If Luke knew who Anikan really was

[SuperJerk 0]

Luke is the actual chosen one then?  though Vader ultimately was the one that brought balance to the force, by hook or by crook...

Like I said, it appears to have changed. But the original intention was that Luke was the chosen one, not Anakin. The Empire dies with Vader, not with the Emperor being destroyed. And it was Luke that defeated Vader. Just listen to the score, the Empire's theme fades with Vader's death, not Palpatine's.

 

The climatic moment of the entire series is the final moments of the Luke/Vader duel (once the opera music starts) and Luke's decision not to go with the dark side. Everything afterwards is the aftermath.

So the only proof for your entire argument is which musical selections were playing in the background?

[CBright7831 0]

Don't worry, you'll hate Anakin when he walks into the Jedi temple, ignites his lightsaber, and begins slaughtering the younglings (the kid Jedis).

 

Fun times await, folks.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

Why not? George Lucas did tell John Williams to treat it as a silent film after all. Besides Ben Burtt says as much in the ROTJ commentary. It clearly was the original intention.

 

It is also stated several times in the early novels, such as the Thrawn Trilogy, but I don't think those count.

 

Vader brings balance to the Force by completely wrecking everything about it. Jedi are slaughtered, the flawed old codes forgotten, the Sith Lord is killed, and only one Jedi is left to start from scratch, with the lessons of the upheaval to share with his students.

 

Lucas is probably going to do that now, but originally Luke was the big hero that brought balance to the galaxy by eliminating the Sith.

 

Look at the whole Dagobah sequence from ROTJ. "You must defeat Vader. Then, only then, a Jedi will you be." Everything that Yoda & Obi-Wan talk about is that Luke must face his destiny by defeating Vader, and if not the Emperor will win. Not once do they ever mention that Luke has to fight Palpatine. Vader's defeat is the key. It is assumed that once that happens, everything would fall into place. And of course, even if none of that Luke/Vader stuff was even in the storyline, Palpatine still would have died when Lando blew up the Death Star.

[starvenger 0]

It is also stated several times in the early novels, such as the Thrawn Trilogy, but I don't think those count.

EU stuff isn't absolute unless Lucas wants to use it in the movies. Examples: The name Coruscant (novels), and the Sith mythology (Dark Horse comics).

[SuperJerk 0]

Lucas is probably going to do that now, but originally Luke was the big hero that brought balance to the galaxy by eliminating the Sith.

 

Look at the whole Dagobah sequence from ROTJ.  "You must defeat Vader.  Then, only then, a Jedi will you be."  Everything that Yoda & Obi-Wan talk about is that Luke must face his destiny by defeating Vader, and if not the Emperor will win.  Not once do they ever mention that Luke has to fight Palpatine.  Vader's defeat is the key.  It is assumed that once that happens, everything would fall into place.  And of course, even if none of that Luke/Vader stuff was even in the storyline, Palpatine still would have died when Lando blew up the Death Star.

The shift in the focus of the original trilogy from Luke to Vader occurred because it wasn't decided until "The Empire Strikes Back" was being written that Anakin and Vader were actually the same person (credit: Star Wars: the Anotated Screenplays...a great read if you can find a copy).

 

There's always a chance that had the Emperor lived, he could have somehow used the Dark Side to stop Lando.

 

If Luke defeated and killed Vader, then the Emperor would have no apprentice, and the Sith would die out with him.

 

Yoda specifically mentions defeating Darth Vader is the last step to Luke becoming a Jedi Knight, similar to how Obi-Wan became a Jedi Knight by defeating Darth Maul.

 

Besides, Yoda knew all along Luke had no hope of defeating the Emperor since Yoda already got his ass handed to him by the Emperor.

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

Don't worry, you'll hate Anakin when he walks into the Jedi temple, ignites his lightsaber, and begins slaughtering the younglings (the kid Jedis).

Holy crap, that will be great...

[starvenger 0]

Besides, Yoda knew all along Luke had no hope of defeating the Emperor since Yoda already got his ass handed to him by the Emperor.

Aren't retcons fun?

[cabbageboy 0]

I can't believe that spoiler...I mean wow, just wow. In a PG or PG-13 rated movie?

 

I do agree that Anakin has come off like a whiny punk in the first two here, but is this really Hayden Christiansen's fault? I've never seen him in anything else so I really have no clue about his ability overall (maybe the fact that I haven't seen him in anything says something, heh). Also, the script is so bent on showing this conflicted, angry side of Anakin that we never quite get why Obi Wan sees anything in him or why Amidala would marry him.

[Black Lushus 0]

well, technically, it was Qui-Gon that saw something in him...Obi-Wan was just following Qui-Gon's dying wish that Anakin be trained...I'm sure Palpatine's influence had something to do with the Jedi Council not being able to notice Anakin's decent to the dark side...as for Padme, hmmmm perhaps Anakin was working her all along with his mind tricks? I know they only work on the weak minded, but maybe he was able to overcome that?

[starvenger 0]

He's supposed to be good in Shattered Glass. It could be that Christiansen has problems acting in front of a blue screen, or that Lucas is too dictatorial a director, something else.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

He's supposed to be good in Shattered Glass.  It could be that Christiansen has problems acting in front of a blue screen, or that Lucas is too dictatorial a director, something else.

Lucas got bad performances from Samuel L. Jackson, Natalie Portman (who was almost as bad as Christensen), Liam Neeson & Terence Stamp as well, so I think it is safe to say where the blame goes.

 

The shift in the focus of the original trilogy from Luke to Vader occurred because it wasn't decided until "The Empire Strikes Back" was being written that Anakin and Vader were actually the same person (credit: Star Wars: the Anotated Screenplays...a great read if you can find a copy).

 

I have it.

[Guest LooneyTune]

Don't worry, you'll hate Anakin when he walks into the Jedi temple, ignites his lightsaber, and begins slaughtering the younglings (the kid Jedis).

 

Fun times await, folks.

Are you fucking serious? (wishes the movie was coming out sooner) Now THAT is being a fucking villain.

[The Metal Maniac 0]

Besides, Yoda knew all along Luke had no hope of defeating the Emperor

 

But doesn't Vader tell Luke that he can destroy the Emperor, as the Emperor used his Force powers to see into the future and forsaw the possibility of Luke killing him? I think I'd be more willing to believe that, to be honest.

 

And if you ask me, Luke does destroy the Emperor, if indirectly. He made Vader turn back and kill him, so it was kind of Luke's doing...indirectly, of course.

[Art Sandusky 0]

If Luke defeated and killed Vader, then the Emperor would have no apprentice, and the Sith would die out with him.

No, because then Luke would be the new Sith apprentice. Reading spoilers will let you know that this is something Palpatine does. He planned all along to get rid of Vader one day since his Force potential was stunted by his terrible injuries, but there were no Jedi left except for the blossoming skills of Luke.

 

And Obi-Wan wasn't called a Jedi because he defeated Darth Maul, he was already about to go through the Trials anyway, and I would think that killing a Sith would be a substitute for any tests the Jedi Council could have cooked up.

[Guest T®ITEC]

Don't worry, you'll hate Anakin when he walks into the Jedi temple, ignites his lightsaber, and begins slaughtering the younglings (the kid Jedis).

 

Fun times await, folks.

Are you fucking serious? (wishes the movie was coming out sooner) Now THAT is being a fucking villain.

Hilarious. I'm now making it a point to see this movie.

[Art Sandusky 0]

Besides, Yoda knew all along Luke had no hope of defeating the Emperor

 

But doesn't Vader tell Luke that he can destroy the Emperor, as the Emperor used his Force powers to see into the future and forsaw the possibility of Luke killing him? I think I'd be more willing to believe that, to be honest.

 

And if you ask me, Luke does destroy the Emperor, if indirectly. He made Vader turn back and kill him, so it was kind of Luke's doing...indirectly, of course.

The only thing Palpatine doesn't foresee coming the whole saga is Vader turning on him. Otherwise the plan was to have Luke kill Vader and take his place. As Luke said, his overconfidence in his hold on Vader was his ultimate weakness.

 

Yoda and Obi-Wan kinda use Luke to bring Vader back to the light side, knowing he can't defeat them by himself. Also, they still hold that whole "chosen one" thing about Anakin and know that he can be brought back. It was only a matter of waiting until the right vehicle came along.

[Lil' Bitch 0]

Vader ultimately was the one that brought balance to the force

 

Remember Anakin was the chosen one because according to the prophecy, he would be born without the assist of a father. He did bring balance to the force, they never did say that "balance" would be good thing.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

The only thing Palpatine doesn't foresee coming the whole saga is Vader turning on him. Otherwise the plan was to have Luke kill Vader and take his place. As Luke said, his overconfidence in his hold on Vader was his ultimate weakness.

 

He also didn't foresee the destruction of the Second Death Star.

[SuperJerk 0]

He's supposed to be good in Shattered Glass. It could be that Christiansen has problems acting in front of a blue screen, or that Lucas is too dictatorial a director, something else.

I'd say pretty much everyone's acting was shit in Ep.2, which makes it George's fault. Except for Portman. She's terrible in EVERYTHING.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

Vader ultimately was the one that brought balance to the force

 

Remember Anakin was the chosen one because according to the prophecy, he would be born without the assist of a father. He did bring balance to the force, they never did say that "balance" would be good thing.

I agree that is where Lucas is going, but it is still a flawed argument. Anakin did not bring balance to the force, at least not more than temporarily. The argument that I always hear is that he balances the force by making it so that there are only two Jedi to match the two Sith. But everybody is forgetting one thing, he doesn't kill every Jedi off but two of them. He kills them all but one (Yoda). He kills Obi-Wan personally in Episode IV, thus leaving it unbalanced, 2 Sith vs. 1 Jedi. Luke doesn't become a Jedi until after Yoda is dead.

[Art Sandusky 0]

Dude, look at the theory I had about the balance. It's the right one.

 

He also didn't foresee the destruction of the Second Death Star.

 

Because that happened after he was dead, and that part of the moving future would thus be completely blank.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

Vader brings balance to the Force by completely wrecking everything about it. Jedi are slaughtered, the flawed old codes forgotten, the Sith Lord is killed, and only one Jedi is left to start from scratch, with the lessons of the upheaval to share with his students.

 

But Vader doesn't bring them down to one. Vader brings them down to three. And without Luke, that's where it would stay. Luke is the one that can be credited with bringing down the Sith.

 

Because that happened after he was dead, and that part of the moving future would thus be completely blank.

 

He didn't say that the future was cloudy. He said that he specifically foresaw the destruction of the Alliance, and that Luke would turn. The Luke question is solved even before his death.

[Guest Beingz0wningj00]

I always interpreted Anakin bring balance to the force as some metaphor for Good vs. Evil.

 

What I mean is, in the new movies, the Jedi are powerful...a threat from the Sith isn't that big of a deal as the balance seems to be on their side. Until Anakin comes along. His powers end up nearly destroying all the Jedi, so he and the Emperor have a strangle hold over the Force...the balance in their case is the Dark side.

 

When Vader destroys the Emperor, the strangle hold is released and balance is returned, left with Luke. Luke is left to start over, with the force in a more neutral power and ready to enlighten those who follow.

[Art Sandusky 0]

Vader brings balance to the Force by completely wrecking everything about it. Jedi are slaughtered, the flawed old codes forgotten, the Sith Lord is killed, and only one Jedi is left to start from scratch, with the lessons of the upheaval to share with his students.

 

But Vader doesn't bring them down to one. Vader brings them down to three. And without Luke, that's where it would stay. Luke is the one that can be credited with bringing down the Sith.

 

Because that happened after he was dead, and that part of the moving future would thus be completely blank.

 

He didn't say that the future was cloudy. He said that he specifically foresaw the destruction of the Alliance, and that Luke would turn. The Luke question is solved even before his death.

Luke got Anakin to turn back to the light side, but Vader still essentially disposed of everyone but Luke by the end of ROTJ.

 

And the Emperor never explicitly said "the future is clouded," but if he didn't see Vader turning on him, he wouldn't be able to foresee anything after that.

[SuperJerk 0]

He didn't say that the future was cloudy. He said that he specifically foresaw the destruction of the Alliance, and that Luke would turn. The Luke question is solved even before his death.

He could have been lying to psyche-out Luke. Maybe he saw nothing but only pretended to?

[Justice 0]

He didn't say that the future was cloudy.  He said that he specifically foresaw the destruction of the Alliance, and that Luke would turn.  The Luke question is solved even before his death.

He could have been lying to psyche-out Luke. Maybe he saw nothing but only pretended to?

I always thought that he realized that while the Death Star would have been destroyed, he and Luke (His new apprentice) would still be able to get out and escape no matter what. If they had lived, with Luke turned, that would have taken a keystone figure out of the Alliance and brought about its downfall.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

He didn't say that the future was cloudy.  He said that he specifically foresaw the destruction of the Alliance, and that Luke would turn.  The Luke question is solved even before his death.

He could have been lying to psyche-out Luke. Maybe he saw nothing but only pretended to?

He tells it to Vader before Luke is even there. Palpatine isn't stupid. If he thought that the Rebel Fleet was any sort of a threat, he wouldn't have been anywhere near the Death Star when they were going to make their attack. Palpatine's big failure has nothing to do with either Luke or Vader. It is his inability to forsee that the Rebels on Endor would get aid from the Ewoks and able to bring the Shield Generator down. He says that the Rebels would fail at bringing down the Shield Generator, and that is why he was confident that the Fleet wouldn't be able to destroy the Death Star. But because of the Ewoks, Solo does manage to destroy the Shield Generator, and he does it before Palpatine's death as well.

 

If you notice, the Original Star Wars trilogy is very much against the idea of Fate. Obi-Wan & Yoda forsee that Vader cannot be saved, yet Luke disagrees and manages to do it. Vader forsees that Luke will join him to take down the Emperor, yet it doesn't happen. The Emperor forsees that the Rebel Alliance will be destroyed at Endor, yet the Empire falls instead. Luke fights his own destiny (as seen in the cave in ESB), and succeeds in changing his fate.

 

The prequels seem to say the opposite, but I'm not discussing them.

 

Luke got Anakin to turn back to the light side, but Vader still essentially disposed of everyone but Luke by the end of ROTJ.

 

Vader did absolutely nothing to Yoda. He died of natural causes.

 

And the Emperor never explicitly said "the future is clouded," but if he didn't see Vader turning on him, he wouldn't be able to foresee anything after that.

 

He can't sense that Luke is on Endor either, Vader has to tell him. The Emperor is not all-powerful.

[cabbageboy 0]

Am I the only one not feeling this whole Palpatine thing? I mean I haven't really seen much in the first two movies from this guy that makes me think he's going to end up the ULTRA BAD ASS Emperor that tries to rule the universe. At most he seems like a smarmy politician who is lying his ass off to the senate while belonging to a cult on the side.

 

As far as Lucas goes, people are just now finding out the man can't direct? Hell in my view the best two Star Wars movies are the ones he DIDN'T direct (namely Empire and Jedi). Notice how much better the acting got later in the first trilogy once someone else was directing and Lucas was producing and writing, etc. And note how bleh the acting has been in the new trilogy.

 

Oh, I will say that Christopher Lee was cool in Ep. 2. What happens to Dooku in Ep. 3 anyway? I'm pretty sure he's going to get whacked but by whom?

[Guest LooneyTune]

I have no idea on any of the spoilers, so anything I say is just guesses and speculaion...

 

Maybe Palpatine has one of his men (cough:Anakin:Cough) take him out, or maybe Obi-Wan gets some revenge. I have a good feeling he bites the dust, which everyone probably knows already.

[Guest CronoT]

Besides, Yoda knew all along Luke had no hope of defeating the Emperor

 

But doesn't Vader tell Luke that he can destroy the Emperor, as the Emperor used his Force powers to see into the future and forsaw the possibility of Luke killing him? I think I'd be more willing to believe that, to be honest.

 

And if you ask me, Luke does destroy the Emperor, if indirectly. He made Vader turn back and kill him, so it was kind of Luke's doing...indirectly, of course.

Alright, let a true Star Wars Geek let you all in on something: The reason that Yoda kept telling Luke he had to fight Vader was because he knew Anakin had never completely turned to the dark side, as Palpatine had. Also, if Luke had fought the Emperor, he would have lost, because one of two things would have happened:

 

1. Palpatine would have just outright killed Luke, or

2. Palpatine would have let Luke kill him, but in such a way that it would have driven him to the dark side. So, even if the Emperor died, he would have won, since Luke would have become a Dark Jedi/Sith.

 

The more likely outcome would have been #2, since that was what Palpatine was trying to do in the first place, by goading Luke on, right before Luke and Vader went at it. When Luke cut off Vader's hand in anger, he walked on the dark side. If he had actually killed Vader, there would have been no turning back.

 

You should read the EU, especially the early Jedi Academy stuff, if you want to know more about the Sith. Exar Kun was one bad mofo.