If Shawn Michaels never hurt his back

[UZI Suicide 0]

How do you think the course of history would have been different for the WWF?

 

Would he have gone on to win the title back from Austin at a PPV a few months later?

 

Would D-X have broken up?

 

If they didn't, would they have still turned face and got X-Pac/Outlaws to join?

 

Would HHH have ever become a big-star or just been stuck playing second fiddle to Michaels?

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

I think he would have done his best to derail Austin, and would have tried to get out of dropping the WWF belt to Austin. If Vince forced the issue, and Shawn did drop the belt, I have no doubt he would have bitched and moaned his way into getting the belt right back, and into starting a program with Hunter. It would be Hunter v Shawn from 2002-4, but with Shawn being the top guy only willing to put over his best friend.

[Guest Rrrsh]

Id say that Shawn would have ended up being Austin greatest rival ever.

[Guest Fook]

Well of course you would say that.

 

I say McMahon/Austin would still have happened. HBK would have feuded with HHH over the leadership of DX. I'd go as far to say that if Michaels was around, DX never would have turned face and feuded with the Nation and it would have been Ken Shamrock who ended the Rock's IC title reign.

[Guest JMA]

I think he would have done his best to derail Austin, and would have tried to get out of dropping the WWF belt to Austin. If Vince forced the issue, and Shawn did drop the belt, I have no doubt he would have bitched and moaned his way into getting the belt right back, and into starting a program with Hunter. It would be Hunter v Shawn from 2002-4, but with Shawn being the top guy only willing to put over his best friend.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That sounds about right.

[Papacita 0]

I think he would have done his best to derail Austin, and would have tried to get out of dropping the WWF belt to Austin. If Vince forced the issue, and Shawn did drop the belt, I have no doubt he would have bitched and moaned his way into getting the belt right back, and into starting a program with Hunter. It would be Hunter v Shawn from 2002-4, but with Shawn being the top guy only willing to put over his best friend.

Do you really think that Vince would've chosen Shawn over Austin as hot as he was at that point?

 

I think another HBK title run is a given, and the HHH feud is a possibility as well, but with as much money as Austin was bringing in at the time, there's no way he'd knock him out of the top spot in favor of Shawn. I really think he'd let Shawn walk and go to WCW before he allowed that to happen.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

I think he would have done his best to derail Austin, and would have tried to get out of dropping the WWF belt to Austin. If Vince forced the issue, and Shawn did drop the belt, I have no doubt he would have bitched and moaned his way into getting the belt right back, and into starting a program with Hunter. It would be Hunter v Shawn from 2002-4, but with Shawn being the top guy only willing to put over his best friend.

Do you really think that Vince would've chosen Shawn over Austin as hot as he was at that point?

 

I think another HBK title run is a given, and the HHH feud is a possibility as well, but with as much money as Austin was bringing in at the time, there's no way he'd knock him out of the top spot in favor of Shawn. I really think he'd let Shawn walk and go to WCW before he allowed that to happen.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think Shawn's politicking would have reached new heights in trying to derail Austin. I'm sure Vince would go with wanting to push Austin with how crazy over he was, but I'm also just as sure that Shawn would have done everything he could, including threatening to walk out, to get Vince to change his mind, and even though Austin is the one to side with in hindsight, there is no telling what Vince would decide, what with WM 14 being, at that point, the most publicized Wrestlemania of the modern era, and a gun being held to his head.

[Guest Rrrsh]

Well of course you would say that.

 

I say McMahon/Austin would still have happened.  HBK would have feuded with HHH over the leadership of DX.  I'd go as far to say that if Michaels was around, DX never would have turned face and feuded with the Nation and it would have been Ken Shamrock who ended the Rock's IC title reign.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, I could have said that Shawn would turn face, have out popped Austin, making him far less over. But I didnt, cuz that is insane.

 

You can save you snide remarks, thank you.

[pochorenella 0]

No matter how many times I read these forums, I'm still amazed by the sheer amount of hatred Shawn Michaels gets from stuff he reportedly did over 8 years ago. Hell, he even gets blasted for stuff he hasn't done but "woudl've done without a doubt", of course because we know exactly how he thinks and what he'll do.

 

Now, regarding the topic question, I'm more inclined to agree with Fook's scenario. A feud between HHH and HBK over DX's leadership would have been a natural progression, and I think the winning side would've still turned face. Fans even gave them face pops back in those days so that would've come naturally, too. Shawn also could've faced The Rock back in those days if he was healthy.

[Guest JMA]

I think he would have done his best to derail Austin, and would have tried to get out of dropping the WWF belt to Austin. If Vince forced the issue, and Shawn did drop the belt, I have no doubt he would have bitched and moaned his way into getting the belt right back, and into starting a program with Hunter. It would be Hunter v Shawn from 2002-4, but with Shawn being the top guy only willing to put over his best friend.

Do you really think that Vince would've chosen Shawn over Austin as hot as he was at that point?

 

I think another HBK title run is a given, and the HHH feud is a possibility as well, but with as much money as Austin was bringing in at the time, there's no way he'd knock him out of the top spot in favor of Shawn. I really think he'd let Shawn walk and go to WCW before he allowed that to happen.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think Shawn's politicking would have reached new heights in trying to derail Austin. I'm sure Vince would go with wanting to push Austin with how crazy over he was, but I'm also just as sure that Shawn would have done everything he could, including threatening to walk out, to get Vince to change his mind, and even though Austin is the one to side with in hindsight, there is no telling what Vince would decide, what with WM 14 being, at that point, the most publicized Wrestlemania of the modern era, and a gun being held to his head.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I could easily see that happening. Vince was (and still is) a huge HBK mark, so there's no telling what he'd do. But I think that Austin would've managed to avoid getting buried by the Clique. Besides, without Austin being pushed as hard as he was, the Monday Night Wars might've had a different outcome. Even Vince has admitted that Austin was one of the biggest reasons why WWF overtook WCW in the ratings.

[cabbageboy 0]

It was over for Shawn by 1998. He 100% had to job at WM, there was no issue. And frankly there really wasn't much left for him at that point. I personally think he would have had a quick rematch with Austin and jobbed again, then HHH would snap and toss him out of DX, they would feud, Shawn could put his buddy over, and finally Shawn would have been sent packing to WCW (with a fat contract of course) and he could at least dick around with Bret some more.

[Shooting Star 0]

Id say that Shawn would have ended up being Austin greatest rival ever.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Are you a gimmick poster or something?

[CanadianChick 0]

Shawn Michaels would be a lot less happy of a real person right now. He wouldn't have his wife or his kid.

 

With all the painkillers he was popping in 97/98, he might be dead for all we know.

 

At the pace he was going and all the crazy bumps he took, he would have gotten seriously hurt anyways by continuing to push his body's limits. All in all, I think it was a good thing for Shawn Michaels that he did get injured.

 

On the other hand, had Shawn stayed healthy, not get injured, ect., I doubt HHH would be a 10 time champion right now. Of course, that's hearsey, but so is this thread in general.

 

Are you a gimmick poster or something?

 

To be fair, it could have been true (Shawn being Austin's greatest rival). If Shawn and HHH both stayed heel with DX, Rocky probably wouldn't have gotten the oppertunity to be a big time heel and feud with Austin to be his great rival. The big main eventers probably would have been Austin, Shawn, Taker and HHH, instead of Austin, Rock, HHH and Taker.

[Team Angle Pusher 0]

HBK wouldn't have found religion and he would still be a bad ass Heel.

[cabbageboy 0]

Nah, The Rock was pimped as the Future from the get go, so I don't think there's any way he would have been left out in the cold.

 

It was the best thing for the company really, Shawn was so incredibly passe at that point that there was no way the company could rebound with him. He was perhaps too closely identified with the shitty mid 90s era WWF that was getting stomped by WCW.

 

Any Michaels defenders wanna counter this: Michaels won the WWF title in April of 1996. Within two months WCW took the ratings lead and dominated the WWF the entire time Michaels was headlining. Austin finally beats Shawn and sends him packing, then within a month the WWF starts beating WCW again in the ratings. Further, from the 1998-2001 period the WWF was incredibly dominant and popular, then Michaels returns in 2002 and the promotion goes down the tubes again. Some of this may be coincidence, but what does this really illustrate about Michaels, his drawing ability, his acceptance among the casual fans, and his effect on the company?

[chaosrage 0]

Any Michaels defenders wanna counter this:  Michaels won the WWF title in April of 1996.  Within two months WCW took the ratings lead and dominated the WWF the entire time Michaels was headlining.

 

Ever heard of the NWO?

 

Austin finally beats Shawn and sends him packing, then within a month the WWF starts beating WCW again in the ratings. 

 

Right because ratings certainly weren't going up ever since Montreal happened and they didn't get one of their biggest buyrates of all time at WM14. When Michaels left it probably magically jumped from a 1.0 to a 8.0 the next night and millions of fans said "Hey, Michaels isn't going to be there this week, let's watch and order PPVs!"

 

Some of this may be coincidence, but what does this really illustrate about Michaels, his drawing ability, his acceptance among the casual fans, and his effect on the company?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Absolutely nothing?

[pochorenella 0]

It was the best thing for the company really, Shawn was so incredibly passe at that point that there was no way the company could rebound with him.  He was perhaps too closely identified with the shitty mid 90s era WWF that was getting stomped by WCW.

 

Any Michaels defenders wanna counter this:  Michaels won the WWF title in April of 1996.  Within two months WCW took the ratings lead and dominated the WWF the entire time Michaels was headlining.  Austin finally beats Shawn and sends him packing, then within a month the WWF starts beating WCW again in the ratings.  Further, from the 1998-2001 period the WWF was incredibly dominant and popular, then Michaels returns in 2002 and the promotion goes down the tubes again.  Some of this may be coincidence, but what does this really illustrate about Michaels, his drawing ability, his acceptance among the casual fans, and his effect on the company?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

"Michaels Defenders?" Geez...

 

Well, chaosrage already made good counterpoints but I figure I put my 2 cents in.

 

Shawn was incredibly passe?? What were you watching? Shawn Michaels as the heel DX leader was absolutely the most over perhaps in his whole career. And he was still kicking ass inside the ring in matches like HIAC and his Rumble defense against Taker. And let us not forget the terrific DX promos he did at the time, like the twisting-knee thingie before the DX PPV.

WM14 made the biggest buyrate ever at that point, but of course, all the credit goes to Steve Austin and absolutely NONE is given to Michaels. I even heard the argument that ANYONE could have been put in that spot and kept the buyrate. Yeah, right. Doink vs. Stone Cold at WM could have been huge, I tell you.

Ratings were already steadily on the rise way before Mania, so HBK was also part of the uprise, even if he was not a part of the actual beating of Nitros streak.

 

Of course, I could point that it also was a coincidence that Bret Hart left WWF and they finally beat WCW on the ratings and took the lead in fans preference, and that Bret Hart was key when WCW went down the shitter and made them go bankrupt. But God forbid I do that, else I suffer the onslaught of all the angry smarks and become banned from this forum. It was just COINCIDENCE. Like pretty much everything you pointed in your post.

[CanadianChick 0]

Cabbageboy, my young mind might be decieving me, but didn't Rocky really only go from a funny mid-carder to really being groomed for the future after Shawn left? Sure, he did have that IC title feud with Austin, but would that have eventually transcended? After HBK left, HHH turned face and feuded with Rocky, who eventually feuded with Austin. Had HBK been there alongside HHH, that would have been the two main heels and Rocky wouldn't have been really needed.

 

I'm not saying Rocky wouldn't be a main eventer, but would it have been to the point where he would have been part of the group that led the main event? I say he would have ended up in more of a Kurt Angle-esq role, barring HBK injury.

[Zack Malibu 0]

Given the vibe he was giving the locker room at the time (Undertaker having to menace him backstage to make sure he put Austin over properly, for one), I could see Shawn being out of the WWF as soon as his contract was up. Of course that would have meant hell for Bret in WCW, seeing as how Hogan, Hall and Nash were already twisting the knife in his back.

 

Politics aside, if Shawn was injury free, I think that the night after Wrestlemania, Triple H would have still come down on him for losing the title, and X-Pac would have returned to help beat Shawn down. DX would get together as heels originally and wind up turning babyface, just as they did. The only twist to this is that Shawn would have come back as a "holier than thou" heel, basically saying that he "found himself" while he was on the shelf and if the fans are going to cheers degenerates like that, he doesn't need the fans anymore. His first major match back would be an awesome match with X-Pac on a throwaway PPV (Unforgiven, Judgment Day, etc.), building to the major one on one match with Triple H.

 

With Triple H dealing with Shawn in late '98-early '99, I could see The Rock and a heel Ken Shamrock having a major feud that put Rocky over the top as a babyface. DX and The Nation would have been a summer feud for the most part.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Cabbageboy, my young mind might be decieving me, but didn't Rocky really only go from a funny mid-carder to really being groomed for the future after Shawn left? Sure, he did have that IC title feud with Austin, but would that have eventually transcended? After HBK left, HHH turned face and feuded with Rocky, who eventually feuded with Austin. Had HBK been there alongside HHH, that would have been the two main heels and Rocky wouldn't have been really needed.

 

I'm not saying Rocky wouldn't be a main eventer, but would it have been to the point where he would have been part of the group that led the main event? I say he would have ended up in more of a Kurt Angle-esq role, barring HBK injury.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not to mention that with both Rock and Hunter vying for the same spot, Shawn would have also been trying to derail Rock to make sure Hunter got the spot.

 

From Meltzer on WC:

 

The incident in question was a TV match in 1997 with Bret Hart as a heel vs. Rock as a face. rock and HHH were rivals for the same spot, and it was booked for Hart to win with a sharpshooter. Hart went to management and said Rock was going to be the future superstar of the company and he saw no reason to beat him. He knew why it was booked that way, so he did some sort of DQ finish instead. Shawn cried like a baby over it because their ingenious plan had been screwed. That's why, to this day, the guys Rock always praises the most are Hart and Austin.

 

Given that, I think Rock might have had more than a little trouble reaching the heights he did.

[chaosrage 0]

The incident in question was a TV match in 1997 with Bret Hart as a heel vs. Rock as a face. rock and HHH were rivals for the same spot, and it was booked for Hart to win with a sharpshooter. Hart went to management and said Rock was going to be the future superstar of the company and he saw no reason to beat him. He knew why it was booked that way, so he did some sort of DQ finish instead. Shawn cried like a baby over it because their ingenious plan had been screwed. That's why, to this day, the guys Rock always praises the most are Hart and Austin.

 

Given that, I think Rock might have had more than a little trouble reaching the heights he did.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Does he mean the match right after WM where Hart was just coming off his brilliant heel turn and Rocky Maivia was just some guy who appeared to have no potential? The time where even Foley was saying Vince should cut his losses and get rid of the guy? Damn, does Shawn's evilness have a limit?

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

The incident in question was a TV match in 1997 with Bret Hart as a heel vs. Rock as a face. rock and HHH were rivals for the same spot, and it was booked for Hart to win with a sharpshooter. Hart went to management and said Rock was going to be the future superstar of the company and he saw no reason to beat him. He knew why it was booked that way, so he did some sort of DQ finish instead. Shawn cried like a baby over it because their ingenious plan had been screwed. That's why, to this day, the guys Rock always praises the most are Hart and Austin.

 

Given that, I think Rock might have had more than a little trouble reaching the heights he did.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Does he mean the match right after WM where Hart was just coming off his brilliant heel turn and Rocky Maivia was just some guy who appeared to have no potential? The time where even Foley was saying Vince should cut his losses and get rid of the guy? Damn, does Shawn's evilness have a limit?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

According to Cawthon's site, the match was taped two days after WM XIII and aired six days after that.

[KTID 0]

The only reason Michaels was allowed to get away with his backstage antics in the mid-90s was because the company was doing shit business-wise, and McMahon thought that losing him would be a fatal blow and gave in to him on every little thing. Once business picked up, with the popularity of Steve Austin and the "Attitude"-era, the company was no longer dependent on any individuals. (He had the same attitude about the prospect of Bret leaving, which is why he gave him an unsustainable 20-year contract to keep him and later changed his mind and let him go.) There is no way that, during the peak-years of the late 90s, Vince would have allowed Michaels to continue to manipulate him. Michaels would then have either done as he was told, or throw a tantrum and be sent packing. Either way, he would not be impeding other guys progress or ruining storylines.

[cabbageboy 0]

I will reiterate it: Shawn was passe by 1998. I don't mean in terms of not having good matches, it's just that he was injury prone by that point, a backstage cancer, and was seemingly holding the WWF back from attaining new heights.

 

WM 14 did an awesome buyrate for a lot of reasons: It was finally Austin winning the title, nearly every match seemed to have a compelling storyline, and at long last Michaels was going to get the shit kicked out of him.

 

The Bret argument doesn't fly since he was the champ in the WWF when the company was at least still the #1 company. In fact WCW didn't surpass the WWF until he went on a long hiatus after WM 12. WCW's ratings slide had little to do with Bret, they didn't do shit with him.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

Ever heard of the NWO?

 

Except the NWO didn't start paying off financially until the fall, and the first good buyrate that the NWO drew was the 0.95 they got at Starrcade in December, after Shawn had lost the belt. The NWO didn't even get started until July, when Shawn's reign was half over and he was already tanking by that point. The peak of the NWO-era came in 1997, which helps explain why WWF had trouble gaining a foothold that year despite a good product, but it had very little impact on HBK's title run.

 

Right because ratings certainly weren't going up ever since Montreal happened and they didn't get one of their biggest buyrates of all time at WM14. When Michaels left it probably magically jumped from a 1.0 to a 8.0 the next night and millions of fans said "Hey, Michaels isn't going to be there this week, let's watch and order PPVs!"

 

Shawn was only there full-time from Montreal to the Royal Rumble. He got injured at the Royal Rumble and never wrestled again on RAW. This was also where the bulk of the increase was. Note that Steve Austin in a complete throwaway tag team main event at No Way Out in February drew a better buyrate than the December 1997 show that was built completely around DX and was one of the lowest bought PPVs in WWF history. Shawn's role in the rebirth of the WWF begins and ends at Montreal, where interest over the screwjob caused ratings to jump almost a full point overnight. Even there, the bulk of the attention was on Vince McMahon. Michaels was more of an afterthought. The rest of the rise can almost solely be attributed to Austin. Just look at Royal Rumble 1998 and tell me who's the bigger star. The pure fact that ratings continued to go up after Michaels left when Austin was stuck fighting Foley and Kane, should tell you that Michaels had little impact on the ratings increase. If your argument is that Shawn is just as good a ratings draw as Kane, then okay you might have made your point, because Kane had no impact on the ratings in 1998 either. Austin could have been feuding with Kurrgan for the belt in 1998, because Austin was simply one of those performers that come along once in a generation. Like Hogan in 1986, who was a better draw fighting slugs like Kamala anybody between then and 1998. The week that Nitro lost the streak was a week featuring Austin vs. McMahon (a guy who wasn't even a wrestler), so saying Doink/Austin would draw just as well as HBK/Austin isn't as far off as one might think.

 

For the record, I like Shawn Michaels as a wrestler and want to see him feud with Cena over the WWE Title. I also think that JBL is the most entertaining wrestler in the company. But neither are draws, the numbers are there in black and white.

[Guest Rrrsh]

Id say that Shawn would have ended up being Austin greatest rival ever.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Are you a gimmick poster or something?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Either something to the thread or shut it.

[Guest Rrrsh]

I will reiterate it:  Shawn was passe by 1998.  I don't mean in terms of not having good matches, it's just that he was injury prone by that point, a backstage cancer, and was seemingly holding the WWF back from attaining new heights.

 

WM 14 did an awesome buyrate for a lot of reasons:  It was finally Austin winning the title, nearly every match seemed to have a compelling storyline, and at long last Michaels was going to get the shit kicked out of him.

 

The Bret argument doesn't fly since he was the champ in the WWF when the company was at least still the #1 company.  In fact WCW didn't surpass the WWF until he went on a long hiatus after WM 12.  WCW's ratings slide had little to do with Bret, they didn't do shit with him.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

1: Shawn was far from Passe. He was cutting edge and hated by all. Watch the tapes dude, FUCKIN HATED. So, on-air, he was a great talent.

 

2:Shawn's part in the match absolutly helped they buyrtae. Your blind if you think other wise.

 

3. Bret headlined the worst PPV buyrate in WWE history. Neither men drew.

[Guest JMA]

I will reiterate it:  Shawn was passe by 1998.  I don't mean in terms of not having good matches, it's just that he was injury prone by that point, a backstage cancer, and was seemingly holding the WWF back from attaining new heights.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, I tend to agree. It seems like there comes a point when a wrestling promotion has to purge some wrestlers in order to move forward.

[cabbageboy 0]

Sure, Michaels was hated...I know I fucking loathed his ass. And yes I'll admit I watched WM 14 more to see him finally get his than for Austin to win the title (I had yet to fully embrace Austin). That said, after he lost I didn't want to see him anymore. His time was over. Done. I didn't want to see him get rematches, or get the title back...I just wanted his ass gone.

 

One reason he was so hated is that they kept pimping him as some sort of great champion during his last run in 1997/98. I mean my god, everyone knew he had ZERO credibility with the title and got it in a flagrant screwjob.

 

As I said, there was simply nowhere for Michaels post WM 14. He was too rebellious to be a Vince stooge to feud with Austin, so he'd likely be tossed from DX and done a face turn and been a distant #2 behind Austin. Or he could have just been released and sent packing to WCW.

 

I could look up the buyrates and compare the shows Bret headlined as champion with the Shawn shows. I'd think the buyrates from roughly late 1992 through 95 would certainly beat whatever Michaels drew as champion in 1996-97.

[Guest Rrrsh]

I think if you took evey PPV Hart was in a World Title Match to Shawns, they would be pretty parellell.