Why is Indy Wrestling So Much Better Than WWE?

[natey2k4 0]

This is just my question for the day. Your opinion why Indy Wrestling is better, or if it even is better. Let's hear it. I'll post my comments following some of yours.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Indy wrestling isn't necessarily better than WWE, as the majority of Indy workers are leagues below all but the worst on the WWE roster. It's just that Indy wrestlers have a lot more freedom in their matches, and are generally allowed to wrestle balls to the wall, and you'll see a lot more than you'll see out of the typical WWE match, due to WWE wrestlers being restricted to 'WWE style'.

[Adam 0]

I disagree. Indy wrestling is that much better because all the guys kill themselves to get a good spot. In WWE, only a handful of guys go out there and perform to their best at every taping. Sure, WWE guys are 'toned down' by their style, but a great wrestler cn have a great match regardless of the restrictions.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

I disagree. Indy wrestling is that much better because all the guys kill themselves to get a good spot. In WWE, only a handful of guys go out there and perform to their best at every taping. Sure, WWE guys are 'toned down' by their style, but a great wrestler cn have a great match regardless of the restrictions.

Indy wrestling is that much better because all the guys kill themselves to get a good spot.

 

I'm sure all the guys kill themselves. That doesn't mean they'll have great matches, or are any better than guys in WWE. It's no use Generic Indy worker being able to pull of a million flips if he doesn't know how and why to use those flips. He might be a more spectacular worker than the average WWE guy, but he won't be a better worker.

 

Sure, WWE guys are 'toned down' by their style, but a great wrestler cn have a great match regardless of the restrictions.

 

Not always true. You might get a stellar worker being able to pull something decent out of some total stiffs, but to get something great, even the best of workers needs something to work with, and if they're facing a total putz, then the chances of them getting something great out of him are reduced if you limit what they can do.

[Adam 0]

Oh come on. The top Indy guys, those guys that have risen to the top of ROH, TNA etc have done so because they've tried harder and done more than anyone else. When ROH first started, I watched guys like Danielson, Daniels, Low Ki, Styles, etc. put on better matches than just about any WWF/E stuff I had seen. They were more athletic, had better endurance, and looked like they cared about the match they were having, rather than a lotof WWF/E people, who go out and have a House Show or TV match in a low gear, because good or bad, it still pays the same. For Indy guys, they have to put on a good show, or they won't get booked again. WWE guys can have bad matches and it won't effect their spot as much.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Do all Indy guys bust their asses ? Yes. And I'm sure some of them are doing so to try and get a spot in WWE. But there are literally thousands of Indy guys, and while the likes of Daniels, Danielson, etc are, talent wise, ready for prime time, the vast majority are nowhere near good enough. Just because a select few Indy guys, talented as they are, get a lot of deserved praise, it doesn't change the fact that the majority of Indy guys are far less talented than a lot of the WWE roster.

[Jingus 0]

Same reason that indy films tend to be more interesting than Hollywood crap, or that a high-school football game can be more exciting and compelling than the Superbowl: money. Or the lack thereof. The WWE is a real official grown-up Corporation, with public stock and everything. Like most corporations, they don't want to take a lot of risks because if they do, it's their ass. Especially when you're talking about a business that posess such painfully permanent hazards to the employees as wrestling does. Especially when half of their TV shows are done LIVE. (To put it in perspective, who blows the most "spots": any WWE worker on Raw, or Jimmy Fallon on an average episode of SNL?)

 

In the minor leagues, on the other hand, very little of that pressure exists. Money isn't a factor, because for most indy workers, there isn't any. It's just them, their opponent, and a few dozen fans in attendance at some national guard armory. Their passion and drive to put on a good show for the fans (and, not unrelatedly, perhaps get noticed by the higher-ups) is their primary motivation, which leads to taking a lot more chances, which can lead to a much more exciting and unusual product than the stale, safe, predictable Big Leagues can offer.

[Cuban Linx 0]

In terms of the matches themselves, it helps that in most indies, the major ones at least, they specifically go out there to 'have a good match', with no restrictions and plenty of time to do so. The vast majority of WWE matches, certainly on free TV, are for furthering angles, eating up a little time between 20 Minute Monologues and Diva Searches, or don't get enough time to achieve much of anything at all.

[Nevermortal 0]

I don't believe that indy wrestling is much better than WWE. It's just way too weird and sleazy.

 

Japanese wrestling, however....

[Adam 0]

Do all Indy guys bust their asses ? Yes. And I'm sure some of them are doing so to try and get a spot in WWE. But there are literally thousands of Indy guys, and while the likes of Daniels, Danielson, etc are, talent wise, ready for prime time, the vast majority are nowhere near good enough. Just because a select few Indy guys, talented as they are, get a lot of deserved praise, it doesn't change the fact that the majority of Indy guys are far less talented than a lot of the WWE roster.

I'm not denying that the majority of Indy Wrestlers aren't as talented as WWE guys, this argument is about why Indy Wrestling is better, and I told you why. Indy wrestlers care about their matches way more than WWE guys do, and that makes them try harder, which makes the product better.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Trying hard doesn't always equate into having a good match.

 

I don't deny that some Indy matches haven't blown away some major WWE matches, because they have, but as a whole, the stuff in WWE is better than what you see in the Indy scene.

[thecitythesky 0]

Do all Indy guys bust their asses ? Yes. And I'm sure some of them are doing so to try and get a spot in WWE. But there are literally thousands of Indy guys, and while the likes of Daniels, Danielson, etc are, talent wise, ready for prime time, the vast majority are nowhere near good enough. Just because a select few Indy guys, talented as they are, get a lot of deserved praise, it doesn't change the fact that the majority of Indy guys are far less talented than a lot of the WWE roster.

I'm not denying that the majority of Indy Wrestlers aren't as talented as WWE guys, this argument is about why Indy Wrestling is better, and I told you why. Indy wrestlers care about their matches way more than WWE guys do, and that makes them try harder, which makes the product better.

*

 

But really, all you're doing is mentioning why the cream of the cream of the crop is better than the WWE. In reality, 98% of indy wrestlers are absolutely outclassed by anything on television in the WWE. Now, to say that the best of the best of the best, and that folks who could legitimately be positioned as 4 of the top 25-30 in the world right now as a reason why indy wrestling as a whole is better than the WWE product is honestly ignorant. You're essentially naming exceptions in an effort to prove the rule. To say that ROH puts on a better in-ring product than Vince does is foolish; you're going to find very little disagreement. However, to use the stars of the stars as a basis for why the indies, as a whole, are better than the WWE (which they certainly are not... go to a random show at some legion hall sometime - instead of buying massively pimped tapes) is assinine.

 

EDIT: Oh, and most indy guys are lifetime "weekend warriors" so the last thing they care about is having a classic (or even good) match. All they want to do is live some wrestler fantasy and have a good time, have fun, and get paid.

[Adam 0]

Well then next time specify when you want to talk about all fucking Indy Wrestling rather than the top federations. Its a complete no-brainer to say that a hick fed that 5 people turn up to watch is better than WWE, and I'd be an idiot to try and argue that case, so I'm not. I'm arguing for the bigger Indy feds, ROH, IWA:MS, PWG, etc. The other day I was told that after a World Title match, Jimmy Jacobs wrestled an 'impromptu' 65 minute 8 man elimination tag match. Now seriously, how many WWE wrestlers would have the balls or the fucking endurance to work that kind of night?

 

The question is: Why Is INDY WRESTLING so much better than WWE? Well that's easy. Indy WRESTLING is WRESTLING. WWE is SPORTS ENTERTAINMENT. WWE will NEVER BE absolute wrestling. Wrestling alone doesn't sell to the wider market. To us, to fans of WRESTLING, Indy feds will always shit all over WWE for the simple fact that Indies focus on Wrestling, not a bunch of softcore pornstars parading in bikinis, or a 25 minute promo about how good someone is. Indies will always cater to wrestling fans, because they don't have any intention of becoming a multi-million dollar company. A comparison: WWF Survivor Series 1998, the Deadly Game Tournament. You had Rock, HHH, Mankind, Austin, Taker, Kane, the list goes on. But out of all those matches, I can only really remember that Mankind-Austin was ok, and thats about it.

 

Now, Ring of Honor's fourth show: Road to the Title. You had AJ Styles, Low Ki, Daniels, Lynn, Dragon, Spanky, Red, Doug Williams, Jody Fleisch, Jonny Storm, Paul London and a few others. I dare you to put AJ Styles vs. Jerry Lynn, AJ Styles vs. Christopher Daneils, and Spanky vs. Paul London up against any of the matches from SurSer and tell me that they are a better wrestling match. Bullshit. Both Styles matches were around the **** area, and the entire show was more focused on wrestling rather than whetehr Austin could win the title. You didn't have any interference, you didn't have promos that were longer than a couple minutes. Road to the Title and Deadly Game both had a World Title Tournament, and it just so happens that the ROH shit all over the WWF one.

[The Decemberists 0]

Yes... but I'd imagine the WWF may have drawn a little bit more money, which, y'know, is the whole point

[Guest Andrew J.]

Well then next time specify when you want to talk about all fucking Indy Wrestling rather than the top federations. Its a complete no-brainer to say that a hick fed that 5 people turn up to watch is better than WWE, and I'd be an idiot to try and argue that case, so I'm not. I'm arguing for the bigger Indy feds, ROH, IWA:MS, PWG, etc. The other day I was told that after a World Title match, Jimmy Jacobs wrestled an 'impromptu' 65 minute 8 man elimination tag match. Now seriously, how many WWE wrestlers would have the balls or the fucking endurance to work that kind of night?

 

The question is: Why Is INDY WRESTLING so much better than WWE? Well that's easy. Indy WRESTLING is WRESTLING. WWE is SPORTS ENTERTAINMENT. WWE will NEVER BE absolute wrestling. Wrestling alone doesn't sell to the wider market. To us, to fans of WRESTLING, Indy feds will always shit all over WWE for the simple fact that Indies focus on Wrestling, not a bunch of softcore pornstars parading in bikinis, or a 25 minute promo about how good someone is. Indies will always cater to wrestling fans, because they don't have any intention of becoming a multi-million dollar company. A comparison: WWF Survivor Series 1998, the Deadly Game Tournament. You had Rock, HHH, Mankind, Austin, Taker, Kane, the list goes on. But out of all those matches, I can only really remember that Mankind-Austin was ok, and thats about it.

 

Now, Ring of Honor's fourth show: Road to the Title. You had AJ Styles, Low Ki, Daniels, Lynn, Dragon, Spanky, Red, Doug Williams, Jody Fleisch, Jonny Storm, Paul London and a few others. I dare you to put AJ Styles vs. Jerry Lynn, AJ Styles vs. Christopher Daneils, and Spanky vs. Paul London up against any of the matches from SurSer and tell me that they are a better wrestling match. Bullshit. Both Styles matches were around the **** area, and the entire show was more focused on wrestling rather than whetehr Austin could win the title. You didn't have any interference, you didn't have promos that were longer than a couple minutes. Road to the Title and Deadly Game both had a World Title Tournament, and it just so happens that the ROH shit all over the WWF one.

How long was Jacobs in that match, and how active was he in it? It's impossible to make judgments about his endurance without knowing if he stayed on the apron a lot or got eliminated 5 minute in or wrestled a great deal or lasted until the end.

 

Indy wrestling is also sports entertainment, and you're kidding yourself if you think otherwise. Pure athleticism is rather boring by itself, that's why there's no big market for amateurs, that's why football games have cheerleaders. Homicide's riots, the over the top entrances (as over the top as you can get on an indy budget, anyway) of Punk, Corino, Colt Cabana and Austin Aries, the whole Mick Foley/Samoa Joe feud, the Embassy cheating more blatantly than Team Canada in TNA...don't tell me that ROH doesn't do sports entertainment, because I don't like being fucking lied to.

 

The ROH tournament you mentioned puts on wrestling matches that you, personally, find more entertaining, but if given the choice, I would probably rather watch the SurSer 1998 show. I've never seen it before, although I've read about it, and IIRC that's where the screwjob was reenacted and the Rock started on the road to becoming a great heel champion. It's historically important and involves characters I've come to know and be familiar with, so it would mean more to me.

 

Don't make your personal preferences into absolute statements of quality, punk.

[Adam 0]

They aren't just my personal preferences, they are others' too. I like your nickname for me, punk, by the way, quite a nice one. Let's just settle it at this: I like Indy Wrestling. I have told you why I think indy wrestling is better than WWE wrestling. You disagree. That's fine. I disagree with your statements. Opinons are like assholes you know. Anyone who says that they enjoyed Deadly Game more than road to the Title isn't the same kind of wrestling fan that I am. Thats fine too. Watch whatever you want, doesn't effect me. I'm simply stating what I believe to be the truth.

 

Andrew J, Jacobs was in the match for the whole 65 minutes, not 100% sure if he won it or was the last man to be pinned, but I know he was one of the last two men remaining. And Ring of Honor got over on the first show soley because of Eddie Guerrero being on the card, as well as the strength of the Main Event (Daneils-Dragon-Ki), which was, and still is, one of my favourite matches ever to watch.

 

Oh, and Decemberists, the question was not about money, it was about the product. Why is Indy Wrestling better than WWE. WWE have made Billions more than all the indy feds combined, but I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about why Indy Wrestling is better (Adnrew, let me insert these words for you so you don't have another cry about it: IN MY OPINION).

[The Decemberists 0]

I'd fully agree with you that the ROH tournament was far, far better than the WWF in terms of in ring match quality.

 

I was just saying that the whole point of pro wrestling is to make money, not nessasarilly to have great matches. So from that I'd say that the WWF is 'better' than the Indies as they make more money. But that's just me being a pedantic bastard.

[bob_barron 0]

They aren't just my personal preferences, they are others' too. I like your nickname for me, punk, by the way, quite a nice one. Let's just settle it at this: I like Indy Wrestling. I have told you why I think indy wrestling is better than WWE wrestling. You disagree. That's fine. I disagree with your statements. Opinons are like assholes you know. Anyone who says that they enjoyed Deadly Game more than road to the Title isn't the same kind of wrestling fan that I am. Thats fine too. Watch whatever you want, doesn't effect me. I'm simply stating what I believe to be the truth.

 

Andrew J, Jacobs was in the match for the whole 65 minutes, not 100% sure if he won it or was the last man to be pinned, but I know he was one of the last two men remaining. And Ring of Honor got over on the first show soley because of Eddie Guerrero being on the card, as well as the strength of the Main Event (Daneils-Dragon-Ki), which was, and still is, one of my favourite matches ever to watch.

 

Oh, and Decemberists, the question was not about money, it was about the product. Why is Indy Wrestling better than WWE. WWE have made Billions more than all the indy feds combined, but I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about why Indy Wrestling is better (Adnrew, let me insert these words for you so you don't have another cry about it: IN MY OPINION).

No, you're saying that the TOP indy feds are better then WWE, not indy wrestling is better then WWE.

 

And you're comparing a WWF show from 1998 to an ROH show in 2002- that's not a very valid comparison.

 

ROH isn't all about wrestling either. Someone pointed this out, but what do you call the stuff with the Rottweilers? Or the Carnage Crew's garbage matches? The Foley v. Steamboat feud? I love ROH to death, but to say they're all about wrestling is inaccurate.

[thecitythesky 0]

Well then next time specify when you want to talk about all fucking Indy Wrestling rather than the top federations. Its a complete no-brainer to say that a hick fed that 5 people turn up to watch is better than WWE, and I'd be an idiot to try and argue that case, so I'm not. I'm arguing for the bigger Indy feds...

Let's just settle it at this: I like Indy Wrestling. I have told you why I think indy wrestling is better than WWE wrestling.

 

*

 

You should make up your mind. Either you're positing that INDY WRESTLING as a whole is better than WWE, in which case, you're misguided (as you so readily admit). Or you're saying that the TOP FEDS are better than WWE in their high end output (which also bothers me. Since ROH, as a whole, isn't terribly consistant, or even good, while their best matches (which do occur more frequently than WWE's high end stuff) clearly outclass the stuff Vince is putting out); in which case, I don't think that anyone's going to violently disagree with you. However, you keep flipping back and forth from arguing one side or the other. In one case you, as you admit, can't possibly stand by what you're saying (you know, like the thread title). And on the other, you're saying something that few would even see the need to discuss.

[Jingus 0]

Recently, I'd much rather watch Raw than almost any indy show in existence. Plain and simple, the WWE can afford to sign whoever they want and that leads to them having the best roster in the country. Does even ROH have a group of guys that can compare overall to Benoit, Angle, Guerrero, Misterio, Michaels, HHH, Jericho, Taker, RVD, so on and so forth? I don't think so. Hell, even Bradshaw was a better heavyweight champion than Xavier.

[Mystery Eskimo 0]

Does even ROH have a group of guys that can compare overall to Benoit, Angle, Guerrero, Misterio, Michaels, HHH, Jericho, Taker, RVD, so on and so forth? I don't think so.

I'd rather watch a Joe, Gibson, Danielson, Punk, Aries or Shelley match than any of those guys do the same things over and over again.

 

It's a little pointless even making the comparison though. All a matter of taste, as boring as that is to say.

[Phoenix Fury Legdrop 0]

Recently, I'd much rather watch Raw than almost any indy show in existence. Plain and simple, the WWE can afford to sign whoever they want and that leads to them having the best roster in the country. Does even ROH have a group of guys that can compare overall to Benoit, Angle, Guerrero, Misterio, Michaels, HHH, Jericho, Taker, RVD, so on and so forth? I don't think so. Hell, even Bradshaw was a better heavyweight champion than Xavier.

I'd update the ROH Champions' reference there...

[Jingus 0]

Well, he's the worst one they had, so he's always my go-to joke whenever I wanna mock ROH. More recently, uh, well, John Walters as Pure Wrestling Champion I guess. Never understood the appeal of the guy, or really any of the former Special K crew who apparently stopped doing drugs and wrestle under their real names now.

[Guest OSIcon]

Hell, even Bradshaw was a better heavyweight champion than Xavier.

That's true, but it really isn't a dig at the talent of Xavier.

[Jingus 0]

Honestly, I've only seen one or two of the guy's matches, and it's been a while since I watched 'em. I heard he sucked long before I ever got any tapes of him, so any time he showed up it automatically equalled fast-forward. I can't even remember what he looks like. I just drop Xavier's name for the cheap heat it provides.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Xavier's got a bad rep only because the push he got in ROH in 2002 wasn't commensurate with his ability. He wasn't bad by any means, and was actually really solid in the ring. The problem was that to be at the top in ROH required either a certain level of talent or a certain aura, and Xavier had neither the talent nor aura to be accepted in the position he was put in.

[Mystery Eskimo 0]

Never understood the appeal of the guy, or really any of the former Special K crew who apparently stopped doing drugs and wrestle under their real names now.

Jay Lethal is the exception there.

 

Xavier grew on me once he dropped the title. He had some really nice offence.

[bob_barron 0]

Honestly, I've only seen one or two of the guy's matches, and it's been a while since I watched 'em. I heard he sucked long before I ever got any tapes of him, so any time he showed up it automatically equalled fast-forward. I can't even remember what he looks like. I just drop Xavier's name for the cheap heat it provides.

Xavier jokes went out about two years ago. I mean really.

 

Calling him the worst ROH Champion when there's only been 4 really isn't that big of an insult. I thought he did well in his role.

[bob_barron 0]

Never understood the appeal of the guy, or really any of the former Special K crew who apparently stopped doing drugs and wrestle under their real names now.

Jay Lethal and Azarel are both really good in the ring. You don't see in the appeal in Lethal?

[Guest Brian]

You can look at a question this way: Could Benoit/Regal at the Pillman Memorial Show have been as good if it occured in the WWE?

 

And then you have to analyze things like what are the limitations of the style WWE wrestlers work, the limits on their moves, and so on. And then compare that to the free reign they could have as indy workers.