny. Sabu watching Nitro is funny enough, but him calling the WCW hotline...LOL.

[Precious Roy 0]

WCW employed Sabu at the end of 1995, when he was between ECW runs, then told him to get out. Apparently, everything The Sheik taught him about doing business made people think he was an asshole.

 

When Tod Gordon tried to get Terry Taylor to sign a big group of ECW guys onto WCW in 1997, Taylor started trying to get names of who wanted in and was VERY unhappy when Sabu's name was mentioned. He still had a lot of heat from his last run in the company.

 

This is all true, but I believe we're talking about Sabu being brought in in 2000 shortly after the Radicalz jumped, which WCW was set to do until Heyman blocked it.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Re: Heyman screwing Sabu over in regards to Sabu going to WCW in 2000.

 

Because Heyman had fallen behind on PPV payoffs, Sabu considered that a breach of contract, and felt he was now a free agent. He negotiated a deal with WCW, and he was set to appear on the Feb 14th 2000 Nitro. Heyman found out, and stopped it, claiming Sabu was still under contract. WCW backed out of the deal, and Sabu was stuck in ECW. A month or so later, at an ECW Arena show, Heyman wrote out a scenario where a Sabu v SomeGuyIDon'tKnow match would see Super Crazy run-in, put Sabu through a table and pin him. Sabu refused to do the job, Heyman considered that a breach of contract, and forced Sabu to sit out on the sidelines for the remainder of his deal. It's believed that Heyman wrote the scenario out, something he never did, to legally protect himself, as he would have documented proof that Sabu refused to do what was asked of him.

[strummer 0]

Before I sign off, I just wanted to mention another great point Heyman made about ECW. He was talking about how they showed a clip of Rey Jr. losing, but the match was excellent and that is what mattered in ECW. He talked about how it didn't really matter who won or lost, as long as the match was good, and that everyone left the ring with more then they walked to the ring with. I think that is also a major problem in WWE right now and over the past few years is that people go out of their way to book matches in order to make someone else look like crap, even though they are retaining a title in the process, and that is just not good for business and screams of self promotion.

This is a good point, but one of my (few) problems with ECW was that they would have 15-20 minute squash matches, or basically extended squashes, which in my mind, were totally unrealistic. I mean there is only so many times you can watch Tommy Dreamer get his ass kicked for 20 minutes and then be "Shocked" when he lost. Joey Styles would totally oversell when Tommy was pinned, because he was basically getting squashed in guise of an actual competive, back and forth match. These types of "back and forth"matches were supposed to climax in an emotional outcome, but Tommy getting pinned was inevitable, thus killing the emotional impact of the finish. I think Heyman wanted EVERY match to be good. While that is a good idea in theory, sometimes you need one guy to look a lot better than another. There was no need for RVD to need 25 minutes to beat Spike Dudley when no one in the arena or at home knew Spike had a chance in hell of winning. Plus, some guys just shouldn't be in the ring for over 20 minutes and Heyman did that a lot with Shane Douglas, Pitbulls, Dudleys, etc.

[NoCalMike 0]

Before I sign off, I just wanted to mention another great point Heyman made about ECW.  He was talking about how they showed a clip of Rey Jr. losing, but the match was excellent and that is what mattered in ECW.  He talked about how it didn't really matter who won or lost, as long as the match was good, and that everyone left the ring with more then they walked to the ring with.  I think that is also a major problem in WWE right now and over the past few years is that people go out of their way to book matches in order to make someone else look like crap, even though they are retaining a title in the process, and that is just not good for business and screams of self promotion.

This is a good point, but one of my (few) problems with ECW was that they would have 15-20 minute squash matches, or basically extended squashes, which in my mind, were totally unrealistic. I mean there is only so many times you can watch Tommy Dreamer get his ass kicked for 20 minutes and then be "Shocked" when he lost. Joey Styles would totally oversell when Tommy was pinned, because he was basically getting squashed in guise of an actual competive, back and forth match. These types of "back and forth"matches were supposed to climax in an emotional outcome, but Tommy getting pinned was inevitable, thus killing the emotional impact of the finish. I think Heyman wanted EVERY match to be good. While that is a good idea in theory, sometimes you need one guy to look a lot better than another. There was no need for RVD to need 25 minutes to beat Spike Dudley when no one in the arena or at home knew Spike had a chance in hell of winning. Plus, some guys just shouldn't be in the ring for over 20 minutes and Heyman did that a lot with Shane Douglas, Pitbulls, Dudleys, etc.

Well I would say that ECW in their later days became a more conventional fed, as in they featured your basic squash matches to promote wrestlers, but that was because they needed to expose themselves to a new audience FAST and they needed to establish who their stars were and showcase them, as opposed to the good ol' days of 94-97, when ECW's fanbase was small enough that everyone knew of every worker in the federation, and every match truly felt like it could go either way because the booking was pretty unpredictable and unorthodox.

[Guest M. Harry Smilac]

Dave Meltzer, Wade Keller, Bryan Alvarez - anyone who knows anything about wrestling history will tell you WCW had interest in Sabu. In fact, WCW USED Sabu numerous times around '96 in matches with Jerry Lynn, Chris Kanyon, and others. He was on Halloween Havoc one year and was on Nitro numerous times.

 

I don't know Sabu or New Jack, but I know close friends of both, and the XPW info comes from people very close to each of them and - with Sabu - people who worked for XPW and helped supply the money. Heyman tried to screw both Jack and Sabu. Jack has told the rape story himself numerous times on TrashTalkingRadio.com, Getinthering.tv, AudioWrestling.com, and other wrestling audio shows.

Damn so you didn't even get it from Jack or Sabu themselves?I kinda thought maybe you did and didn't wanna call what you said as straight bullshit but now I will.

 

New Jack is a disgruntled fuck who can't get a job anywhere of note so i'd take anything he says with a grain of salt.

 

If I was to start believing every story passed around by indy nobodies i'd have believed everything in the "wrestling's scummiest stories" thread over at dvdr.

[Dewe 0]

Awesome episode of Byte This. Even Smart Mark Josh was good this time.

 

Paul Heyman to Mark Lloyd:

"You are a wonderful announcer. You are the next Gene Okerlund. We all love you!"

 

Two questions:

1. Didn't Super Crazy live with Rob Feinstein?

2. Was La Parka ever in ECW? I can't recall...

[deancoles 0]

Was La Parka ever in ECW? I can't recall...

He was at the ECW arena show on October 28, 1995 and him and Psicosis lost to Konnan and Rey Misterio Jr. by count out.

 

I'm surprised they didn't bring him in after he left WCW, he'd have been perfect for them.

[Eclipse 0]

They got away with alot of stuff on air! Will the higher ups approve of what was said? I smell repercussions...

[Jobber of the Week 0]

He noted that TNA have lost more money in two years than he lost in seven years running ECW.

Man, when Paul E is bashing your financial missteps... Wow.

[Guest MikeSC]

He noted that TNA have lost more money in two years than he lost in seven years running ECW.

Man, when Paul E is bashing your financial missteps... Wow.

I can only imagine what Cornette would say.

 

I remember his line about 2000 WCW: They lost $60M in one year. How in the world is that even possible? I could run a company, charge nothing for attendance, and not lose even a tiny fraction of that in a year.

-=Mike

[Jobber of the Week 0]

I can only imagine what Cornette would say.

 

I remember his line about 2000 WCW: They lost $60M in one year. How in the world is that even possible? I could run a company, charge nothing for attendance, and not lose even a tiny fraction of that in a year.

      -=Mike

Well, running an indy isn't exactly cheap for the people who run them, especially if you're going to buy into the usual suspects who are more about name recognition than quality wrestling.

 

The problem to me is that TNA hasn't really proven why they're better from the average indy aside from having a high-profile filming location at Universal Studios. They've proven in a lot of ways how they're worse. It feels like Retirement Home 2.0. Like someone realized that with WCW out of business, there was a lack of a place for the old egos to reside where they could squash young kids and end promising careers, and so TNA was created so that the poor Kevin Nashs and Jeff Jaretts of the world knew there was a place where they could still go over.

 

TNA: Because You Never Really Needed To Step Aside For A New Generation, Anyway!

 

If ROH had that location and timeslot, they could probably put on a better show and not lose hideous sums of money.

[Guest MikeSC]

ROH wouldn't do better as they do market themselves to a hardcore wrestling crowd and that won't lead to national success.

 

TNA is, for reasons lost on me, copying WCW's business plan --- ignoring that it was horrendously unprofitable for most of its existence and didn't really work all that often.

-=Mike

[UseTheSledgehammerUh 0]

RHR, Raven is in no way important to the business.

[what 0]

ROH wouldn't do better as they do market themselves to a hardcore wrestling crowd and that won't lead to national success

Yes, they would.

 

TNA will never be a national success either. ROH at least puts out an entertaining product.

[Slickster 0]

ROH at least puts out an entertaining product.

Right, but a lot of casual wrestling fans like 'entertainment' and gimmicks over 60min ***** matches.

[bob_barron 0]

And ROH isn't all 60 minute matches either.

 

It does have a lot of entertainment

[what 0]

ROH at least puts out an entertaining product.

Right, but a lot of casual wrestling fans like 'entertainment' and gimmicks over 60min ***** matches.

ROH has storylines and ***** matches.

 

And I don't buy that wrestling fans dislike like great wrestling matches one bit.

[Ravenbomb 0]

Besides the fact that ECW was on national TV, everything else about the TNN deal sucked.

didn't TNN cut to an ad for whatever show was on next during the finish to the main event one week?

[Jobber of the Week 0]

Right, but a lot of casual wrestling fans like 'entertainment' and gimmicks over 60min ***** matches.

I believe that, with some bigger funds (not TNA current funds, but like TNA pre-Panda funds where they were just scraping it together to have music and some small pyro) and the current gig TNA has now, ROH could be a lot more successful than what TNA's getting.

 

The casual wrestling fans come for the spotmonkey matches. Over time they learn to appreciate the 60 minute classics. In this way you avoid going head to head with WWE because they half-ass both the smaller guys and the more grueling marathon matches.

[Jacques 0]

I see ROH more as a home of TNA rejects (Strong, Punk), wrestlers who won't sign TNA contracts because of Japan (Low Ki) and Indy scum(Everyone else).

[Twisted Intestine 0]

RHR, Raven is in no way important to the business.