Alan Keyes Daughter

[Guest Cerebus]

That's dumb. I think Keyes is a total moron for more reasons than one, but this doesn't make someone a hypocrite. Your actions are independent of your kids' actions especailly when they leave the nest. The son (or in this case daughter) are not responsible for their parents' sins and vice versa.

[Spicy McHaggis 0]

I wonder if he feels his own daughter is a sinner, and if so, that would be sad indeed.

I would venture to say yes.

 

We're all sinners. That's kind of a given.

Sin is a concept within a religious structure which I do not believe in.

 

 

Just saying.

Then you shouldn't have an opinion on that concept.

I don't believe in communism.

 

Am I not allowed to criticize, using an *opinion* of some of their ideals?

Your example isn't analogous to my criticism.

 

The analogy really should be:

 

"I don't believe systems of government exist. Am I not allowed to criticize communism?"

 

Obviously....no, you're not allowed.

[Vyce 0]

That's dumb. I think Keyes is a total moron for more reasons than one, but this doesn't make someone a hypocrite. Your actions are independent of your kids' actions especailly when they leave the nest. The son (or in this case daughter) are not responsible for their parents' sins and vice versa.

No, he's a hypocrite because he puts himself out to Joe Christian, and yet is completely intolerant of the homosexual lifestyle - even to the point of effectively estranging his own daughter. Christ, of course, preached that all of his followers should be tolerant and accepting of others, even if their behavior is a sin unto God; but I guess Alan missed that day of Sunday school.

[SuperJerk 0]

Your example isn't analogous to my criticism.

 

The analogy really should be:

 

"I don't believe systems of government exist. Am I not allowed to criticize communism?"

 

Obviously....no, you're not allowed.

 

Your analogy is flawed.

 

I never said religions don't exist.

[Vyce 0]

Ah, someone finally used the "I'm more intellectual / sane than you because *I* don't believe in imaginary people who live in the clouds" approach.

 

It's nice to know that we conservatives don't have the market cornered on closed-minded intolerance.

[Spicy McHaggis 0]

Your example isn't analogous to my criticism.

 

The analogy really should be:

 

"I don't believe systems of government exist. Am I not allowed to criticize communism?"

 

Obviously....no, you're not allowed.

 

Your analogy is flawed.

 

I never said religions don't exist.

You said sin doesn't.

[SuperJerk 0]

You said sin doesn't.

What I *said* was:

 

Sin is a concept within a religious structure which I do not believe in.

 

Please learn how to read.

[Spicy McHaggis 0]

Please learn how to write.

 

If a concept is within a structure you don't believe in, that concept cannot possibly exist for you.

[SuperJerk 0]

If a concept is within a structure you don't believe in, that concept cannot possibly exist for you.

Now you're just putting words in my mouth.

 

Here's my analogy broken down SAT style for your ass.

 

sin : religion :: communist ideas : communism

 

 

If I'm allowed to communist ideals despite not being a communist, shouldn't I be able to criticize religious ideals without believing in religion.

 

 

Now do you see my point?

[Jingus 0]

No, I don't see your point, cuz I think you missed a word there right before "communist ideals".

 

Can we please stop arguing over what is is?

[Guest MikeSC]

If a concept is within a structure you don't believe in, that concept cannot possibly exist for you.

Now you're just putting words in my mouth.

 

Here's my analogy broken down SAT style for your ass.

 

sin : religion :: communist ideas : communism

 

 

If I'm allowed to communist ideals despite not being a communist, shouldn't I be able to criticize religious ideals without believing in religion.

 

 

Now do you see my point?

Umm, I don't believe in Islam. Thus, I don't believe in the tenets of Islam. Thus, it'd be silly for me to criticize a Muslim for not living up to Islam's "ideals" since I don't take Islam any more seriously than I take Scientology.

-=Mike

[Jobber of the Week 0]

That's dumb. I think Keyes is a total moron for more reasons than one, but this doesn't make someone a hypocrite. Your actions are independent of your kids' actions especailly when they leave the nest. The son (or in this case daughter) are not responsible for their parents' sins and vice versa.

You do not call someone else's daughter a selfish hedonist and then pardon yourself when your daughter shares the same "sin."

 

Alan Keyes is Prime Douche. He's making me defend the Cheneys. THINK ABOUT THAT.

[SuperJerk 0]

I don't believe in Islam. Thus, I don't believe in the tenets of Islam. Thus, it'd be silly for me to criticize a Muslim for not living up to Islam's "ideals" since I don't take Islam any more seriously than I take Scientology.

 

I agree, Mike, but that's not why I posted the analogy.

 

The argument started because I said I didn't believe in the religious structure which sin was a part of after McHaggis stated "we're all sinners", and then he said I'm not allowed to have an opinion on the subject. His statement that I'm "not allowed" to have an opinion is the actual comment I was trying to prove was incorrect with the multiple analogies by showing other comparable things I probably would be allowed to criticize in his view.

 

Or, I could have just said "What are you, the thought police? Fuck off."

But I decided to go the mature route and defend my right to my view using logic. McHaggis was having none of it and tried to repeatedly nail me on semantic technicalities.

[Guest MikeSC]

^

 

Fair enough.

-=Mike

[Spicy McHaggis 0]

If a concept is within a structure you don't believe in, that concept cannot possibly exist for you.

Now you're just putting words in my mouth.

 

Here's my analogy broken down SAT style for your ass.

 

sin : religion :: communist ideas : communism

 

 

If I'm allowed to communist ideals despite not being a communist, shouldn't I be able to criticize religious ideals without believing in religion.

 

 

Now do you see my point?

We already went over this:

 

Your analogy is off a bit...it should say:

 

sin : religion :: communism : systems of government

 

If you don't believe in systems of government, you shouldn't bother having an opinion on communism. And lay off the thought police bs. The only reason I first commented was because you were policing Keyes' thoughts.

[SuperJerk 0]

We already went over this:

 

Your analogy is off a bit...it should say:

 

sin : religion :: communism : systems of government

 

If you don't believe in systems of government, you shouldn't bother having an opinion on communism.

 

You seemed to be confused about the nature of the word "believe".

 

You keep saying I don't believe religions exist, but I do believe they exist. Obviously they exist, because otherwise I wouldn't be able to pass by a church every day on my way to and from work.

 

I beelvie they exist, I just don't believe they're true (i.e. "believe in them").

 

See the difference?

 

And lay off the thought police bs. The only reason I first commented was because you were policing Keyes' thoughts.

 

*I* was policing Keyes's thoughts?

How was I doing this exactly?

 

Your apparent hatred of non-religious people has made you either irrational or hallucinatory.

 

In one sentence you tell me I'm not allowed to have an opinion something, then the next you tell me to lay off the "thought police" bs? Hypocritical much?

[Spicy McHaggis 0]

I beelvie they exist, I just don't believe they're true (i.e. "believe in them").

If you don't believe in systems of government, you shouldn't bother having an opinion on communism.

[Boon 0]

This is getting worse then Hunter and Shawn.

[Spicy McHaggis 0]

That was my last attempt.

[SuperJerk 0]

If you don't believe in systems of government, you shouldn't bother having an opinion on communism.

 

When you say "believe in" to mean believe they exist, then you have a point. If you say "believe in" to mean "have faith in" (such as in the case of religion) you don't. Usually when people say "believe in" with regards to religions, they mean they believe they exist, but have no faith in. Usage determines meaning.

 

You created this confusion when you posted:

 

Your example isn't analogous to my criticism.

 

The analogy really should be:

 

"I don't believe systems of government exist. Am I not allowed to criticize communism?"

 

Obviously....no, you're not allowed.

 

Obviously, you changed Your Paragon of Virtue's words around to fit your meaning. I'm sick of arguing semantics with you, though.

 

 

In the case of what we were REALLY talking about, religion, I'm just going to come out and say what I really think: I have the right to think whatever I want about the concept of sin, regardless of whether I think a religion is true or not.

 

Sin is a concept within a religious structure which I do not believe in.

 

If a concept is within a structure you don't believe in, that concept cannot possibly exist for you.

 

So? That's not a reason for me not to have an opinion on it.

Edited February 23, 2005 by RobotJerk