CM Punk buried by HHH, Hayes, and HBK

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Well, I tried.

[Guest Coffey]

You didn't even really say anything though. I mean, you just broke down my replies with sentence remarks mixed in with sarcastic comments like "Ah, to be wide-eyed and innocent again." Anyone can do that. Breaking down paragraphs into sentences that can be taken out of context isn't how it should be done. I'll do it too, since apparently, according to Lord of the Curry, I was some how e-defeated, so I got to get my dignity back.

 

I tried to pose some things that I genuinely wanted you to reply to, like the Hardy response, but I guess it'd be easier to just add me to your "idiot poster of the day" section of your blog? (there's those damn snide comments). I'm trying to spark some discussion and instead it's dismissed as "well, he's an idiot because he don't agree with me." (actually, maybe that should say doesn't agree with the majority)

 

While it is true Vince has the final say

Which means you some what agreed with me, but then added:

a portion of blame still has to go the self-serving individuals trying to sway Vince's opinion

Which I addressed with:

Everyone in the business, for the most part, is self serving. Especially in the "big leagues." It's a kill or be killed business. Everyone knows that. It's not going to change. If's that's all this comes down to, then I say fucking kudos to Triple H for playing the game so well. He wasn't the first and he won't be the last.

..but "you tried" so I assume you won't retort to this?

 

Ah, to be wide-eyed and innocent again. Seriously, it would be nice to think that Hunter isn't that bad, but like I said, history shows he really is that bad when it comes to burying people.

 

Sarcastic insult aside, you didn't add anything. You basically said "I answered it the first time. So, what'd you say the first time?

You can't believe Hunter could be so petty? Why? Hasn't his record when it comes to burying talent shown you how petty he can really be?

&

Unfortunately, history has shown is that when you get over on your own, the knives come out, and it's usually down hill from there.

The second quote being in regards to me saying Punk has to get over on his own regardless of who says what.

 

So, you asked how Hunter's record didn't show what he was capable of, which I replied to, although I know it was a stretch (since sometimes it's hard to play devil's advocate on a subject that you're not really 100% behind)

The only "track record" I know of is more stuff that I've read. I've read that he sits in on productions meetings and whatnot and all that other mess. I've seen him win against people like RVD and Booker T. when I thought he should lose. Ultimately, Vince still has the final say, even if people are in his ear. If anyone is to blame, it'd be him for allowing people to walk all over him.

 

Which takes us back to the blame being on Vince's hands. So, we talked ourselves into a circle. You never really added anything. You just hinted at this "history" which I assumed was more past indications of things that are "reported" like the "news" in this thread. Am I wrong in that assessment? Are there specific moments you're trying to point out or just all the Triple H hate from the past in general? I name dropped RVD and Booker T. and half-assedly (I think I just made up a word) addressed that.

 

I was like "what if" and you were like "you're wrong." So, I was like "just play along" and you were like "no, you're an idiot."

 

[UZI Suicide 0]

Edit: nevermind, not worth it

[Jericholic82 0]

Edit: nevermind, not worth it

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yea dont worry Loaded, this is just what HHH wants The IWC to self-destruct and turn on each other

 

BTW that pic of Virgil is one of the funniest, and saddest things I have seen lately.

[JMFabiano524 0]

I find it surprising that HHH and HBK would jump at the opportunity to lambaste the guy. Actually, I'm not. Those guys are the most paranoid, underhanded, conniving SOB's in the history of professional wrestling. As Black Lushus said, they know he's good -- too good, with a great opportunity to make it big -- but they want to cut him off at his knees like everyone else who isn't homegrown talent or is a potential threat to their spot.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

They're basically trying to screw him over worse than HHH did to Jericho since 1999.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Raw Thanksgiving 2005...HHH and Flair revisit the homeless people: "You can't work! You're just as bad as Punk! HAW HAW HAW!"

[AndrewTS 0]

The line on him was he didn't know how to get over and that the way he wrestles is like he's doing a simulated wrestling match and not working a wrestling match.

 

....

 

Um...yeah!

 

He needs to take notes from Cena and Hogan.

[cabbageboy 0]

The weird thing is that I saw Punk vs. Val Venis on Heat a while back and thought that match was pretty good for a typical Heat match.

 

I'm thinking Punk might be one of those guys who has to get into a groove out there, go 30m or so. I saw him on a few TNA show a couple years ago and thought nothing of him really.

 

One thing though...the guy needs a new name or gimmick. CM Punk sounds like a jobber name, it just does.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

So HHH was just watching out for Chris Jericho back in 1999, then. Amazing. He wasn't burying him at all, just addressing (in a very similar fashion) issues where Jericho could have improved.

[Guest xSarahx]

I'm just curious, to all the people who say Punk is "sloppy", exactly how long have you been following his career? Especially in the last year, he has improved so much that that argument is invalid.

 

It's funny that people feel they have the right to comment on Punk's matches when they haven't actually seen him wrestle or have just seen a few matches.

[UZI Suicide 0]

Of course, it's going to be hard to convince someone with CM Punk in their avatar that he is sloppy.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Of course, it's going to be hard to convince someone with CM Punk in their avatar that he is sloppy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Punk isn't sloppy, though.

[UZI Suicide 0]

Of course, it's going to be hard to convince someone with CM Punk in their avatar that he is sloppy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Punk isn't sloppy, though.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I know, I'm just saying, the argument would go nowhere.

[Guest xSarahx]

Of course, it's going to be hard to convince someone with CM Punk in their avatar that he is sloppy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

That really doesn't matter. It's not like I said that he was the greatest wrestler in the world and he can do no wrong. I'll be the first to admit that he's not perfect. There's not a single wrestler that doesn't have something they can work on.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

I should note that I agree with the rumoured assessment, not necessarily with Punk - who I've seen a handful of matches from, so I can't really say anything - but in terms of the vast majority of the ROH and American indies I've seen, it comes off as guys pretending to be wrestlers (or Luchadores, or Shootwrestlers...), rather than being wrestlers. Then again, the WWE guys aren't wrestlers either, so I don't know why the fuck HHH and HBK feel they deserve to say anything on the subject.

[AlaskanHero 0]

What exactly is meant by "pretending to be a wrestler"? I honestly have no idea what that means and would be very thankful if someone could elaborate on what that means.

[Guest xSarahx]

What exactly is meant by "pretending to be a wrestler"? I honestly have no idea what that means and would be very thankful if someone could elaborate on what that means.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I would guess "not knowing how to work" would fall under "pretending to be a wrestler". I don't know....it sounds pretty similar to me.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Emulating other wrestlers and what other wrestlers do rather than doing what wrestling is all about - pretending to fight. How many times have I seen a skinny white guy pretend to be Misawa?? It's awful. If you really want to be like Misawa, don't pretend to be Misawa, pretend to be whatever Misawa is pretending to be. You see indy guys doing intricate pinning sequences... why?? There is no sound explanation for it other than "because other guys do it". It's overly choreographed and is more like a dance than a fight.

 

In wrestling, at least in what I view as the pure form of professional wrestling, holds should be fought over, not simply given. There should be thought put into the moves, and what I see from the majority of wrestling today is that it's a collection of pre-planned spots, and in between those spots is a whole lot of filler and throw-away moves. Wrestling should be reactionary (with your opponent), as should working (with the crowd). Yes, you can still provide high spots that would normally not be found in a real fight, but only if they make sense to your story and how the match has unfolded.

 

And I find that even when I see guys try to work a headlock spot, it's like it's only to show that they're "really wrestling", and to get people talking about how they based a match around a headlock. And the dumbass fans watching will clap because that's what they think they should do, because in their minds they are purists and want to appreciate crap like that. But it all comes off as pre-planned, so the headlock loses its controlling features and isn't based on reaction.

[Guest xSarahx]

In wrestling, at least in what I view as the pure form of professional wrestling, holds should be fought over, not simply given.  There should be thought put into the moves, and what I see from the majority of wrestling today is that it's a collection of pre-planned spots, and in between those spots is a whole lot of filler and throw-away moves.  Wrestling should be reactionary (with your opponent), as should working (with the crowd).  Yes, you can still provide high spots that would normally not be found in a real fight, but only if they make sense to your story and how the match has unfolded. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well put.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Well, "not knowing how to work" can fall under "pretending to be a wrestler", but it is more along the "interaction with the fans" side of it. Not necessarily pandering to the audience, but working a tempo and controlling the pace so that you can move the audiences emotions around.

 

Benoit/Angle RR03 is the example I like to use most - the crowd was dead, and they brought it back to life. How did they do that? Unique moves like the DDT on the apron, hard work shown by the two men through a fast pace and hard-hitting action, and in particular, two spots that was able to get the crowd into it. There was a sleeper spot which got the typical "clap clap clap" from the audience, and then there was the double ko spot which got a "1...2...3...4...5..." count - both these things pulled the fans into the match by getting them active. Other things like blood, near-falls, unexpected spots, humour, trademark spots, etc. are good high spots in a match. Of course, time is a big factor and that match went 20 minutes and the fans were familiar with both guys - still, it was quite the accomplishment.

 

I wonder why HHH -expert on working- couldn't do the same?

 

With a WWE crowd, if you are unfamiliar to them, you have to do something special to get their attention. Humour is probably the best way to do that, rather than trying to get over on "hard work" and grunting. I don't mean gimmicks or anything, which is what the WWE thinks, I mean in-ring comedy. Wrestling is underrated in terms of slap-stick and physical comedy and actual comedy matches are pretty rare to see in the Fed... well, intentionally funny...

 

Another way to get over with the crowd is through interaction. Clapping your hands to get them to clap their hands, taking signs/beer/etc. and using them in your match, the 10 punches in the corner (better than the sleeper/cometolife spot), stuff like that.

 

And exceeding expectations is a good way to get over with a WWE audience as well. Make them think you are one thing, and then do a complete 180 and make them take notice that their first impression was wrong.

 

Listening comes into play when a spot gets the fans' attention, or doesn't. Do you continue holding that headlock despite it not getting the reaction you desired in hopes that they eventually wake up, or do you try something else? If the crowd pops for something, do you pick up the pace and try to sustain their interest? Should you go through the motions because you think the office doesn't want you to stray, or do you take advantage of the situation and do something you think would get the fans up? The purpose of a wrestler in the WWE should be to pop the audience - not because that's what wrestling is, not because that's what the WWE is, but because that's what Vince responds to best. He is the biggest mark for crowd reaction.

 

Unfortunately, he may not be watching everyones matches and may only get information second hand. So, if -say- HHH is the one feeding him info and HHH probably doesn't mark for the pop as much as Vince and looks for something else, he'd probably say "That kid did a crazy move that he shouldn't have done" rather than "That kid just made the crowd go nuts".

[King Cucaracha 0]

I'm just curious, to all the people who say Punk is "sloppy", exactly how long have you been following his career? Especially in the last year, he has improved so much that that argument is invalid.

 

It's funny that people feel they have the right to comment on Punk's matches when they haven't actually seen him wrestle or have just seen a few matches. 

 

I've seen him wrestle plenty of times and a good series of matches with Samoa Joe doesn't make him the messiah of professional wrestling that everyone makes him out to be. Hell, I've 'followed his career' since he started in the IWA. And that was what, four years ago? 2001? Certainly before he debuted in ROH. Certainly before he debuted against Michael Shane and even the ROH crowd took a while to 'get into him', reputation et all.

 

Now, maybe I don't follow ROH closely enough (but I watch plenty of other indies, which do exist despite what ROHbots would have you believe...but that's another matter for another day), as I haven't really seen all the Punk matches everyone is raving about from this year. I have seen the Joe/Punk 60 minute draw though. And, maybe it was over-hyped by people on here, but I wasn't blown away by it. I've never been 'blown away' with anything Punk's done. I like him, I can watch his matches and he's a good wrestler...but there's nothing about him in the ring that says 'wow, he's awesome'. And he needs that X factor (no pun intended) if he's going to stand out in the WWE. WWE Style or not. Hell, if there wasn't a 'WWE Style', he'd still have trouble standing out...gimmick and mic-work aside.

 

Punk as best North American Wrestler of the year? Like I say, I don't follow ROH closely so maybe he is. But to somebody who's never seen indie wrestling, Punk wouldn't stand out without a microphone in his hand. To a newcomer to wrestling, Christopher Daniels is a more 'stand-out' wrestler. Ditto Samoa Joe. Austin Aries. AJ Styles. James Gibson. Homicide. Alex Shelley. Roderick Strong. Colt Cabana. Hell, even Matt Sydal. I'm not saying Punk's *bad*. But there's not that one thing that'll set him apart from the crowd in ring that he's going to need in the WWE, because he can't get by on reputation and a cool series with Samoa Joe alone.

 

It took Punk quite a few, longer matches to get over with a ROH crowd. He's not going to have that luxury. His best hope to get over quick would be his mic work. But again, with a script, how good will he be?

 

 

And reading back, that sounded really negative, especially from (believe it or not) a Punk fan.

 

 

EDIT: Also, Rudo is absolutely right. And Punk can do comedy...his series with Delirious this year, although humour was mostly from Delirious, prove that. The problem comes when people on here moan because Punk's "become a comedy wrestler because HHH doesn't like him."

Edited September 16, 2005 by King Cucaracha

[humongous2002 0]

Hate him all you want, RVD is one of the few guys that got over in his first match.  Because he was just different.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well the sad thing is that WWE still didn't do anything to make Rob into a top main eventer, WWE management feels that he is not good enough since he is not a Clique member, Taker or from OVW.

[cabbageboy 0]

I agree on Punk not really being a notable wrestler. I have not seen his ROH work, but the times I saw him on TNA he did little to impress along side guys like AJ Styles, Lo Ki, Jerry Lynn, etc.

 

To get over in WWE it takes either a really different style that makes people stand up and take notice (RVD) or a fun schtick on the mic that establishes a guy's character (Ken Kennedy currently on Smackdown).

[Rendclaw 0]

I have said it before and I will say it again. Rudo, you should be booking somewhere. You laid that out perfectly.

 

Wrestling does need to get back to its roots, thats for sure. In another thread, bps basically broke down the three most popular feds right now and did them correctly. If you want the best wrestling for its own sake, that would be ROH. If you want more action and high-flying, TNA is the way to go. And if you don;t care so much about the wrestling and want storylines (as horrible as they are), go with the E.