Ring of Honor 6.18.05 "Death Before Dishonor 3"

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

Whom he would likely repackage as someone that's not meant to draw.

[Guest BrokenWings]

Really now? Because I am sick of reading that Bret would never do that but despite all the assurances VKM still had fits. All it takes is VKM to get out his chequebook and say CMP, how much is going to cost you to shit on the ROH title. You think that is beyond VKM? It wasnt beyond WCW. Youd be surprised what people can do when money is on the table. I dont think he would but... ROH is known by fans alot more than you think.

 

And Punk wouldn't be bought out like that. He's ran their training camp, has been there for a long time, helps with booking, etc. Punk's a traditionalist, and he wouldn't let the company he's worked so hard to help achieve success be shit upon, even if Vince wanted to be the asshole you've made him out to seem.

[Adam 0]

zyn really needs to cut the conspiricy crap and gain some perspective on the food chain of North American companies. If anything, McMahon would want ROH to keep running much like ECW did, because its a damn good breeding ground, and its good for wrestling. Shit, you REALLY think that Vince would go out of his way to bury a freaking Indy title? I could understand it if it was the NWA Title, but not ROH. Jeez.

[zyn081 0]

Sorry for 'offending' your product boys and playing devils advocate.

[bob_barron 0]

You didn't offend anyone. You just made very weak points, and you had a pretty bad argument.

[zyn081 0]

You didn't offend anyone. You just made very weak points, and you had a pretty bad argument.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Normally, a bad argument is based on bad points, so what your saying is a misnomener.

 

Just pointing out possible side-effects, regardless of how remote they are.

 

I dont agree with the booking. I would have preferred it if they would have done it the other way round. I am worried that it has possibly exposed ROH.

[bob_barron 0]

I am worried that it has possibly exposed ROH.

 

Exposed them to what exactly?

[zyn081 0]

I am worried that it has possibly exposed ROH.

 

Exposed them to what exactly?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I just have a bad gut feeling about how this will pan out. IMHO I feel as if ROH are losing out on a bit of ground, what with losing CMP, Am Drag and possibly seeing less of Joe. These were ROH staples. TNA can tie the screws in on AJ and Daniels.

Despite the 2 fights with CMP and his degrading health, I cant help but feeling that this angle is rushed.

 

If VKM does pump money into ROH it will be done so without consideration of the promotion or its fans, but what VKM can get out of it. Dont believe the bull shit that he spewed on RAW, when he was in the ring with Bischoff and Heyman. Hes a control freak. Dont be blind.

[King Cucaracha 0]

If Foley didn't work there do you think Vince would even know what Ring Of Honor WAS?

[Slingshot Suplex 0]

If Foley didn't work there do you think Vince would even know what Ring Of Honor WAS?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Vince might not always know what the fans want but I'd be shocked if he , at least, didn't have people who kept him aware of the indy scene in the US. I would guess he's known about ROH for a while.

[King Cucaracha 0]

Hmm, I suppose so.

[Dangerous A 0]

Vince knows who ROH is. He probrably hasn't watched a full show or even a full match, but he knows about them. They have at least a mutual understanding of who is who and what is what. Go to the ROH website and you will see WWE shit sold there. If there was any bad blood between them like TNA, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be able to buy official WWE items and such.

 

I think Vince lets them do what they do. As long as they don't get ahead of themselves or try to position themselves to become a real threat or competition, he probrably doesn't mind them existing.

[Nevermortal 0]

If anyone thinks that WWE would let Punk on their TV to trash the ROH title, they're a moron. The casual WWE audience couldn't give two shits about Gabe Sapolsky's little promotion that could.

[Youth N Asia 0]

It would not benifit the WWE one bit to do anything ROH related on their TV shows, all it would do it inform everyone out there about another promotion...the WWE wouldn't do that

[Slingshot Suplex 0]

It would not benifit the WWE one bit to do anything ROH related on their TV shows, all it would do it inform everyone out there about another promotion...the WWE wouldn't do that

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

They did it with ECW back in 97. They did it with SMW I think too.

 

Dangerous A is right. As long as ROH doesn't carve into his spot in the wrestling world, Vince probably doesn't mind them. I could even see Vince trying to do something with ROH to bring in part of their fanbase....as crazy as that sounds.

[Youth N Asia 0]

Vince worked with ECW though, unless he's going to do business with ROH I doubt we'll ever see them mentioned on their tv

[Toshiaki Koala 0]

People really need to get a sense of perspective on this. If the ROH title appeared on WWE TV, 95% of the people watching would scratch their heads vacantly and think "What the hell is that?" Of course ROH puts out a better product, but that doesn't mean most wrestling fans are aware of its existence.

[zyn081 0]

I like the way people say only 5% of the WWE's fanbase will know about ROH. ROH is the best promotion in the US. It is wrestling, not sports entertainment rubbish that is stuffed down people's throat. It really baffles me how people cant see how poor the WWE's product is and that more viable alternatives do exist.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

I like the way people say only 5% of the WWE's fanbase will know about ROH. ROH is the best promotion in the US. It is wrestling, not sports entertainment rubbish that is stuffed down people's throat. It really baffles me how people cant see how poor the WWE's product is and that more viable alternatives do exist.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I like the way people say only 5% of the WWE's fanbase will know about ROH.

Because it's the truth. And even that figure might be generous.

 

ROH is the best promotion in the US.

 

That's open to debate, but a case can be made for them.

 

It is wrestling, not sports entertainment rubbish that is stuffed down people's throat.

 

And that has relevance, how?

 

It really baffles me how people cant see how poor the WWE's product is and that more viable alternatives do exist.

 

I think pretty much everyone knows how bad WWE is. And viable alternatives don't mean much if very few people know about them.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

At this point, I think the casual fans wouldn't want to pay money on wrestling right away, like they would have to do with RoH. They would prefer watching something free like Raw/SD, then if something appeals to them, pay for the PPVs. Wrestling is just not hot enough right now for RoH to exist as a viable alternative.

[zyn081 0]

I like the way people say only 5% of the WWE's fanbase will know about ROH.

Because it's the truth. And even that figure might be generous.

 

ROH is the best promotion in the US.

 

That's open to debate, but a case can be made for them.

 

It is wrestling, not sports entertainment rubbish that is stuffed down people's throat.

 

And that has relevance, how?

 

It really baffles me how people cant see how poor the WWE's product is and that more viable alternatives do exist.

 

I think pretty much everyone knows how bad WWE is. And viable alternatives don't mean much if very few people know about them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So this figure is just invented then. ^o)

 

Open to debate? Who else is viable on a prolonged basis please?

 

Its relevant because at the end of the day, the product was, is and should always be wrestling and not sports entertainment. I find it very hard to overcome the what is sports entertainment arguement back home when im trying to defend wrestling as a professional sport.

 

Granted, but it should be looked into to determine how more people can get to know about it.

 

At this point, I think the casual fans wouldn't want to pay money on wrestling right away, like they would have to do with RoH. They would prefer watching something free like Raw/SD, then if something appeals to them, pay for the PPVs. Wrestling is just not hot enough right now for RoH to exist as a viable alternative.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Wrestling is going through a 'recession'. But if marketed well, a product can still be sold in such times.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

I like the way people say only 5% of the WWE's fanbase will know about ROH.

Because it's the truth. And even that figure might be generous.

 

ROH is the best promotion in the US.

 

That's open to debate, but a case can be made for them.

 

It is wrestling, not sports entertainment rubbish that is stuffed down people's throat.

 

And that has relevance, how?

 

It really baffles me how people cant see how poor the WWE's product is and that more viable alternatives do exist.

 

I think pretty much everyone knows how bad WWE is. And viable alternatives don't mean much if very few people know about them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So this figure is just invented then. ^o)

 

Open to debate? Who else is viable on a prolonged basis please?

 

Its relevant because at the end of the day, the product was, is and should always be wrestling and not sports entertainment. I find it very hard to overcome the what is sports entertainment arguement back home when im trying to defend wrestling as a professional sport.

 

Granted, but it should be looked into to determine how more people can get to know about it.

 

At this point, I think the casual fans wouldn't want to pay money on wrestling right away, like they would have to do with RoH. They would prefer watching something free like Raw/SD, then if something appeals to them, pay for the PPVs. Wrestling is just not hot enough right now for RoH to exist as a viable alternative.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Wrestling is going through a 'recession'. But if marketed well, a product can still be sold in such times.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So this figure is just invented then. ^o)

 

It's called an educated guess. Try it sometime.

 

Open to debate? Who else is viable on a prolonged basis please?

 

For an Indy group, ROH are probably as viable as any of the rest. For a true alternative to WWE, in terms of one day being competition, they aren't viable without growing considerably bigger than they are now. For small fish, they're doing fine how are they now.

 

Its relevant because at the end of the day, the product was, is and should always be wrestling and not sports entertainment.

 

A pure wrestling product just would not work in the US. It has to be a mix of wrestling and soap opera-type stuff, just not the kind of stuff that is so bad it turns off the audience for whatever reason. I'll be the first to say that the non-wrestling aspects of WWE range from poor to downright hideous, but it needs those elements to survive and thrive in the US.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

Which RoH isn't doing. What they seem to be doing is depending on the word of mouth to sell their product. "Hey I went to this RoH show. It was awesome! I think I should go order their DVDs!"

 

"Really? Maybe I should too...."

 

That's not a good business model for a company that you are saying is a "viable alternative" to the majority of the fans. They need to see proof of the shows before shelling out 20 bucks or whatever on DVDs. I ordered two RoH DVDs and they were great, so that's how I got into RoH, but I find it hard to continue following the promotion because you know, money doesn't grow on trees so I can't continually shell out the money for every event just to follow the storylines and such. Considering I'm what some would call a "hardcore" fan, as in I try to stay involved in wrestling, if I have difficulty doing it with RoH, I can't imagine the casual fans doing it at all. When RoH somehow finds a different avenue of advertising their shows, like TV (which I think they aren't ready for to a degree), then I think the fanbase would grow beyond the typical and same RoH crowd.

 

 

Edit: This is directed to zyn081, not HTQ.

[zyn081 0]

Which RoH isn't doing. What they seem to be doing is depending on the word of mouth to sell their product. "Hey I went to this RoH show. It was awesome! I think I should go order their DVDs!"

 

"Really? Maybe I should too...."

 

That's not a good business model for a company that you are saying is a "viable alternative" to the majority of the fans. They need to see proof of the shows before shelling out 20 bucks or whatever on DVDs. I ordered two RoH DVDs and they were great, so that's how I got into RoH, but I find it hard to continue following the promotion because you know, money doesn't grow on trees so I can't continually shell out the money for every event just to follow the storylines and such. Considering I'm what some would call a "hardcore" fan, as in I try to stay involved in wrestling, if I have difficulty doing it with RoH, I can't imagine the casual fans doing it at all. When RoH somehow finds a different avenue of advertising their shows, like TV (which I think they aren't ready for to a degree), then I think the fanbase would grow beyond the typical and same RoH crowd.

 

 

Edit: This is directed to zyn081, not HTQ.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I realised that. At least you kind of see my point.

[zyn081 0]

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

They just need to have simple basic storylines, because those are the ones that actually draws the fans in.

[zyn081 0]

They just need to have simple basic storylines, because those are the ones that actually draws the fans in.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, and that is the stories that brings the marks in, which result in increased sales, if marketed correctly.

 

IMHO, this angle will just confuse marks and possibly turn them away.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

That's the thing, they just cater to their own fans. They know those fans are the only ones who would "get" it.

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

I would guess that about 10% of the WWEs fans know of RoH.

 

RoH > WWE.

 

But that has NOTHING and I can't stress this enough NOTHING to do with size of business.

 

A million homes bought WrestleMania this year. A million.

 

A million different PEOPLE haven't bought an RoH tape or been to a show in their 3+ year history...or even close for that matter.

 

What's good isn't what sells. What sells is what sells. Understanding that is the key to business that has kept WWE on top for so long.

[zyn081 0]

That's the thing, they just cater to their own fans. They know those fans are the only ones who would "get" it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, and thats a real great way to attract people isnt it.

 

I would guess that about 10% of the WWEs fans know of RoH.

 

RoH > WWE.

 

But that has NOTHING and I can't stress this enough NOTHING to do with size of business.

 

A million homes bought WrestleMania this year.  A million.

 

A million different PEOPLE haven't bought an RoH tape or been to a show in their 3+ year history...or even close for that matter.

 

What's good isn't what sells.  What sells is what sells.  Understanding that is the key to business that has kept WWE on top for so long.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Size is relative, thats why I questionned where all these %s were coming from. It seens like you can just pick a number between 5 and 10. How about 8.39? Wait, somebody just died, another moved, a 3rd bought a satelitte dish, a new member joined this forum, . . . make it 8.47 then.

 

bps and porter are right though. You can only sell the sellable. ROH fanboys (I of which, wonders of wonders, surprisingly am one of them. And before you ask, I dont post often on ROH because I have to PAY FOR MY VIEWING of their SHOWS, which I get god knows how many months down the line) may be saying who gives a f whether they sell or not or attract people or not, but if that is not the goal of ROH, what the hell are they in business for?

 

To draw a parellel to the computer games industry, Baldur's Gate, Thief, System Shock, Homeworld, Hidden and Dangerous, etc... are all critically acclaimed games, that have achieved much praise from reviewers in the industry BUT they didnt sell, because every man and his dog prefers to stay controlling the live of a computerised person and buying all the 1001 addons that are produced for it. Take Looking Glass Studios, they developed the highly acclaimed System Shock and Thief. They didnt sell. Looking Glass Studios WENT OUT OF BUSINESS. Look at Ion Storm Austin, developed Deus Ex and Thief 2 and 3. They didnt sell. Ion Storm Austin WENT OUT OF BUSINESS. Look at Baldur's Gate. Solely responsible for making the RPG a cool type of game again. Many games claimed to have RPG elements after that. It can offer an estimated 1,000 hours of gameplay and the story rivals Lord of the Rings, but its not 3D, so it didnt sell as much as did. The result, legal battles between Bioware, Black Isle Studies, Interplay, Vivendi, Dungeons and Dragons and Tales of the Sword Coast. Black Isle Studies are practically inactive, Vivendi arent doing so hot and god knows what happened to Interplay. One of the many reasons WCW went under: IT DIDNT SELL AS MUCH AS IT SHOULD HAVE. Way to go ROH, run an angle that only the 'insiders' get.