Guest jm29195 Report post Posted January 14, 2005 I know there's always been topics about so and so's best matches so I thought I'd try to be a little different and ask for people's opinions on good workers and their worst matches, guys like Benoit, Eddie, Angle and so on..... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Black Lushus 0 Report post Posted January 14, 2005 I'd think Bret Hart has to lead the pack in this category...when he was at his peak, he sure was saddled with some lousy people to work with...he sure did try his damndest to make it work though, didn't he? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest jm29195 Report post Posted January 14, 2005 That would explain his Royal Rumble 95 and 96 borefests with Nash and Taker, but he must have adapted at some point because his Survivor Series 95 and Summerslam 97/One Night Only matches are tons better......either that or he was half-assing it the first time? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Black Lushus 0 Report post Posted January 14, 2005 dude I totally agree, his UT matches both in 96 and 97 really bored me to tears...his Nash matches were somewhat decent, since that was when Nash actually TRIED...but matches against Glen Jacobs and Razor Ramon, for example, were horrid...a really underrated match that a lot of people tend to forget was HBK vs. Bret waaaaaaaay back at S. Series 92.... oh yeah, it didn't help that half of his main event years in the WWE were spent being wasted with Jerry Lawler... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest jm29195 Report post Posted January 14, 2005 Yeah that match was grand as was the Bret/Shawn ladder match from 92 and the Flair/HBK vs Macho/Bret from around Survivor Series 92.... Anyways back to the main topic, the worst matches from decent workers, has anyone seen the Foley vs Gunn from UK No Mercy 99, given that it was supposed to be a hardcore brawl and Foley's tendency to get really good matches out of normally limited workers in these environments, I was expecting something at least decent but instead got the worst Foley match I've ever seen which dragged on for way to long and was just dull, most unlike Foley!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Loss Report post Posted January 14, 2005 I actually think the Bret/Nash trilogy (06/94, 01/95, 11/95) was extremely well done and I enjoyed every match. The first match was the worst of the series, but it was great in establishing a base for the feud. It was the only match of the series that saw Bret as the defending champ against Diesel (unless you count the 02/96 cage match where Taker came out from under the ring, and I don't). It was one of the key matches in getting Nash over in '94 as the rebel badass, making him seem good enough to compete on that level. I would have preferred a clean finish here, but in hindsight, it's best that neither got a pinfall victory. It gave more zing to their SurSer match the following year and it gave Nash a rep as a good big man worker because of Bret's smoke-and-mirrors act. That's actually an interesting story in itself, as in '94, most considered Nash a good hand in the ring. We see how ridiculous that was in retrospect. The second match saw Bret play a total dickhead heel and wrestle very aggressively, which was good, since Diesel was the new champ and didn't need to be across the ring from a babyface more virtuous than him that may steal his heat. There were some great tease spots here, especially Bret purposely overselling his knee to lure Nash into a false sense of security, only to come close to getting a quick three-count. Bret was the babyface, but played a better heel than Shawn Michaels would at Wrestlemania, as Shawn used the biggest show of the year to get himself over and make Nash look like shit in the name of turning himself babyface. Again, no finish, and again, nothing was settled. This was the right decision, as Bret/Diesel probably had more steam as a feud, and a clean pinfall would have killed it. The third match was the best of them all and was the culmination of their feud, as well as Bret taking an entire year's worth of frustration out on Diesel, as he had been left out of the title picture all year settling petty grudges and going through needless distractions. The story of Nash losing his aggressive streak was told brilliantly here -- he had a harder time overcoming being tied to the ringpost than he did in January and his compassion was his downfall, as he brutalized Bret so much that he hesitated, leaving himself open for a quick pinfall. He fell for the same trick twice, which gave him a logical reason to snap after the match and turn heel. Losing to Bret did far more to get Nash over than defeating Shawn at WM did. *** As for bad matches with people known as good workers, I'll have to think about it a little bit. I could point to almost all of the Shawn Michaels/Bret Hart matches from Coliseum Video in 1992, with the 07/92 ladder match being the sole exception. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RavishingRickRudo 0 Report post Posted January 14, 2005 The Benoit/Eddie matches over the past 2 years have been poor. Esp. the Vengeance match. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Failed Mascot Report post Posted January 14, 2005 The worst match involving good workers I can think of was Jake Roberts vs. Rick Martell in a blindfold match. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JoeDirt 0 Report post Posted January 14, 2005 How about Austin's borefest at Backlash with Undertaker? That has to be one of Austin's worst. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Just John 0 Report post Posted January 14, 2005 The Benoit/Eddie matches over the past 2 years have been poor. Esp. the Vengeance match. Totally agree. For two of the top 10 North American workers ever, they just don't have great chemistry. I think their match in Iraq was their worst together. I liked the Nitro match on the Benoit DVD, but it wasn't **** or anything. I also recall Dean Malenko and Psychosis having a really boring match at WW3 96. Both men had several good-great matches in that time period, but they were off in that one. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Angle-plex 0 Report post Posted January 14, 2005 Austin vs Jericho - No Way Out 2002 Triple H vs Kurt Angle - No Way Out 2002 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Just John 0 Report post Posted January 15, 2005 Austin and Jericho is another example of two good wrestlers not having chemistry. None of their matches are very good. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Ray Report post Posted January 15, 2005 "For two of the top 10 North American workers ever, they just don't have great chemistry. " Are you serious? Their 6/11/96 match is one of the best junior heavyweight matches ever. And they've had a ton of other good matches in New-Japan and WCW. "I liked the Nitro match on the Benoit DVD, but it wasn't **** or anything." It's one of the best eight minute matches I've ever seen. If it's possible to get to **** in eight minutes they certainly did it in October '95. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest LooneyTune Report post Posted January 15, 2005 Someone wants a bad Bret Hart match? Watch King of the Ring 1995 vs. Jerry Lawler. Hell, watch ANY of his matches from January-March 1996. I can't think of a single good TV or PPV match form that time that was any good. Vs. Undertaker... TWICE... vs. Goldust... vs. Hunter Hearst Helmsley (pre-having any talent)... vs. Diesel... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Some Guy 0 Report post Posted January 16, 2005 Ausin vs. Booker T: Late 2001 Ausitn vs. Hennig: Feb 2002 Austin vs. Jericho: NWO 2002 Austin vs. Hall: WM 18 Austin didn't try at all during this period. He absolutely dogged it in all three of these matches. The Booker and Hennig matches should have been 3-4 stars but sucked and he obviously didn't want to work with Hall and he pretty much single handedly killed Hall and Nash's heat by kicking the shit out of both of them at once, not to mention the stupid taping Hall to a chair and torturing him angle that led up to the match. HBK vs HHH: HiaC Bad Blood 2004 I hated this match. Neither Shawn nor Hunter bump enough now to match a HiaC match entertaining. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Ray Report post Posted January 16, 2005 "Austin didn't try at all during this period. " He had a very good match with Booker T in January 2002 and he was highly motivated in it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest LooneyTune Report post Posted January 16, 2005 Strange, but true... Scott Hall in 2002: WAAAAAAAAAAAY past his prime. Curt Hennig in 2002: Also WAAAAAAAAAAAY past his prime. Booker T Ever: Never that good to begin with. The only match I would say could've been good was vs. Jericho, but that was ruined because of poor buildup and a horrible finish that over-shadowed Jerichos... again. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kahran Ramsus 0 Report post Posted January 16, 2005 Shawn Michaels & Bret Hart had plenty of bad matches in the mid 90s, including some against each other. Both were lazy as shit when it wasn't a big match situation. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Ray Report post Posted January 16, 2005 Shawn Michaels & Bret Hart had plenty of bad matches in the mid 90s, including some against each other. Both were lazy as shit when it wasn't a big match situation. I've seen Bret put on a ****+ match at a house show. I've seen many, many good-great Bret matches which weren't "big match situations." Same for Shawn, to a lesser extent. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jingus 0 Report post Posted January 16, 2005 Chemistry is a strange thing, as sometimes two crappy workers can have a shockingly good match (Goldberg vs. DDP immedietely comes to mind), and sometimes two good ones can't have a decent match together to save their lives (HHH and Kurt Angle just never clicked together). Why does RVD have better matches with the Undertaker and Randy Orton than he did with Willian Regal or Steve Austin? How the hell did Rikishi vs. Val Venis actually entertain me, while HBK vs. Jericho was so generic and boring? Wrestling is just a weird little artform sometimes. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Some Guy 0 Report post Posted January 16, 2005 Strange, but true... Scott Hall in 2002: WAAAAAAAAAAAY past his prime. Curt Hennig in 2002: Also WAAAAAAAAAAAY past his prime. Booker T Ever: Never that good to begin with. The only match I would say could've been good was vs. Jericho, but that was ruined because of poor buildup and a horrible finish that over-shadowed Jerichos... again. Sure Hall and Hennig were past there prime, but both were still decent enough that Austin should have gotten a decent match out of them. Hennig still bumped all over the place and Hall was willing to cooperate (if he wasn't he certainly would have said "You know Steve, don't you think you beating both Kev and I within an inch of our lifes on the biggest show of the year might not be the best thing for our careers?" Austin was just wasn't putting forth any effort at this time. Even his promos were lazy. Doing the Beverly Hillbillies theme song so the fans could yell "What?" after every line is not really putting forth an effort. WHile it was funny it was just a waste of time. I fail to see haw that would lead to a money match, unless he was going toe to toe with Jed Clampet at WM. Austin vs Jericho sucked. Austin was pouting during this period. All he did in the Jericho match was throw a bunch of chops and yell "What?" a lot. I lost a lot of respect for Austin in 2002, starting with his non-effort and then the walkout and wife beating stuff. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanadianChick 0 Report post Posted January 16, 2005 Why does RVD have better matches with the Undertaker and Randy Orton than he did with Willian Regal or Steve Austin? I agree with your point, but quick question: When did Rob have a significant match against Austin? I just remember a Raw/Smackdown nothing match and that three way dance. Am I forgetting something? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Just John 0 Report post Posted January 16, 2005 Are you serious? Their 6/11/96 match is one of the best junior heavyweight matches ever. And they've had a ton of other good matches in New-Japan and WCW. It's one of the best eight minute matches I've ever seen. If it's possible to get to **** in eight minutes they certainly did it in October '95. I've never seen the match you're talking about. Was it in Japan? I'm not surprised they could have a great match together, I've just always thought their matches were never quite as good as they should be. And I still don't agree that the Nitro match was ****, but that's all subjective. It was great for the limited time, but not ****. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jingus 0 Report post Posted January 16, 2005 I agree with your point, but quick question: When did Rob have a significant match against Austin? I just remember a Raw/Smackdown nothing match and that three way dance. Am I forgetting something? No, that's about it, though I could swear RVD and Austin had more than just one match together on TV, that might just be my memory playing tricks on me though. RVD/HHH has never been worth a damn either, come to think of it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest LooneyTune Report post Posted January 16, 2005 Well... RVD/HHH is a train wreck combination waiting to happen, so it shouldn't have been expected to be good. RVD = Very spotty. HHH = Tries to wrestle like it's 1976. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanadianChick 0 Report post Posted January 16, 2005 Yeah, when the highlight of their big PPV match is Rob spitting water, there may be some problems. I do remember a Raw match (right after Kane unmasked, I believe) that was booked very well though. I don't remember match quality, but I do remember the match being much better than their Unforgiven '02 match. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dark Age 0 Report post Posted January 16, 2005 Booker T Ever: Never that good to begin with. No! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest LooneyTune Report post Posted January 16, 2005 Booker T Ever: Never that good to begin with. No! Well he isn't BAD, but he really is one of the more over-rated wrestlers on the WWE roster. His move set is very limited, relies a lot on chinlocks, he has a very weakly executed finisher (the set up for the axe kick is just blech), and the only thing he does that stands out is the spin-a-rooni, which is only awesome when it's a cocky heel Booker T doing it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jingus 0 Report post Posted January 16, 2005 Booker used to be pretty damn good; see any of his Best of 7 matches with Benoit to see what I mean. However, he's not as young as he used to be, and being forced to work "WWE Style" doesn't help at all. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dark Age 0 Report post Posted January 16, 2005 No, you're thinking of unmotivated, under-used, "they won't push me so why should I try?", back's a mess, just doesn't care any more Booker T. And even HE is better than a good majority of guys, and HE is still a little under-rated in some parts. If you think Booker is nothing special, watch 1998, "God, I'm so awesome, watch me have a good match with anyone. And no, I wasn't carried by Benoit" Booker T. He ruled. Heck, watch 99-01 "Damn, I still kick so much ass it's not even funny, even if I'm a bit below my 98 best" Booker T. HELL, even watch WWEized Booker T up until WrestleMania 19 before you know what happened. You can even watch Booker T's single matches in 96-98, they're good too. In closing, don't use the current version of Booker T to determine if he's good or not. Watch some of his older stuff. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
