Averagest wrestlers of all time?

[evilhomer 0]

My vote goes for Kane. Slightly above average because of his constant blips in the main event scene, but for the most part he toils in the mid-card. Never insanely over, rarely completely unover. Average skills for a man his size. Decent mic skills for his character but lousy overall. Plus he's been doing this for almost 10 years now. It's pretty hard to be a top average for that long without either breaking out or falling completely.

[Guest Loss]

Sting

Rick Rude

Scott Hall

Irwin R. Schyster

Kendall Windham

Mike Enos

Michael Hayes

Randy Orton

Jeff Jarrett

B. Brian Blair

Jim Brunzell

Perry Saturn

Test

[Special K 0]

I would say Sting is above average, though I'm not a fan. Big time over, bad mic skills and good charisma cancel each othe out, pretty good in-ring if one looks at his career as a whole.

 

Maybe Luger? Somewhat over, good look, garbage on mic, below-average leaning to bad in-ring for career, but was a world champ.

 

Honky-Tonk? OK on mic, great heat, pretty bad in-ring, moderate success.

 

Bubba-Ray or D-Von? Pretty good on mic, Ok in ring, with some in-ring charisma, pretty good success, but only as tag members.

[Guest Rrrsh]

My pick is Bulldog.

 

Jarrett is a good one tho.

 

 

Guys like Billy Gunn, Hardcore Holly and Koko B Ware sucked. Average isnt suck.

 

Orton bumping and in-ring charisma make him way above average, Ditto with Cena as it goes for his Selling.

Whoa-whoa-whoa. You did not just say The British Bulldog. He was a pretty good wrestler last I remember - may be he just needed someone to work off with, but he was still a good wrestler.

 

Example: vs. Bret Hart

Example: vs. Owen Hart

Bulldog had GREAT matches with great wrestlers and shit matches with shit wrestlers. I think thats the premise, he wrestles to his oppenent all the time. Thats pretty much average in my books.

[Guest Rrrsh]

Koko B. Ware didn't suck. He was one of the most over Jobbers I have ever seen in the WWF.

I never said he wasnt over. But his in-ring work sucked dude. Plus, if ur a jobber in the WWE, u can't be average. Or else, they would push you. So...

[Guest Rrrsh]

Sting

Rick Rude

Scott Hall

Irwin R. Schyster

Kendall Windham

Mike Enos

Michael Hayes

Randy Orton

Jeff Jarrett

B. Brian Blair

Jim Brunzell

Perry Saturn

Test

Sting Rude and Orton are above Average man.

 

 

The rest sound about right.

[Guest Prof_Plague]

Sting

Rick Rude

Scott Hall

Irwin R. Schyster

Kendall Windham

Mike Enos

Michael Hayes

Randy Orton

Jeff Jarrett

B. Brian Blair

Jim Brunzell

Perry Saturn

Test

Perry Saturn was a good wrestler though.

[Internet Warfare 0]

i'm pretty shocked no one has mentioned Steve Blackman yet...

[tekcop 0]

Triple H has always seemed as an extremely average wrestler that got a huge push and became over.

[Guest Loss]

Sting was completely average. I can't think of many bad matches he ever had that weren't across the ring from Vader, Foley or Flair, nor can I think of many great ones. He was pushed hard, but he was an average worker who could be great at times. Nothing wrong with that.

 

Ditto for Rude.

[Jingus 0]

Except Rude was willing to absolutely murder himself (almost literally) with sick bumps at times, he'd just fling himself backwards with no regard whatsoever as to where he landed or how much it might hurt.

 

Absolutely average? One word: Maven.

[Some Guy 0]

Sting

Rick Rude

Scott Hall

Irwin R. Schyster

Kendall Windham

Mike Enos

Michael Hayes

Randy Orton

Jeff Jarrett

B. Brian Blair

Jim Brunzell

Perry Saturn

Test

Sting, Orton, Rude, and Hall were/are all above average in ring work and the latter two in mic skills.

 

Mike Enos and Test actively sucked and were far below average. Same goes for Billy Gunn who was mentioned earlier.

 

The rest I agree with.

[Guest Loss]

Except Rude was willing to absolutely murder himself (almost literally) with sick bumps at times, he'd just fling himself backwards with no regard whatsoever as to where he landed or how much it might hurt.

 

Absolutely average? One word: Maven.

I'm a huge Rude fan, and he was great at times, especially in cage matches, but I'd say most of his matches were not bad or not good. Would you agree with that assessment?

 

I'd say Maven is a below average worker, considering that he can't even work a match.

[Guest Loss]

Sting, Orton, Rude, and Hall were/are all above average in ring work and the latter two in mic skills.

Sting had bad matches with bad workers and good matches with good workers. That's the very definition of average. He wasn't going to bring the quality up or down -- he was just going to keep up as needed.

 

Orton has yet to do anything beyond an average performance, with the Foley match at Backlash being a possible exception.

 

Scott Hall made his career when Shawn Michaels decided to wrestle a ladder for 15 minutes while Hall laid around. He has had exactly two great singles matches in his entire career, and they were both ladder matches with Shawn.

 

I've already covered Rude.

 

Mike Enos and Test actively sucked and were far below average.

 

Test was a better worker than Orton, actually. Test's 2001 work, especially his match with Edge at Survivor Series, trumps Orton's efforts for most of the year in 2004.

 

Enos didn't actively suck. He was just never pushed. Watch his match against Benoit at Souled Out '99 to see what I mean.

 

Same goes for Billy Gunn who was mentioned earlier.

 

Billy Gunn is definitely below average.

[MARTYEWR 0]

Sting

Rick Rude

Scott Hall

Irwin R. Schyster

Kendall Windham

Mike Enos

Michael Hayes

Randy Orton

Jeff Jarrett

B. Brian Blair

Jim Brunzell

Perry Saturn

Test

I'd add Christian to your list. I can't think of many great matches he's had, aside from the TLC ones, and those are definitely debatable. At the same time, I can't think of anything actively bad from him either, unless there's an awful comedy match he had in the past that I'm forgetting. He's somewhere down the middle.

[Some Guy 0]

Sting, Orton, Rude, and Hall were/are all above average in ring work and the latter two in mic skills.

Sting had bad matches with bad workers and good matches with good workers. That's the very definition of average. He wasn't going to bring the quality up or down -- he was just going to keep up as needed.

Sting had *great* matches with good workers like Rude, Foley, and Vader. He more than held up his end of the work in those matches. Average workers don't have a bunch of 4 star matches on their resume'.

 

Orton has yet to do anything beyond an average performance, with the Foley match at Backlash being a possible exception.

 

Well, he had a great match against Benoit as well. I know he was being carried in both that and the Foley match but he's also very young and improving. Now if he'd just stop doing HHH-lite promos and trying to be Rock he'd be on to much bigger and better things. Keep in mind HHH,who the board creamed their pants over in 2000 was a bad worker, below average until about 98 and then he was just an average worker with a great gimmick and passable mic skills and by that point he's been in WWF for 3 years which followed a year or 2 in WCW, Orton has been wrestling for what? 3 years total? He's further along than most guys are at that point in their careers. He's slightly above average now and probably will be pretty damn good within a year or two.

 

Scott Hall made his career when Shawn Michaels decided to wrestle a ladder for 15 minutes while Hall laid around. He has had exactly two great singles matches in his entire career, and they were both ladder matches with Shawn.

 

OK, I'll cede Hall. I'm just a mark for his mic skills. Hey Yo!

 

I've already covered Rude.

 

He is one of three guys (Savage and Hogan being the others) who could get 3 stars out of Warrior. He was above average and the hottest heel in business by far in '92.

 

Mike Enos and Test actively sucked and were far below average.

 

Test was a better worker than Orton, actually. Test's 2001 work, especially his match with Edge at Survivor Series, trumps Orton's efforts for most of the year in 2004.

 

Test has had one match that I'd even call entertainind that was because Shane went out and killed himself for it. He had a decent match against Edge, ok. Albert had a decent match against Kane as well, are either of them above average?

 

Enos didn't actively suck. He was just never pushed. Watch his match against Benoit at Souled Out '99 to see what I mean.

 

OK, he had a 3 star match against a world class worker, where Benoit basically squashed him and carried the whole load. Enos was a punch and kick guy. And he did get a bit of a push in WWF as a Bevetly Brother and he sucked then too. Brad Armstrong never got pushed and he was a very good worker. Being pushed and being a good worker is not mutually exclusive.

 

 

Booker T is an average worker at this point he was pretty good in 97 and 98 though.

John Cena is below average, I've yet to see tha guy get anything at all of out anybosy other Angle or Benoit and even then it wasn't much.

[Guest Loss]

Sting had *great* matches with good workers like Rude, Foley, and Vader. He more than held up his end of the work in those matches. Average workers don't have a bunch of 4 star matches on their resume'.

I have never seen a great Sting/Rude match, and I've seen about 15 of their house show matches from '92 and all their PPV and televised matches. The best match they ever had was at the 11/92 Clash, and it was still sort of a drag. Sting did have really strong matches with Foley, Vader and Flair, but they all have track records of being able to deliver. Sting is not going to carry a slug to a great match. He's never shown that he can. He's going to do well when working with top talent and do poorly with poor talent. That's average. He had above-average charisma and was one of the biggest stars of his era. As far as his in-ring ability, he was directly influenced by his opponent.

 

Well, he had a great match against Benoit as well.  I know he was being carried in both that and the Foley match but he's also very young and improving.  Now if he'd just stop doing HHH-lite promos and trying to be Rock he'd be on to much bigger and better things.  Keep in mind HHH,who the board creamed their pants over in 2000 was a bad worker, below average until about 98 and then he was just an average worker with a great gimmick and passable mic skills and by that point he's been in WWF for 3 years which followed a year or 2 in WCW, Orton has been wrestling for what?  3 years total?  He's further along than most guys are at that point in their careers.  He's slightly above average now and probably will be pretty damn good within a year or two.

 

I can think of many workers who were better three years into their careers than Orton is. Michaels was. Misterio was. Owen was. Benoit was. Savage was. Steamboat was. Angle was. Eaton was. Vader was. Akiyama was. Morton was. Both Hardyz were. I can't speak for Flair, Bret or Jumbo, as I haven't seen much footage of them at that stage of their careers, but I would imagine the same applies there. I agree that for not having the ability to learn anything outside of the WWE style, ever, and only rarely getting the opportunity to work long, Orton is decent.

 

He is one of three guys (Savage and Hogan being the others) who could get 3 stars out of Warrior.  He was above average and the hottest heel in business by far in '92.

 

Rude is an all time favorite of mine. He was occasionally great, specifically in '92, the year you pointed to where he was a hot attraction. His matches with Steamboat and Chono that year were probably near-MOTYC level affairs. But when I look at 1984, and 1985, and 1986, and 1987, and 1988, and 1989, and 1990, and 1991 before that and 1993 and 1994 afterward, nothing really stands out at all. Rude is another with above-average charisma that deserved to be given the chance to carry the load as top heel in both the WWF and WCW.

 

Test has had one match that I'd even call entertainind that was because Shane went out and killed himself for it.  He had a decent match against Edge, ok.  Albert had a decent match against Kane as well, are either of them above average?

 

No. Neither is Orton. Orton is no better than they are.

 

OK, he had a 3 star match against a world class worker, where Benoit basically squashed him and carried the whole load.  Enos was a punch and kick guy.  And he did get a bit of a push in WWF as a Bevetly Brother and he sucked then too.

 

There was nothing horrid about any of his work though. It was all passable and forgettable. That's what I'd call average.

 

Brad Armstrong never got pushed and he was a very good worker.

 

Agreed. Definitely above-average.

 

Insert Mike Sanders joke here.

 

Being pushed and being a good worker is not mutually exclusive.

 

Precisely my case for Rude and Sting.

 

Booker T is an average worker at this point he was pretty good in 97 and 98 though.

 

He also had flashes of greatness in 2002 and shortly after coming back in 2003. Booker T v Mark Henry from the RAW after SurSer '03 is the one of the best Short TV Matches No One Remembers Happening I can ever recall. Booker/Goldust v Jericho/Christian from the last RAW in '02 was one of the best tag matches of the year. Booker v HHH at WM XIX was the best HHH match in months when it happened, even though it wasn't all that spectacular. I do agree that his peak was '97 and '98. WCW tended to put less limitations on the workers.

 

John Cena is below average, I've yet to see tha guy get anything at all of out anybosy other Angle or Benoit and even then it wasn't much.

 

Agreed. I think he's going to sink as champion for this reason.

[Jingus 0]

I think some people here need to go out and see some really shitty indy shows, just to put things in perspective. Guys like Cena, Kane, or hell even Albert aren't what I'd call "below average". There are SO many shitty workers out there that make even the Kenzo Suzukis of the world look like Lou Thesz by comparison. It's rare that the WWE signs someone who is really THAT bad, when there are hundreds of weekend-warrior "wrestlers" who literally can't even lock up correctly.

 

Oh, and Dibiase was another guy who could get something out of Warrior.

[Guest Loss]

But Jingus, as someone in the business, we're not qualified to judge the workers, but rather the finished product, right? So, if guys have average matches on a regular basis, that makes them average wrestlers according to that logic.

[Some Guy 0]

I sort of figured we were talking average for WWF or WCW, not including Indies or even ECW, which had an alwaful fucking lot of average ot alwful workers.

 

And Loss, I give up. But I still disagree with you on Sting and Rude, Rude especially.

 

More guys I'd consider average:

 

Savio Vega

Ron Simmons

Dustin Rhodes (who had flashes of above averagness)

Road Dogg

Ron Killings

DDP

[Jingus 0]

Point taken, this should probably stay just a discussion about "average" in terms of bigger companies like WWF, WCW, ECW, TNA, etc.

 

I don't know if I'd agree with DDP, based solely on the fucking miracle he dragged out of Goldberg at Halloween Havoc 98.

[Some Guy 0]

Sure Page had a few good matches and carried Goldberg, but he also scripted the match out move for move before hand and then just went through the motions of it. I don't think that makes him a good worker, more like a good writer. If the crowd had started to shit on his script he would have been lost in there with Greenberg.

 

I've yet to hear a single one of Page's co-workers compliment his ring work and some have ripped it apart. They usually talk about how hard he worked and that type of shit.