Senate to Vote on Minimum Wage

[Guest MikeSC]

Let's just put this in simple terms:

 

If someone can't live their life on working a 40-hour week with minimum wage, then the minimum wage just isn't high enough. I'm not suggesting they should live a life of luxury -- but if they can't pay their rent, pay for the food bill, electric bill, water bill, gas bill, and still have a few dollars of spending money -- then the wage just isn't simply enough.

And most people can.

 

They just ALSO want their cable TV, etc.

If someone puts in a 40-hour typical work week effort for a job, regardless of whether or not YOU think the job is respectable, they need to have the funds to live on their own.

 

Clearly, many of these people do not. Thus, the minimum wage needs to be raised.

No, they can if they choose to do so.

 

They don't want the sacrifices necessary to do it.

-=Mike

[EricMM 0]

Mike you fail to grasp that almost anyone can be a teacher, but it takes a very able person to be a GOOD teacher.

 

When you pay teachers a shitty wage, you're going to get shitty teachers. I have had good teachers and bad teachers in my day, as I'm sure all of us have had. The good teachers helped me better myself, the bad teachers were difficulties to be avoided if at all possible.

 

Everyone knows that public schooling in this country should be better so that a majority of America's next generation(s) will be as fully skilled as possible. Sub-par teachers just WILL NOT provide that. And for the record it takes a LOT of skill and especially quality to be a good teacher. Not all smart people can do it. People with good empathy and communication skills make good teachers, but if they'd make far more money working for something else, or if they simply wouldn't make enough working as a teacher, they won't teach.

 

You can say that public schools are where bad teachers go, but it shouldn't be that way. If private schools offer teachers more, then public schools should match it. It does a great disservice to the majority of kids who cannot go to a private school.

[EricMM 0]

Excuse me Mike, forty hours times minimum wage is something like $960 a month. If say, you live around here where I live, that just won't pay the bills.

 

I'd be surprised to find housing that cheap, let alone housing plus food and god knows what else. Let alone, if you have even one child. Let alone if you want to even try to have a car, to get to work.

 

Around here, at least, it doesn't work.

[NYU 0]

Don't forget to take out taxes.

 

Working minimum wage won't be enough to even pay for rent in New York City. Forget actually having anything else.

 

How could it even be argued that the minimum wage is just fine where it is?

[Guest MikeSC]

Don't forget to take out taxes.

 

Working minimum wage won't be enough to even pay for rent in New York City. Forget actually having anything else.

 

How could it even be argued that the minimum wage is just fine where it is?

You want to be able to afford to live in NYC?

 

Then stop voting in people who hike up your taxes incessantly.

 

Minimum wage works just fine here.

-=Mike

[EricMM 0]

And it doesn't in New York city, Mike.

 

And if there is a country wide minimum wage, then it has to work across the country. Even in places where there is such a glut of money that condos cost two thousand a month.

 

There has to be SOMEPLACE. Not all poor people can live in section 8 housing.

 

And NO they can't just move.

[Murmuring Beast 0]

Luxuries in life?

 

Listen to Mike: only rich people deserve cable.

[Guest MikeSC]

And it doesn't in New York city, Mike.

Then let New York raise its own minimum wage. They have every right to determine a minimum wage for their state. If the whole country doesn't have NY's problem, then let NY deal with their own problem.

And if there is a country wide minimum wage, then it has to work across the country.  Even in places where there is such a glut of money that condos cost two thousand a month.

Why does it "have" to? Cost of living varies across the country.

There has to be SOMEPLACE.  Not all poor people can live in section 8 housing.

 

And NO they can't just move.

Then that is what is referred to as tough shit. They CAN move if they so wish to do so.

Listen to Mike: only rich people deserve cable.

Pretty much. If a poor person can barely afford to eat, they'll have to do without some of the small luxuries.

-=Mike

[Murmuring Beast 0]

I love Mike's values and would like to subcribe to his newsletter.

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

Luxuries in life?

 

Listen to Mike: only rich people deserve cable.

No, but just because you can't afford it doesn't mean we should subsidize it. Hell, we're starting to do that with high-speed Internet access, and I shudder to think what will happen when we all have to get HD TVs in the future...

[Damaramu 0]

Excuse me Mike, forty hours times minimum wage is something like $960 a month. If say, you live around here where I live, that just won't pay the bills.

 

I'd be surprised to find housing that cheap, let alone housing plus food and god knows what else. Let alone, if you have even one child. Let alone if you want to even try to have a car, to get to work.

 

Around here, at least, it doesn't work.

Hell I live in fucking Oklahoma where the cost of living is probably among the lowest in the country and you can't live on minimum wage here.

Then again I don't know a lot of jobs aside from jobs in the mall that teenagers in high school get that pay minimum wage.

I work in OU's library as a security job in probably the easiest job on campus and I get 6.50 an hour.

[Guest Loss]

And teaching in public schools isn't something that requires a great deal of talent.

???

 

You're mistaking effort for ability. Like it or not, ANYBODY can dig holes. Clearly, everybody can't do data processing --- or else they wouldn't be digging holes.

            -=Mike

 

... And the left are the ones who have the reputation of being snobs ...

[The Czech Republic 0]

Luxuries in life?

 

Listen to Mike: only rich people deserve cable.

Well cable costs money. I don't think only rich people deserve it but it is a luxury and nobody is entitled to 500some television channels.

[Guest Loss]

I actually don't support a minimum wage hike, if only because smaller business won't be able to afford to employ as many people, and the unemployment rate would go through the roof. Doing the raise in increments only provides a partial safeguard, but the end result is the same. It's ultimately the responsibility of the individual to make sure he can take care of himself. Luckily, we live in a society where two-income households and one person working multiple jobs is allowed. One can go as far as his ambition takes him. It's also the responsibility of the individual to learn a valuable trade or vocation at some point.

 

My biggest problem with the minimum wage hike is that it punishes employees with tenure. If a cashier at Wal-Mart is making $5.15 and another has been there for a few years and is making $7.50, they're eventually going to be making close to the same amount of money, which simply isn't fair. Raising the minimum wage is fantastic for entry-level positions and those without a special vocation or high school diploma, but what about people working in fields where no high school degree is required who have tenure that is ultimately meaningless? Some McDonalds *managers* don't even make $7.50.

 

So basically, this is an issue where I agree with Mike (that's been happening a lot lately), but I had to question his point of view on public school teachers.

[MarvinisaLunatic 0]

Well, the good news is that most jobs that pay minimum wage cant be outsourced to other countries.

 

Imagine all the people making in the $8-10 range,(err..like myself right now) which seems like pretty decent money (I pay rent, have directv, buy gas, rent movies, buy games..etc with no problem although I usually do so when I can do it cheaply/for free) who will end up only making $1 or $2 more than min. wage if these bills pass. Good for the people who are just starting or end up getting stuck in a min. wage paying job, but not so good for the people who've worked a couple years to get to that point...and I doubt this plan includes bumping everyones pay up in proportion to the minimum wage increase..

[The Czech Republic 0]

I'm not with Mike on the teaching thing. I actually spent a lot of time talking with my high school teachers and seeing what they did and it's not so easy.

[NYU 0]

I also just love the idea that Mike thinks anybody could dig holes.

 

Personally, I have a great interest in seeing Mike spend an entire day's worth digging holes, then see if he still has his opinion of it being rather easy work.

[Guest pinnacleofallthingsmanly]

Mike you live in a fucking bubble.

[Guest MikeSC]

And teaching in public schools isn't something that requires a great deal of talent.

???

 

Sorry, but it isn't. The talents necessary to teach are not terribly rare. ANYBODY can become a teacher if they wish. Teaching is a noble profession (usually), but the talents required to be a teacher are not terribly rare.

 

Again, you can strive as hard as you can and never come close to being a pro athlete. It's not nearly as difficult to become a teacher.

You're mistaking effort for ability. Like it or not, ANYBODY can dig holes. Clearly, everybody can't do data processing --- or else they wouldn't be digging holes.

            -=Mike

... And the left are the ones who have the reputation of being snobs ...

The left is the one trying to subsidize people with few marketable skills at the expense of people with marketable skills.

I'm not with Mike on the teaching thing. I actually spent a lot of time talking with my high school teachers and seeing what they did and it's not so easy.

Who said it was easy? It's not easy. Nor is picking fruit.

 

It IS a job with a skill set that is not terribly rare --- and, quite honestly, they DO get significant time off each year. I'd love to get 3 months or so off a year, personally. I don't get that perk.

I also just love the idea that Mike thinks anybody could dig holes.

 

Personally, I have a great interest in seeing Mike spend an entire day's worth digging holes, then see if he still has his opinion of it being rather easy work.

I used to clean restrooms at K-Mart. I've DONE literally shitty jobs.

 

ANYBODY can dig holes. Get a shovel and get to work. It requires no special skills.

 

As usual, you cant quite grasp that "JOBS THAT DON'T REQUIRE SPECIAL SKILLS" is not quite the same thing as "EASY WORK".

 

ANYBODY can do hard, manual labor. It's not a talent-intensive thing.

 

But you will never grasp that fact.

Mike you live in a fucking bubble.

The bubble of reality is a lonely one.

-=Mike

[Guest pinnacleofallthingsmanly]

You have seriously lost your mind.

[Guest MikeSC]

You have seriously lost your mind.

And you never had one.

 

Your point is?

-=Mike

[Secret Agent 0]

I have to agree with Mike here. Raising the minimum wage won't do a damn thing as companies will just pass the cost onto the consumer and that 2 dollar loaf of bread will now cost you 3 dollars. People that can't afford to live off of minimum wage now, still won't if they raised it.

 

Minimum wage was never intended to be a wage for working adults making their career out of it. How somebody stays at that low level is beyond me. Even if your working at McDonald's you can put some effort in and get promoted to a shift manager, assistant manager, and so forth. Hell, when minimum wage in Oklahoma was 5.15 I was making 9.50/hr at Carl's freaking Jr of all places.

 

All this will do is further decrease the value of an American dollar.

[NYU 0]

I used to clean restrooms at K-Mart. I've DONE literally shitty jobs.

 

ANYBODY can dig holes. Get a shovel and get to work. It requires no special skills.

 

As usual, you cant quite grasp that "JOBS THAT DON'T REQUIRE SPECIAL SKILLS" is not quite the same thing as "EASY WORK".

 

ANYBODY can do hard, manual labor. It's not a talent-intensive thing.

 

But you will never grasp that fact.

 

Shoving holes for 5 minutes is a job anybody could do.

 

Shoving holes for eight hours a day, five days a week -- that's a job that requires much strength, much endurance, and an impressive work ethic. One that, I'm sure, isn't present in a noticeable percentage of Americans.

 

Not ANYBODY can do hard manual labor, and the fact that you would even suggest so is just absurd. To imply that they can IS to imply that it is "easy work."

 

I said it once. I'll say it again. I highly doubt if you spent an entire day digging holes that you would sit here and say "ANYBODY" could do manual labor. Just because a certain job doesn't require skillful training beforehand doesn't mean anybody can do it.

 

You're really sounding quite ridiculous here.

 

If someone is living in New York City, and working a 40-hour week doesn't even grant them enough money for a one-bedroom apartment, then there is a major problem in the system. In a way, these people are hardly doing any better than the unemployed....yet they are still working a full day's shift.

[Secret Agent 0]

If someone is living in New York City, and working a 40-hour week doesn't even grant them enough money for a one-bedroom apartment, then there is a major problem in the system. In a way, these people are hardly doing any better than the unemployed....yet they are still working a full day's shift.

It doesn't matter where you live. Nobody should even think for a second that they are going to survive on a minimum wage job; it wasn't designed for that purpose.

 

Also, if they need more money they can do what I've done everytime I needed some extra money. Get a second job.

[Guest MikeSC]

I used to clean restrooms at K-Mart. I've DONE literally shitty jobs.

 

ANYBODY can dig holes. Get a shovel and get to work. It requires no special skills.

 

As usual, you cant quite grasp that "JOBS THAT DON'T REQUIRE SPECIAL SKILLS" is not quite the same thing as "EASY WORK".

 

ANYBODY can do hard, manual labor. It's not a talent-intensive thing.

 

But you will never grasp that fact.

 

Shoving holes for 5 minutes is a job anybody could do.

 

Shoving holes for eight hours a day, five days a week -- that's a job that requires much strength, much endurance, and an impressive work ethic. One that, I'm sure, isn't present in a noticeable percentage of Americans.

And ANYBODY can do it. This isn't medicine. If you give somebody a shovel, they will be able to do the job. Some better than others --- but there never seems to be a problem finding somebody to dig a ditch.

 

Not everyone could actually argue a case in court.

 

Is this really so hard to fathom? What part of this is losing you?

Not ANYBODY can do hard manual labor, and the fact that you would even suggest so is just absurd. To imply that they can IS to imply that it is "easy work."

ANYBODY can do it. The skills needed to do it are not rare. It doesn't make it easy work.

I said it once. I'll say it again. I highly doubt if you spent an entire day digging holes that you would sit here and say "ANYBODY" could do manual labor. Just because a certain job doesn't require skillful training beforehand doesn't mean anybody can do it.

You give somebody a shovel and they can dig a hole. You may want to wallow in the glory of hole-digging --- but it is a job that ANYBODY can do if they wish.

 

Picking fruit is physically grueling work. It doesn't make the work anything RESEMBLING skilled labor.

You're really sounding quite ridiculous here.

No, you're sounding like somebody who, I'm hoping, is intentionally missing a point.

If someone is living in New York City, and working a 40-hour week doesn't even grant them enough money for a one-bedroom apartment, then there is a major problem in the system. In a way, these people are hardly doing any better than the unemployed....yet they are still working a full day's shift.

Then let NEW YORK raise its OWN STATE'S minimum wage. Don't force the rest of the country to raise its cost of doing business to match NY's insane tax rates and property rates.

 

And at no point was minimum wage intended to be a CAREER. It was meant to be a FIRST STEP, a job where you can at least demonstrate enough competence to move up the ladder.

-=Mike

[NYU 0]

You don't PLAN on working a minimum wage job for the majority of your life. Sometimes you get forced into it. Life doesn't always go the way you want. The minimum wage jobs may be there as a last resort. Either way, you SHOULD be able to live off a minimum wage job if you need to. Not too comfortably, of course, but it is not unreasonable to expect that you might be able to pay your rent with an entire month's salary.

 

And if you find yourself being forced to suddenly raise a family, holding two jobs isn't necessarily a valid option.

 

EDIT: Mike, you are absolutely hopeless. For someone that thinks I'M trying to intentionally miss the point, you're looking pretty foolish yourself.

 

Let me repeat this for you ONE more time.

 

Perhaps ANYBODY could dig holes for five minutes.

 

NOT ANYBODY could dig holes for eight hours, five days a week.

 

Everytime you say they can, I find myself thinking more and more that you are simply ignorant of anyone not in your financial class.

Edited March 7, 2005 by NY Untouchable

[Guest MikeSC]

You don't PLAN on working a minimum wage job for the majority of your life. Not too comfortably, of course, but it is not unreasonable to expect that you might be able to pay your rent with an entire month's salary.

And if you actually SHOW up for work and do the menial job, YOU WON'T BE PAID MINIMUM WAGE FOR LONG.

 

If you're stuck working for minimum wage for years, it's because you don't show up to work or don't do your job worth a shit.

 

That's YOUR problem for throwing away your opportunity.

Sometimes you get forced into it. Life doesn't always go the way you want.

There is no situation, whatsoever, where somebody with even the tiniest level of competence will be forced to work for minimum wage for any length of time.

The minimum wage jobs may be there as a last resort. Either way, you SHOULD be able to live off a minimum wage job if you need to.

No, you shouldn't. Minimum wage is not MEANT to be a wage to live off of. It can be done in some places, but that is NOT its intention.

 

Just as Social Security was never intended to be peoples' pension plan.

And if you find yourself being forced to suddenly raise a family, holding two jobs isn't necessarily a valid option.

Then put the kids up for adoption. If you're so irresponsible with your life that this is an issue, do something to make it better.

-=Mike

[Secret Agent 0]

Look, you must be disgruntled because you have a low paying minimum wage job, NY Untouchable, but believe me when i say raising the minimum wage won't do anything. Soon prices will go up and you still won't be able to afford it, and then there will be another talk of raising the wage.

 

Also, don't give me that crap that you can't work a second job while raising a family. I have a friend that works 3 jobs to support his wife and 3 kids. There has been many times I've worked 70-80 hours a week between 2 jobs; it can be done.

[Guest MikeSC]

EDIT: Mike, you are absolutely hopeless. For someone that thinks I'M trying to intentionally miss the point, you're looking pretty foolish yourself.

 

Let me repeat this for you ONE more time.

 

Perhaps ANYBODY could dig holes for five minutes.

 

NOT ANYBODY could dig holes for eight hours, five days a week.

 

Everytime you say they can, I find myself thinking more and more that you are simply ignorant of anyone not in your financial class.

YES, they CAN dig holes for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week if they have to. It won't be easy, but they CAN do it. I've hauled around 50 pound bags on manure all day long in the summer in the past. I've cleaned bathrooms. I've done jobs that were brutally difficult --- but they were jobs that required absolutely no skill whatsoever and, thus, not worth more than minimum wage.

 

And seeing as how you don't even KNOW my financial class, you're doubly ignorant.

-=Mike

[NoCalMike 0]

Physical work may not take "talent" and "work skills" but to say it is a job "anyone can do" is beyond ignorant, as there are a lot of people that could not put that kind of wear and tear on their body for length of time.

 

If field workers decided on some mass walkout, big enough to actually harm the amount of produce in the stores, their boss may think suddenly the job is worth a little more. Sure in time they could all be replaced with similar skilled(or non skilled) workers, but the immediate effects would hurt grocery stores pretty hard.

 

A lot of wage rates have nothing to do with how much a job "is worth" anyway, it has to do with the company wanting to have a happy and enjoyable work staff on hand. I have done about five or six data entry/related-to jobs throughout the past year through temp agencies and the wages have fluxuated depending on the companies, and I can say for certain that the more difficult and "skill-required" jobs out of the bunch weren't necessarily paying the most at all, in fact it was almost the exact opposite, with a few exceptions of course.