Why is Indy Wrestling So Much Better Than WWE?

[Copper Feel 0]

I think that the main reason some people prefer the indys to wwe, is that it gives them a chance to rebel against a much biger promotion. By killing themselves infront of a few hundred people, indy wrestlers reach out to fans who are sick of a less is more ringstyle. You get the idea that if roh got a national pay per view deal, their product would seem less influential, kinda like ECW from 1997 on.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

You can look at a question this way: Could Benoit/Regal at the Pillman Memorial Show have been as good if it occured in the WWE?

 

And then you have to analyze things like what are the limitations of the style WWE wrestlers work, the limits on their moves, and so on. And then compare that to the free reign they could have as indy workers.

But Brian, did Benoit get as good as he was in the indies?

 

I think, and this is a generalization (as is the question of the thread), that Indies lack the polish that WWE matches have, and that WWE wrestlers have better timing and pacing than indy workers. This is the benefit of working a formula. The disadvantage of working a formula is that matches are often predictable and there isn't a lot of real excitement. However, Indies have greater range of moves and are more inventive than WWE matches. This could make for more exciting matches. With that said, Indy workers have a tendancy to use "big" moves liberally and not give them (the moves) the "weight" they deserve. That's the disadvantage of not having limits.

 

So Indy workers have to decide when enough is enough, and the less experienced ones simply don't know that. They also don't know their own limits, so they try things that are out of their ability and you end up with a blown or awkward looking spot. That doesn't happen in the WWE, for the most part, which is why it comes off as so "polished". As someone who was raised on the WWE, I like that more polished aspect. Because when wrestling becomes too rough, it sorta takes me out of the match.

 

The WWE also has an aesthetic appeal that Indy wrestling doesn't have. The bigger ring, the sleeker ring attire, the entrances, the production value. Wrestling is a visual medium, so this is important. I don't expect small promotions to have huge lighting, screens, pyro, etc. But I don't want it looking scummy either with guys wrestling in their t-shirts. If you can only do cheesy early-90's graphics in 2005, it's better to not do to graphics at all. Ring announcing is a toss-up. I can't stand the high-pitched smark commentary from the indies, but I also can't stand the used car salesman style of JR.

 

I think that a lot of Indy workers are playing "pretend". Where they pretend to be an MMA fighter, or an amateur wrestler, or a Japanese wrestler. That's annoying. They're doing a spinning elbow because Misawa did a spinning elbow, not because it works for the match. There is also a lot more telegraphing moves in the Indies than there is in the WWE. Guys missing clotheslines that couldn't even catch the big show, and lots of hesitation and long stares. Then again, most WWE guys aren't even pretending to be wrestlers.

 

In the end, would I choose to watch Samoa Joe over Chris Masters? Of course. But I would also choose to watch Rey Mysterio over The Amazing Red. In the end, I watch for wrestlers, not promotions.

[CanadianChick 0]

I think sometimes, especially if you are there live, that an indy match is better because of the emotional attachement you have for the match. Alot of the time, you "know" the wrestlers who are wrestling and therefore you care about them more.

[Guest Brian]

You can look at a question this way: Could Benoit/Regal at the Pillman Memorial Show have been as good if it occured in the WWE?

 

And then you have to analyze things like what are the limitations of the style WWE wrestlers work, the limits on their moves, and so on. And then compare that to the free reign they could have as indy workers.

But Brian, did Benoit get as good as he was in the indies?

 

I think, and this is a generalization (as is the question of the thread), that Indies lack the polish that WWE matches have, and that WWE wrestlers have better timing and pacing than indy workers. This is the benefit of working a formula. The disadvantage of working a formula is that matches are often predictable and there isn't a lot of real excitement. However, Indies have greater range of moves and are more inventive than WWE matches. This could make for more exciting matches. With that said, Indy workers have a tendancy to use "big" moves liberally and not give them (the moves) the "weight" they deserve. That's the disadvantage of not having limits.

 

So Indy workers have to decide when enough is enough, and the less experienced ones simply don't know that. They also don't know their own limits, so they try things that are out of their ability and you end up with a blown or awkward looking spot. That doesn't happen in the WWE, for the most part, which is why it comes off as so "polished". As someone who was raised on the WWE, I like that more polished aspect. Because when wrestling becomes too rough, it sorta takes me out of the match.

 

The WWE also has an aesthetic appeal that Indy wrestling doesn't have. The bigger ring, the sleeker ring attire, the entrances, the production value. Wrestling is a visual medium, so this is important. I don't expect small promotions to have huge lighting, screens, pyro, etc. But I don't want it looking scummy either with guys wrestling in their t-shirts. If you can only do cheesy early-90's graphics in 2005, it's better to not do to graphics at all. Ring announcing is a toss-up. I can't stand the high-pitched smark commentary from the indies, but I also can't stand the used car salesman style of JR.

 

I think that a lot of Indy workers are playing "pretend". Where they pretend to be an MMA fighter, or an amateur wrestler, or a Japanese wrestler. That's annoying. They're doing a spinning elbow because Misawa did a spinning elbow, not because it works for the match. There is also a lot more telegraphing moves in the Indies than there is in the WWE. Guys missing clotheslines that couldn't even catch the big show, and lots of hesitation and long stares. Then again, most WWE guys aren't even pretending to be wrestlers.

 

In the end, would I choose to watch Samoa Joe over Chris Masters? Of course. But I would also choose to watch Rey Mysterio over The Amazing Red. In the end, I watch for wrestlers, not promotions.

Good write-up.

 

I'm not saying Benoit is better because of the indies, but that the indies allow him and Regal to do something they couldn't in a WWE ring. And that's something that needs to be taken into consideration.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

BUT, would the indies provide an environment for someone to improve in? OR would it provide an environment to develop bad habits? Benoit didn't get to where he was because of modern indy wrestling, he got there through wrestling in Japan, the old territorial system (Stampede), and "big time" wrestling in WCW and the WWE.

[Jingus 0]

Damn good points, Rudo.

 

Indy workers have a tendancy to use "big" moves liberally and not give them (the moves) the "weight" they deserve.

Abso-fucking-lutely. I call this tendency "finisher burn", where they do two piledrivers and five powerbombs and seventeen moves off the top rope and a million DDTs all in one match. It just gets tiresome to see them hit a bazillion moves and never sell a goddamn thing.

 

Ring announcing is a toss-up. I can't stand the high-pitched smark commentary from the indies, but I also can't stand the used car salesman style of JR.

I gotta find a way to upload some of the matches I've commentated sometime. I never ever get any feedback on my stuff. I try to find a middle ground between in-joke smarkiness and "bah gawd" screaming.

 

I think that a lot of Indy workers are playing "pretend". Where they pretend to be an MMA fighter, or an amateur wrestler, or a Japanese wrestler. That's annoying. They're doing a spinning elbow because Misawa did a spinning elbow, not because it works for the match.

That's something I've seen so often that I almost want to start doing shoot run-ins on the markish motherfuckers who commit this particular sin. I'm not immune to the lure of cool Japanese spots either, I actually stole a sequence from Kobashi/Misawa-Kawada/Taue 6/9/95 and used it in one of my matches, but I only stole ONE spot. Some indy wrestlers seem like their entire offense is comprised of stuff they ganked from other people. Prime example: Low-Ki. I don't know if I've ever seen him do a move that wasn't stolen from some puro guy.

[Guest Brian]

BUT, would the indies provide an environment for someone to improve in?  OR would it provide an environment to develop bad habits?  Benoit didn't get to where he was because of modern indy wrestling, he got there through wrestling in Japan, the old territorial system (Stampede), and "big time" wrestling in WCW and the WWE.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm not saying it necessarily would, but that the climate and conditions under which indy workers are under do lend themselves to being more creative, and working out of the formula of WWE matches allows them to deliver something that WWE workers cannot. Certain workers are going to be more prone to improvement; their environment and their drive to understand what goes into a match and such will push them to get better. But the product at that level is far more local, far more saturated (in terms of talent across the area), and the WWE has far more resources to develop the kinds of polish that alot of people like. But I can understand why people favor the environment indy wrestling offers, especially to top class wrestlers.

[Tim Cooke 0]

"Recently, I'd much rather watch Raw than almost any indy show in existence. Plain and simple, the WWE can afford to sign whoever they want and that leads to them having the best roster in the country. Does even ROH have a group of guys that can compare overall to Benoit, Angle, Guerrero, Misterio, Michaels, HHH, Jericho, Taker, RVD, so on and so forth? I don't think so."

 

If we equate what you said to baseball, the Yankees are the top dogs because they have the largest pay roll and can get whoever they want. Are they the most exciting team? Do they win the most?

 

Without getting into specifics, the ROH roster doesn't have Eddy Guerrero or Rey Misterio Jr. on their roster. Besides those two, I say ROH matches up very well against the other wrestlers on the list.

 

* Benoit - Benoit would get the Eddy/Rey treatment if he is ever to revert back to his old self; i.e. instead of german suplexes and crossfaces as 95% of his move set, he does what made him one of the best in the world for so many years. Danielson compares very easily, minus the natural brawling ability of Benoit, which Danielson doesn't possess naturally.

 

* Angle - I don't think Angle is horrible but he isn't doing anything that most well trained wrestlers should be able to accomplish. Angle's best quality to me was his meshing with a flyer like Rey Jr. James Gibson is just as strong of a base but also has the wrestling fundamentals.

 

* Michaels - I haven't seen a Michael's match that I liked in a long time. His comparison to the indies is easy-he is just as spotty as the former Special K guys of the world...only I would argue the Special K guys sell better from the March/April 2005 ROH releases.

 

* HHH - HHH is the definition of mediocre. His move set, selling, way of working, etc. is either ass backwards or not fundamentally sound. I always get a kick when he is compared to Flair or Race. As much as Flair was a by the numbers kind of wrestler, he was over and used it to better himself and his opponent. What sticks out about HHH that would be helpful to a company?

 

Jericho, RVD, etc. more of the same. Undertaker is valuable, but a monster can be built up.

 

"Hell, even Bradshaw was a better heavyweight champion than Xavier."

 

Bradshaw was a decent champion but Xavier was hardly bad. Another general misconception.

 

Tim

[Jingus 0]

Dammit, Tim, sometimes it seems like you challenge my posts here just to be contrary. What did I ever do to you?

 

 

 

...uh, except for banning you that one time... nevermind.

 

 

 

 

 

But seriously, when has Jamie Gibson or any Special K guy had a match as good as Angle-Michaels from Wrestlemania?

[bob_barron 0]

But seriously, when has Jamie Gibson or any Special K guy had a match as good as Angle-Michaels from Wrestlemania?

 

But the question is, do Kurt Angle and Shawn Michaels put on matches as consistenly good as James Gibson does?

 

I mean at 5/7, Gibson v. Black Tiger was great stuff.

[Mystery Eskimo 0]

I'd say Aries-Gibson from "Stalemate" was just as good as Angle/Michaels.

[King Cucaracha 0]

It depends what you're looking for.

 

It's hard to answer outside of that. Indy Wrestling covers 1000s of promotions. WWE is one promotion. To compare 1000s to 1 without stereotyping every indie worker in the world is impossible.

[Tim Cooke 0]

Nah, no resentment from the past. You just raise views and arguments that intrigue me.

 

"But seriously, when has Jamie Gibson or any Special K guy had a match as good as Angle-Michaels from Wrestlemania?"

 

For my money, the Lacy's Angels vs. Dixie/Azriel from 4/16/05 was as good if not better than Michaels/Angle.

 

Clear cut faces and heels? Yes.

Faces and Heels who act their parts? Yes.

Consistant selling? Yes.

Match consists of more than a spotfest assortment of moves? Yes.

 

As for Gibson, I don't think we have seen the tip of the iceburg with him. I have enjoyed his work but I am still waiting to be blown away like I know he is capable of. I think the 5/7 Black Tiger match might be it. But for consistent work:

 

vs. Spanky 2/25

vs. Puma 2/26

vs. Romero 3/12

vs. Strong 4/2

 

4 matches, the first 3 which aren't even better than good, but all just as fundamentally sound as Angle/Michaels. And the 4th is Michaels/Angle, worked better. Same story, more selling, more move variation, better transitions. Not as much heat, but 22,000 > 750.

 

Tim

[Shooting Star 0]

I care about the wrestlers not the promotions. That sums it all up RRR those were some wise words.