Evolution is a Mystery

[Art Sandusky 0]

Teach creationism in history class, evolution in science class. That's what my high school did, and I didn't come out of it as a nutcase.

Why the hell would anyone teach creationism in history class, except to to point to it as an idea that belongs on the scrap heap of history with fascism, divine right of kings, and the New Coke.

That's what it was, basically. You had to write an essay arguing either in favor of creationism or evolution, and it didn't matter which side you took, as long as you made a convincing argument.

[SuperJerk 0]

Teach creationism in history class, evolution in science class. That's what my high school did, and I didn't come out of it as a nutcase.

Why the hell would anyone teach creationism in history class, except to to point to it as an idea that belongs on the scrap heap of history with fascism, divine right of kings, and the New Coke.

Uh, yeah. Y2Jerk gets a little too eager to debunk people.

 

Don't you have someone's grammar to go correct or something?

[Guest Felonies!]

Testy! I'm not the one that made you overreact.

[Mik 0]

The other day this really strict Christian told me to "not be so naive" when I mentioned evolution.

 

It almost made my head explode.

[SuperJerk 0]

I doubt half the people who defend creationism have never even read the first chapter of Genesis. The one's who have read it and defend it usually have to resort to saying, "It could've happened that way because God can do anything and you got to have faith in God." And apparently God left all of this geological and biological evidence around just to trick us into not believing in Him.

[Art Sandusky 0]

The creationists used stuff like canopy theory and that the Bible is an allegory; it wasn't literally seven days.

[SuperJerk 0]

I don't understand the point of the canopy theory.

 

Most people I know who beleive in evolution also believe that evolution was the tool God used to create the various species of the planet (which is compatible with the allegorical argument). Those aren't the people pushing for teaching "intelligent design" in schools, even though the concept of intelligent design isn't incompatible with evolution.

[chaosrage 0]

The creationists used stuff like canopy theory and that the Bible is an allegory; it wasn't literally seven days.

 

Canopy theory? Jesus, what kind of high school did you go to? Even the batshit insane young earth creationists are not dumb enough to believe the canopy theory.

 

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/...lood-waters.asp

Arguments we think creationists should NOT use

 

http://www.godandscience.org/youngearth/canopy.html

[SuperJerk 0]

Arguments we think creationists should NOT use

Just how many creationist myths need to be debunk before you just say "forget it"? Whoever wrote that page takes creationism completely to school for some of their ridicules assertions.

 

Then of course, this site also contain these gems of arguments:

Facts’ are neutral. However, there are no such things as ‘brute facts’; all facts are interpreted. Once the Bible is eliminated in the argument, then the Christians’ presuppositions are gone, leaving them unable to effectively give an alternate interpretation of the facts. Their opponents then have the upper hand as they still have their presuppositions.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v22/i1/creation.asp

 

In other words, all facts = opinions.

 

Atheism, with its evolutionary rationale, says ‘love’ is nothing more than self-interest in increasing the chances of our genes surviving in our offspring or our close relatives. In the ‘struggle for survival of the fittest,’ where is the basis for compassion? Hitler’s death camps grew out of his desire for the ‘Aryan race’ to win the battle for ‘the preservation of favored races in the struggle for life.'

 

However, not only is atheism destructive, it is logically flawed at its very roots because there must be a Creator, as we shall see.

 

http://www.answersingenesis.org/Home/Area/.../existence1.asp

 

Atheists = Hitler

 

Today, brothers and sisters (and half-brothers and half-sisters, etc.) are not permitted by law to marry because their children have an unacceptably high risk of being deformed. The more closely the parents are related, the more likely it is that any offspring will be deformed.

 

There is a very sound genetic reason for such laws that is easy to understand. Every person has two sets of genes that specify how a person is put together and functions. Each person inherits one gene of each pair from each parent. Unfortunately, genes today contain many mistakes (because of sin and the Curse), and these mistakes show up in a variety of ways. For instance, some people let their hair grow over their ears to hide the fact that one ear is lower than the other—or perhaps someone’s nose is not quite in the middle of his or her face, or someone’s jaw is a little out of shape—and so on. Let’s face it, the main reason we call each other normal is because of our common agreement to do so!

 

http://www.answersingenesis.org/Home/Area/.../cains_wife.asp

 

This is from an argument as to why it was okay for Cain to marry his sister.

 

Physical deformities are the result of original sin. Adam and Eve were physically perfect, and thus, they had perfect kids, and harmful recessive genes didn't enter into the equation until after the exile from Eden. I have no counter argument for this except to ask: "Why would a benevolent God would curse 300 generations of humanity because someone got it in the their head one day it'd be okay to eat a piece of fruit?"

 

That's my underlying problem, really. Doubt about creationism comes from my skepticism that the Bible is true. The guy responcible for that websites makes literally hundreds of assumptions about what is true based on the fact that he can point to proof of it in the Bible. Non-believers can, on the other hand, use thousands of sources as proof that contradict the Bible.

 

The only proof for the literal interpretation of the Bible is the Bible itself, and the only proof for science is scientific evidence. Which has more credibility: the one that's been handed down in book form from 3,000 years ago, or the one that can be independently verified through testing, duplication of experiments, and collection of additional data? YOU DECIDE!

[Dr. Zaius 0]

Atheists = Hitler

 

Good thing he doesn't post here.

 

http://forums.thesmartmarks.com/index.php?...dpost&p=1862423

[Big Ol' Smitty 0]

Stein: When we just saw that man, I think it was Mr. Myers [i.e. biologist P.Z. Myers], talking about how great scientists were, I was thinking to myself the last time any of my relatives saw scientists telling them what to do they were telling them to go to the showers to get gassed … that was horrifying beyond words, and that’s where science — in my opinion, this is just an opinion — that’s where science leads you.

 

Crouch: That’s right.

 

Stein: …Love of God and compassion and empathy leads you to a very glorious place, and science leads you to killing people.

 

Crouch: Good word, good word.

 

http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=N...zFiZDE2NjM3NWE=

 

(The Stein is Ben Stein, of Ferris Bueller fame, and the guy who just made this anti-evolution movie.

[Edwin MacPhisto 0]

The whole Expelled thing has been such an embarrassment for its director, Stein, and the other people involved. I mean, if anything can be more embarrassing than believing in intelligent design or creationism in the first place, that is.

[SuperJerk 0]

Stein: …Love of God and compassion and empathy leads you to a very glorious place, and science leads you to killing people.

 

Wow...when did Ben Stein move to Nutjob Land?

 

Anyone? Anyone?

[Gary Floyd 0]

I saw "Expelled" last night. Good God, Stein is a fucking putz. For Christ sake, I knew Creationism was Bullshit when I was 7. The fact that people past that age believe it depresses me.

[SamoaRowe 0]

Wait, that's really the position the movie takes? Wow, that's disappointing.

 

I always thought Ben Stein was a smart guy, but now I'm noticing that I really don't know much about him other than his game show and commercials.

[Gary Floyd 0]

The movie isn't even laughably bad. It's like something Michael Moore would do if he were conservative and even more obnoxious (I didn't think the last part was possible)

[Nighthawk 0]

From what I read about, the movie seemed more to be about censorship than creationism. I'll see it later this week, probably.

 

 

 

But, while I don't find otherwise intelligent people believing in creationism "depressing" per se, I think the best option is to just ignore it. I don't like going the Christopher Hitchens route of being a condescending asshole. It's obviously bullshit, but so what? In the end, nothing really matters. It's not like I don't have believes most people would consider radical and bizarre, but it doesn't affect anything on a day to day basis.

 

(That's just on a personal level, sidestepping the whole curriculum thing. But I'm not in school and don't have children, so that's neither here nor there.)

[Guest College Party]

I always thought Ben Stein was a smart guy, but now I'm noticing that I really don't know much about him other than his game show and commercials.

He was a speechwriter for Nixon. You must be crushed!

 

I'm not comfortable with how Ben Stein is drawing such a straight line between evolutionary theory and the Holocaust, but it's hard to deny that it did play some part. As for creationism, I don't think Gary Floyd needs to present himself as the smartest 7-year-old on the block here: I think most people can agree that Genesis is an allegory and still believe that there's more to this whole thing than we can understand.

[DrVenkman PhD 0]

I'm glad I work with a Christian Apologetic who was able to tell me what the Canopy Theory was (and tell me how stupid it is, though I gathered that just from his explanation) within seconds of me reading the term here.

[SamoaRowe 0]

I always thought Ben Stein was a smart guy, but now I'm noticing that I really don't know much about him other than his game show and commercials.

He was a speechwriter for Nixon. You must be crushed!

 

Nope, I didn't know that bit either. Though I'd hardly say I'm "crushed" as I didn't have any sort of emotional investment in viewing Stein as a good guy, nor would I hold that job against him in the first place.

[Big Ol' Smitty 0]

I think most people can agree that Genesis is an allegory and still believe that there's more to this whole thing than we can understand.

 

No, most people can't agree on this:

 

USA Today/Gallup Poll. June 1-3, 2007. N=1,007 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.

 

"Next, we'd like to ask about your views on two different explanations for the origin and development of life on earth. Do you think [see below] is definitely true, probably true, probably false, or definitely false?"

 

"Creationism -- that is, the idea that God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years"

 

Definitely True 39%

Probably True 27%

Probably False 16%

Definitely False 15%

Unsure 3%

 

I'm not comfortable with how Ben Stein is drawing such a straight line between evolutionary theory and the Holocaust, but it's hard to deny that it did play some part.

 

This is bullshit. Racist pseudoscience fueled what the Nazis were doing, not anything approaching real science.

 

Ben Stein uses the death camps and the Zyklon-B gas chambers to push modern day pseudoscience and to smear real, actual science. He should be a national laughingstock.

 

[SuperJerk 0]

I have yet to met an opponent of the theory of evolution that could actually correctly explain the theory of evolution.

[Spaceman Spiff 0]

Y'know, not having seen the movie, and only reading various reviews & message board posts, it would seem Ben Stein is being deliberately obtuse so as to discredit creationism/intelligent design.

[Mr. S£im Citrus 0]

I missed this thread the first (and second?) time around, and have nothing to contribute to this "debate," or whatever y'all are calling it... I just wanted to say that my nickname in high school was Slarti (for Slartibartfast).