WON MMA HOF

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Taken from Otherarena.

 

From Todd Martin over at WCMB (post directly linked below):

"And the list for the new separate Wrestling Observer Newsletter MMA Hall of Fame. The criteria are being a great fighter as well as having historical significance. Same percentages needed for inclusion as the other Hall, with only six votes allowed for fighters.

 

FIGHTERS

 

Tank Abbott

Mark Coleman

Randy Couture

Don Frye

Masakatsu Funaki

Rickson Gracie

Royce Gracie

Bas Rutten

Kazushi Sakuraba

Dan Severn

Frank Shamrock

Ken Shamrock

Maurice Smith

 

MANAGEMENT/HISTORICAL

 

Rorion Gracie (creator of UFC)

Antonio Inoki (creator of NJPW)

Kazuyoshi Ishii (creator of K1)

Satoru Sayama (creator of SHOOTO)

[AboveAverage484 0]

I figured if Ishii was included, Hoost, Aerts, and Hug would be as well.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Yeah. You either consider K-1 MMA, or consider EVERY OTHER INFLUENCIAL MARTIAL ART CREATOR, or don't consider it at all. Why not boxing? Why not Judo? TKD? Karate? Certainly, why not Brazilian Jiu Jitsu? Why not Trapfighting, SAFTA, RIP, Pitfighting, and Joe Son Do?

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

FIGHTERS

Tank Abbott - No.

Mark Coleman - UFC HW Champion. 2x UFC Tournament Champion. 2000 PRIDE Grand Prix Champion. Created/Popularized

"Ground and Pound". Definitely.

 

Randy Couture - Classic fights against Belfort, Rizzo, and Liddell, and he is the only person to win titles in 2 divisions. One of the most popular fighters ever. Featured on Ultimate Fighter, which gained big exposure (relative to the previous 10 years) in the US. I initially thought "no" because he is still fighting, but looking at his resume, he belongs. Also voted most popular fighter by UFC fans.

 

Don Frye - No.

 

Masakatsu Funaki - Pancrase helped mold MMA and he was the top star and helped develop guys like Bas Rutten, Frank Shamrock, and Ken Shamrock. I am not entirely comfortable with him as a pick into the MMA HOF as a fighter, I'd rather him as a historical/influencial figure, as I have no idea how many of his fights were worked or not. I'll say "yes" because of the pancrase influence and his influence on pancrase, but that's it.

 

Rickson Gracie - He helped PRIDE become successful in its formative years but hasn't really done anything other than that in modern MMA. Had he faced Sakuraba and they drew a huge house, it would be harder to say "no", but he didn't, so it's pretty easy. No.

 

Royce Gracie - Of fucking course. 3x UFC champion, 90 minute fight with Sakuraba, the most influencial fighter ever.

 

Bas Rutten - King of Pancrase, UFC champion, tremendous fights against Frank Shamrock and Funaki, great trainer, great commentator, under the Meltzer criteria a "yes" just because "it feels like he's a HOFer" but compared to his contemporaries he doesn't really match up. He was UFC champ when UFC was going into its dark days, he was active in pancrase when they were working bouts, and he was a primarily panrcase fighter. A "maybe".

 

Kazushi Sakuraba - Yes. Next to Royce Gracie, THE HOF pick. Hugely influencial in his fighting style, defeated 4 Gracies, PRIDE is as popular as it is today because of Sak, GREAT fights against White, Newton, Gracie(s), Jackson.

 

Dan Severn - UFC tournament champ. Ultimate Ultimate champ, Superfight/HW champ. Very prolific fighter, nearing 90 fights and still going at 50, UFC HOFer. The first successful "wrestler" in the UFC. He hasn't accomplished as much as his peers, but I think he has done enough. Yes.

 

Frank Shamrock - One of the greatest fighters of all time. Great matches against Lober, Rutten, Horn, Ortiz. IMO, the first "complete" fighter in MMA, as he not only had the physical and well-rounded fighting skills, but he had the mental side of it as well. I think the Alliance was one of the most influencial groups out there as it put the focus on cross-training and Frank himself is a very good trainer. UFC MW champion. On this list, I think he's the only one who gets a "yes" based on how _good_ he was in the ring/cage, rather than the "other" factors.

 

Ken Shamrock - to me, this is a tough one. I don't like Ken, at all. He never won a UFC tournament, yet SEG still essentially gave him the belt. He was part of 2 of the most boring fights in MMA history (vs. Royce, vs. Severn) which IMO does it a lot of damage. However, his fight against Tito was a big draw, and he headlined the biggest show in UFC history a few months ago vs. Rich Franklin. He headed-up the Lions Den, which -at their peak- was a huge fighting team. Most would say he's a slam dunk, but it's a hard pick for me. He was never a top fighter, IMO. Outside of Panrcase, his record isn't good. He hasn't really beaten any "top" fighters except for Dan Severn. I think his influence is primarily in the Lions Den and his own personal "look" as a fighter. Great draw, nothing else otherwise. Borderline "yes".

 

Maurice Smith - his fight against Mark Coleman, IMO, was the first great showing of cross-training in MMA history. UFC HW champ, great trainer, and a member of the Alliance. Where Ken was a draw and nothing else, I think Mo is influence and nothing else. He was a top fighter for about 6 months and then his time passed. I want to say yes, but I'll say "no".

 

MANAGEMENT/HISTORICAL

Rorion Gracie - Yes. Helped form the UFC. Of course.

 

Antonio Inoki - him vs. Ali, I guess, gets points. He tried to popularize the more "real" aspects of wrestling, the Bom Ba Yae was a big card for a few years, he pushed "shoot" fighters in wrestling roles which may have helped popularize MMA in Japan. Someone more knowledgable than me should map out his influence. I dunno.

 

Kazuyoshi Ishii - basically created K-1, which had a strong impact on MMA. But if he's in, then why wouldn't all creators of influencial martial arts be in?? Is Kickboxing now MMA? It was said to be a "mix" of stand-up fighting, so do we consider K-1 to be MMA and kickboxers to be MMA fighters? Where is Andy Hug on this list???

 

Satoru Sayama - helped create the original UWF in Japan and SHOOTO. SHOOTO is the best organization for lighter fighters, who are starting to rise in PRIDE's Bushido. Though SHOOTO is not as popular as PRIDE or UFC, I think he deserves to get in. Yes.

[Vern Gagne 0]

That seems like alot of guys for the first class.

[razazteca 0]

If K-1 is MMA then Bob Sapp should be on the list.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

I dunno if Sapp is old enough to be considered on the list. Was he in the WON PW HOF? I figure Meltzer would be pushing for him if he was eligible.

[AboveAverage484 0]

I would definitely include Frye, over Severn at least.

[iggymcfly 0]

I don't consider myself anywhere near enough of an authority on MMA to go up and down the list and decide who should be in and who shouldn't, but really, I don't see how can you justify putting Couture in right now.

 

It seems to me like the whole purpose of a hall of fame is to grow as more people accomplish things in a given sport, so that you can recognize the people who were the best. If you induct guys now that are still at their peak, who are you going to be inducting five to ten years down the road?

[Guest Brian]

I think for MMA, they should use standards of induction similar to pro sports (five years out) rather than closer to Meltzer's standards for pro-wrestlers.

[Guest Big_Jay101]

Even if Couture is fighting he still deserves to get in, 2X HW champ and dominated the LHW division while being the champ for the past three years, while his record is 13-7 he has only fought the who's who in mixed martial arts and his losses came to good opponents.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Frye is a UFC tournament champion, and an Ultimate Ultimate champion. But, really, who has he beaten? If you look at his record, you see a lot of "names" - Taktarov, Shamrock, Goodridge, Yvel - but those names aren't good fighters. Severn at least has a lengthy record to look at which IMO put him over the top. Frye doesn't even have 20 fights. I don't really see Fryes influence in MMA and he was a top fighter for a few months. I believe he had a strong drawing period, but I personally don't see that as being enough to put him in.

 

Couture has done enough, especially in relation to his contemporaries, to put him in the HOF. There has been plenty of discussion on the value of the WON MMA HOF, since MMA is still -really- in its developing stages. Royce Gracie still fights, for crying out-loud. Rather than discussing the merits of a MMA HOF, I'd rather discuss the merits of its fighters. IMO, that's more productive and makes for better chit chat.

[AboveAverage484 0]

Frye is a UFC tournament champion, and an Ultimate Ultimate champion.  But, really, who has he beaten?  If you look at his record, you see a lot of "names" - Taktarov, Shamrock, Goodridge, Yvel - but those names aren't good fighters.  Severn at least has a lengthy record to look at which IMO put him over the top.  Frye doesn't even have 20 fights.  I don't really see Fryes influence in MMA and he was a top fighter for a few months.  I believe he had a strong drawing period, but I personally don't see that as being enough to put him in.

 

Couture has done enough, especially in relation to his contemporaries, to put him in the HOF.  There has been plenty of discussion on the value of the WON MMA HOF, since MMA is still -really- in its developing stages.  Royce Gracie still fights, for crying out-loud.  Rather than discussing the merits of a MMA HOF, I'd rather discuss the merits of its fighters.  IMO, that's more productive and makes for better chit chat.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Taktarov, Shamrock, Goodridge, and Yvel are good fighters, not "great" but good. Besides, Severn has pretty much the same resume; Taktarov, Shamrock, and Tank being his big wins. Frye was way more well rounded, way more exciting, and he was way more influential than Severn. Respect is due to Severn for fighting at fifty fucking years old.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Severn was the first successful amateur wrestler in MMA and one could say opened the doors for amateur wrestlers. He is a 2x tournament champ, a superfight/hw champ. Severn goes around the country as the top star for many small shows. Was Frye a better fighter? Yeah, probably. But did he *do* the same amount of stuff Severn did? No. Actually, I don't think an arguement could be made that Frye ever beat a top 10 fighter, even at the time.

[AboveAverage484 0]

Ok, here's my MMA Hall of Fame nominees:

 

Sakuraba

Rutten

Royce Gracie

Couture

Frank Shamrock

Ken Shamrock

Fedor

Nogueira

Wanderlei

Vovchanchyn

Coleman

Funaki

B.J. Penn

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

How many can you have??

 

BJ Penn and Fedor are interesting picks. I am assuming it's based on quality of fighter rather than "other".

[Lei Tong 0]

- Frye never fought Taktarov

 

- Vovchanchyn never defeated a Top Ten opponent outside of Mark Kerr

 

- Maeda deserves mention in the non-combative section

 

- Inoki's influence on MMA is very debatable. Theoretically he's as influential as anybody, but pretty much every other big-name, behind-the-scenes guy has made more easily recognizable contributions to the sport.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Vovchanchyn was a bit of a question mark for me as well. He did very well in NHB tournaments, perhaps one of the most successful fighters in the more "unrefined" time in MMA history, despite not facing top competition. Certainly one of the more popular and likable fighters in PRIDE's early days.

[Lei Tong 0]

In skill, accomplishments and name value, Igor falls short. Nowhere near HOF material, IMO. he sticks out like a sore thumb even amongst weaker candidates like Funaki, Smith & Frye.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Yeah, he lacks the impact. But one has to wonder how he would do in the UFC during his (and their) early days. I know that potential isn't enough, but the guy won 5 or 6 tournaments in 2 years and was probably one of the best (or at least most effective) strikers in the world for a long period of time. He has been very prolific in PRIDE. Next to Shoji and Silva, he's probably been in the most events.

 

I don't think he should get in, but I think he's worth some consideration and debate.

[AboveAverage484 0]

- Frye never fought Taktarov

 

- Vovchanchyn never defeated a Top Ten opponent outside of Mark Kerr

 

- Maeda deserves mention in the non-combative section

 

- Inoki's influence on MMA is very debatable. Theoretically he's as influential as anybody, but pretty much every other big-name, behind-the-scenes guy has made more easily recognizable contributions to the sport.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Forgot all about Maeda, VERY influential, moreso than Takada, IMO.

 

Isn't Kondo a top ten fighter? Still, that would only be two fighters but Igor is one of those people whose record doesn't necessarily affect his impact on the sport, IMO. Him and Sakuraba have the two biggest permanent bandwagons in MMA, and he's one of the most beloved fighters in MMA history. Everybody likes Igor.

[Lei Tong 0]

Kondo isn't a Top Ten fighter. He may have cracked the LHW ranks with his wins over Kikuta & Sperry, but fell soon thereafter. He could potentially be a Top Ten MW if he ever decided to drop, but he refuses, so it's a moot point.

[Dangerous A 0]

I'll add my 2 cents to the guys from RRR's original posting list...

 

 

 

Tank Abbott-If being a big draw is criteria , I guess. That is all he has going for him. Other than that, he's a no for me.

Mark Coleman-Definitely. Ground and Pound's godfather.

Randy Couture-For sure.

Don Frye-Very controverial, even more so than Igor IMO. He's borderline right now with me tilting towards no.

Masakatsu Funaki-For now, I'd have to say no.

Rickson Gracie-If we are going only on UFC and Pride stuff, it'd be no, but since I know a lot about him, he's a yes for me. It's too bad he didn't fight in the more mainstream promotions.

Royce Gracie-Definite yes.

Bas Rutten-Gotta say no, but he's a great commentator.

Kazushi Sakuraba-Yes

Dan Severn-Yes

Frank Shamrock-No

Ken Shamrock-Yes, but there is an argument against and I have a bias for him.

Maurice Smith-No

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

If you make one pick this year, make it this one:

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

Okay, the real answers.

 

FIGHTERS

 

Tank Abbott - No, really popular fighter who was a player in the early days, and first successful street fighter in the old days, but still no tournament wins, even in his time, makes it hard.

Mark Coleman - Definitely for all the reasons already stated.

Randy Couture - Ditto.

Don Frye - One of the first guys to really cross train in the early days, huge draw in Japan, and a few big tournament wins makes him a yes. Though I can understand why people would say no since he stuck around way longer than he should have.

Masakatsu Funaki - Ehhhh, I'm not big on worked fights, but this guy was a big name. I don't know alot, but knowing what I know, no.

Rickson Gracie - No, too afraid of hurting his image in taking the two biggest fights offered to him (Sak and Bas, not to mention countless others) so easy decision. Jiu Jitsu God, not really big in MMA.

Royce Gracie - of course

Bas Rutten - Has the bad luck of being popular in a dark time in the UFC, as well as having the two main fights he wanted backfire because of the other person (aforementioned Rickson and Frank) but the guy was a very well-rounded fighter near the end of his career, and is a prime example of someone who knew what they couldn't do well, and worked on it till they became pretty good at it. I'd have to say yes because he was successful in his time, and I honestly believe that if he were to fight today without any injuries he would be successful again.

Kazushi Sakuraba - Obviously.

Dan Severn - Yeah, first wrestler to be successful in MMA. Like Royce, wasn't the best at what he did, but the first to really make a mark in the eyes of the fans.

Frank Shamrock - One of the biggest stars of the UFC at one point, helped carry them through their dark days with the feud against Tito, really helped build a non heavyweight division to showcase lighter fighters, which is the UFC's money division now, and fought guys at 200 while being roughly 185. Combine that with the fact that he was a smart fighter with great cardio and a very good skillset and I'd have to say yes.

Ken Shamrock - Being a WWE star doesn't mean shit. Great draw because of it, never really did anything else. Of course he'll get in because this thing is probably a joke, but really no.

Maurice Smith - Nah.

 

MANAGEMENT/HISTORICAL

 

Rorion Gracie (creator of UFC) - Correct me if I'm wrong, but the UFC was really the first org to bring MMA into the mainstream really, and really get it out there. It's also the main org that slowly but surely saw the development of the sport, even during its darkest days. Created for the sole purpose of making BJJ the most popular martial art, it still made its mark in other ways. I say you have to put him in there for it.

 

I realised I may have gone over some limit I'm not aware of, but oh well. I would put in Matt Hughes at some point as well, along with Tito Ortiz.

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

BUMP

 

This needs more discussion, it could be interesting in my opinion, as I'm sure many of us disagree on different candidates.