Kurt Angle vs. Christopher Daniels

[Adam 0]

I can't really go into any more detail than a lot of the people here, so I'll just cover stuff in brief using categories already visited.

 

First, ring work. Angle is, as has been noted, restricted by a particular style. However, I can think of more times where I've gone out of my way to see a Christopher Daniels match than times where I've really had to see a Kurt Angle match. My first experience of Daniels was the Triple Threat he had with Low Ki and American Dragon back at the first ROH show. I was blown away. Since then, his performances in ROH and TNA that I have seen far outdo Angle's. I just don't think Angle is physically able, or has the motivation that Daniels does.

 

As for mic work and character, the current version of Kurt Angle infuriates me. HTQ gave the most accurate description of his promos that I can think of, that he's trying too hard to be Kurt Angle. The old dumbass Three I's heel was fantastic, and that morphed into the SmackDown Six heel Angle, which was also great. This current version is way too angry to be Kurt Angle. When I saw Kurt live back in 02, he impressed me.

 

Daniels has never really changed. His promo this past week on Impact showed me that he can be consistent. The personas that he has created both here and in Japan have gotten over huge, and he's done it by himself. Angle had a marketing machine behind him when he first started. The Fallen Angel character got over because Daniels worked his ass off to make it what he thought it should be. Seeing Daniels wrestle Styles live is easily my favourite moment of this year, and the reaction I got from him during that match is something I'll never forget. He had the crowd in the palm of his hand for the entire thirty minutes, and they only did about 3 high spots in that time. A plancha, a missed BME, and something else.

 

I'd like to add another perspective to the arguement. The question is 'who is better overall'. Well, I think you need to include the following. Who, out of Christopher Daniels and Kurt Angle, is better at being a professional wrestler? Now that might sound like a rephrasing of the question, but work with me here. Who handles the job better? Asking who is best should not just include who is best at performing their job, but who is best at managing their lifestyle? I think the answer here is clear. Daniels has been wrestling for ten years more than Angle. He has performed all over the world for that entire time. I'm sure he's travelled just as much as Kurt has.

 

As far as I know, Daniels' home life is still in tact. I doubt he's on any major supplements, and I very much doubt that he is addicted to painkillers. Its clear that Christopher Daniels handles the job of being a professional wrestler better than Kurt Angle does. When I met Daniels, he seemed very much at ease with his role, very happy to be where he was, and very down to earth. I haven't met Kurt, so I can't comment on his demeanour to fans. Perhaps someone else can help out.

 

I know that someone is now going to come in here and bring up the point of Kurt being in the spotlight all the time and being under pressure to perform all the time, but isn't Daniels as well? Isn't it the case in the Indies that you go out there, give it your all, and hope you get invited back? Kurt has guaranteed money. Daniels, for the first ten years of his career, did not. He had to justify his wage.

 

So, its clear who my choice is. I'm interested to know any counter arguments you guys have.

[HandofFate 0]

going back as to why Daniels was chosen against Angle was that someone in the TNA folder was crapping on the X-Division and Daniels in particular. The poster then went on to justify it by saying how Angle was better than Daniels hence why the poll was started in the TNA folder, then brought here

[Brett Favre 0]

Worker maybe, but to say Daniels has a better mind than Angle in wrestling is stupid. That's more of what I meant to say. And it's true. No one in NWATNA or the WWE has a better mind for wrestling than Angle. The man did the real thing, while they've been hitting each other with fake punches most of their lives.

Edited December 27, 2005 by Cena's Writer

[Hawk 34 0]

Worker maybe, but to say Daniels has a better mind than Angle in wrestling is stupid. That's more of what I meant to say. And it's true. No one in NWATNA or the WWE has a better mind for wrestling than Angle. The man did the real thing, while they've been hitting each other with fake punches most of their lives.

 

Kurt Angle isn't the only pro wrestler to do the "real" thing.

[Brett Favre 0]

Well, he's done the real thing on the highest level.

[EricMM 0]

and the real thing has practically nothing to do with the fake thing.

 

next.

[Brett Favre 0]

When you've wrestled the real thing, I think you have a pretty decent mind for wrestling; wouldn't you think?

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

When you've wrestled the real thing, I think you have a pretty decent mind for wrestling; wouldn't you think?

Not really. Amateur wrestling is nothing like professional wrestling. Being a good amateur wrestler might make you better at being able to do matwork, but it doesn't help you learn how you got to the mat and why you're doing what you're doing when you get there. You can take the best amateur wrestler in the world and make them a pro, but if they don't have a mind for professional wrestling, then all that ability means nothing, now matter how good they are.

[Brett Favre 0]

I still think they have an advantage over somebody who just starts learning how to wrestle professionally. When you're an amateur wrestler, you know what you have to do to beat someone, and make it look realistic (because what you did was real). You should understand submission more than the average guy, and the pyschology of what you're trying to do. I'm saying that a guy who's an amateur wrestler will have an easier transition than a guy who just came off the streets.

Edited December 27, 2005 by Cena's Writer

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

They still have to be retrained as a pro wrestler. Kurt Angle was just lucky enough to learn everything and "get it" faster than normal.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

I still think they have an advantage over somebody who just starts learning how to wrestle professionally. When you're an amateur wrestler, you know what you have to do to beat someone, and make it look realistic (because what you did was real). You should understand submission more than the average guy, and the pyschology of what you're trying to do. I'm saying that a guy who's an amateur wrestler will have an easier transition than a guy who just came off the streets.

When you're an amateur wrestler, you know what you have to do to beat someone, and make it look realistic (because what you did was real)

 

Which has very little to do with 'WWE Style', where that level of realism counts for nothing.

 

You should understand submission more than the average guy, and the pyschology of what you're trying to do.

 

What you learn in amateur wrestling has nothing to do with being able to pick up professional wrestling. It might help in terms of being able to do more on the mat, but it won't help you pick it up if you don't have the mind for it, no matter how good you are.

 

I'm saying that a guy who's an amateur wrestler will have an easier transition than a guy who just came off the streets.

 

Not if the guy on the streets as a better mind for wrestling than the amateur guy. The amateur ability means nothing if the mind can't make use of it when transitioning to the professional side.

[Guest wildpegasus]

An amateur guy's going to be more likely to make it. Why? Because they got the mindset. They know what it's like to want it. They know what it's like to work.

 

They're also going to have some knowledge of the pro wrestling game.

 

I voted for Angle. I prefer his matches more.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

An amateur guy's going to be more likely to make it. Why? Because they got the mindset. They know what it's like to want it. They know what it's like to work.

 

Doesn't mean they'll pick up professional wrestling any faster. If they can't do that, then all that amateur talent won't mean a thing.

[Brett Favre 0]

Yes it does mean they'll pick up professional wrestling faster because they've been wrestling. As fake as it is, when you've been an amateur, you're more familiar with the workrate and the training, and anything that takes to become a wrestler.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

If you have not got the mind for professional wrestling, then all the amateur wrestling ability in the world won't make you pick up the pro game any faster. Some guys just can't pick up professional wrestling, no matter what background they have, including amateur wrestlers.

[Guest wildpegasus]

Angle/Benoit is the best Angle match I've ever seen. For the most part, Angle is regarded as a good wrestler. When picked at, you can find faults. However, he's still way above average. For anyone to give that match only ***, I'll never respect their opinion on anything wrestling regarded. If the match gets a standing ovation on a PPV where the main event is a 30 man battle royal, then it deserves the praise that it gets.

 

People like the clown that reviewed that match will never be happy with a WWE match.

 

That's all I'll say about that.

 

Opinions aren't usually right or wrong, so the only way to determine which opinions are worthwhile and which are worthless is to base it on the strength of the argument. That review brings up many good points, so to dismiss it without thought would cause me to doubt whether one can actually support their own opinion. If one has a problem with the points being made, the best course of action would be to present a counter-argument that explains why those points were erroneous. Until that happens, I'd tend to believe that the negative feelings towards the match are more justified than the positive feelings. And if he's so biased towards the WWE, how does that explain the relatively fair ratings of other WWE matches, such as Rock vs. Hogan or the WMXX triple threat?

 

Oh yes, you could also read some of his reviews of recent Japanese matches, where he absolutely tears some of those "highly regarded" matches to shreds. Seems like it's a fairly consistent approach to reviewing wrestling.

 

Chris and a few of his followers are byist towards a certain way of wrestling and if anything breaks their rules on what's supposed to make a great match than they will break it down. No matter how good it is. They also seem to have a hard time understanding why people can love one of their torn down matches. I have seen some give from a few of them lately though.

 

But of course we are all byist somewhat towards what makes a great match great. We all have our own rules. I've been trying to find my own review of Benoit vs Angle but it's buried deep within my own posts somewhere. Nevertheless it is indeed a great match that did a superb job of drawing the fans in. A legit ring a ding dong dandy -- definitely over 3 stars and without a doubt over 4 stars.

[Brett Favre 0]

Back to the original point, Angle's combination of amateur wrestling and having the mind for pro-wrestling gives him a better mind for wrestling.

[Guest wildpegasus]

An amateur guy's going to be more likely to make it. Why? Because they got the mindset. They know what it's like to want it. They know what it's like to work.

 

Doesn't mean they'll pick up professional wrestling any faster. If they can't do that, then all that amateur talent won't mean a thing.

 

Yes it does.

 

Let's say you could go out on the street and find 100 random amateur wrestlers. Now let's say you go out on the street and find 100 random people. Who's going to be more likely to be able to make it as a pro wrestler? The amateur wrestlers without a doubt. Overall, they're going to be tougher - mentally and physically, they're going to be more competive, they're going to be more athletic, they're going to have some knowledge of the wrestling game thanks to the amateur game and they're going to have a great work ethic.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Are we ignoring that amateur wrestling is nothing like professional wrestling and that Kurt himself said he had to forget everything he learned in amateur wrestling before he could learn about professional wrestling?

[Guest wildpegasus]

If you have not got the mind for professional wrestling, then all the amateur wrestling ability in the world won't make you pick up the pro game any faster. Some guys just can't pick up professional wrestling, no matter what background they have, including amateur wrestlers.

 

Well, theoretically that first line is true but the thing is even if an amateur wrestler "doesn't have the mind for professional wrestling" he's still going to have the mind for professional wrestling and that will help him pick up the game faster than most people. Yes, I just wrote a contradicting setence but what I'm trying to say is that even if an amateur wrestler were to hate the pros he's still got an advantage with his mind because his mind already has several of the ingredients it needs to be a professional wrestler.

 

The last line in your post is true. However, an amateur wrestler is more likey to make it than almost anyone.

[Guest wildpegasus]

Are we ignoring that amateur wrestling is nothing like professional wrestling and that Kurt himself said he had to forget everything he learned in amateur wrestling before he could learn about professional wrestling?

 

 

And I believe Bret and Owen have said that they owe a lot to amateur wrestling for being the great professional wrestlers that they turned out to be.

 

The big thing was Kurt was that he had to change his competitive way of thinking.

 

But besides that you gotta believe all that riduculously insane training he did boosted his ego. When you go through that you prove to yourself you can go through anything. It gives you a mental edge.Of course the mental edge was always there because if it wasn't Kurt never would've been able to do what he did in the first place. However, doing it again and again reinforces your belief and confidence in yourself. The amateur wrestling and the training that went along with it had to have helped his motivated mindset he currently has in the WWE.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

Angle is/was (probably was, due to injuries) sort of held back in WWE most of the time, I doubt they let him do everything he could have done as a worker. His character is unfortunately cast as gimmicky no matter what side he's on or what's driving him on any particular day, but he still does have charisma. Remember the whole Sherri skit in March?

 

Also, I believe a guy who has amateur experience and goes into pro wrestling will be able to catch on a hell of a lot faster than a guy who just stepped out of a bodybuilding contest and isn't familiar with any form of wrestling. It definitely, definitely helps. You just don't see it too much, and you see a lot more "families" ala Hart and Guererro, but for all the successes we've gotten from that, we've also had some bad ones like Flair's son trying to be a contender in WCW.

[Scroby 0]

Were I'm training we have a amateur wrestling coach who is now training for pro. He started about a month or so after I started. The one thing he was having an issue with was transiting (sp?) the moves from amateur to pro. There are a lot of little differances that you have remind yourself not to do and remember to do. I think the main issue with anyone going from amateur into pro is the fact you have to figure out how to go through the motions the professional wrestling way and not using the amateur wrestling motions. I think thats what Angle ment when he said he had to forget everything he learned in amateur to venture out to pro.

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

I don't buy the whole amateur wrestling background making someone a "better mind" for pro wrestling.

 

Pro wrestling is fake.

 

It doesn't even loosely resemble what is done in amateur wrestling.

 

The anklelock? Seriously?

 

I really want the Joe vs. Angle thread so we can see how many people would pick Angle...and then we can laugh at them.

[Hoff 0]

I'd like to add another perspective to the arguement. The question is 'who is better overall'. Well, I think you need to include the following. Who, out of Christopher Daniels and Kurt Angle, is better at being a professional wrestler? Now that might sound like a rephrasing of the question, but work with me here. Who handles the job better? Asking who is best should not just include who is best at performing their job, but who is best at managing their lifestyle? I think the answer here is clear. Daniels has been wrestling for ten years more than Angle. He has performed all over the world for that entire time. I'm sure he's travelled just as much as Kurt has.

 

As far as I know, Daniels' home life is still in tact. I doubt he's on any major supplements, and I very much doubt that he is addicted to painkillers. Its clear that Christopher Daniels handles the job of being a professional wrestler better than Kurt Angle does. When I met Daniels, he seemed very much at ease with his role, very happy to be where he was, and very down to earth. I haven't met Kurt, so I can't comment on his demeanour to fans. Perhaps someone else can help out.

Bullshit, Adam. That's like saying Chad Kroeger is a better musician than Kurt Cobain because Chad didn't shoot himself. As much as I love Nickelback, we all know that ain't true. To judge someone's career by the rest of their lives is unfair. No matter what you can say about Kurt's mentality, his medication, or his home life, he is most certainly an unqualified success as a professional wrestler.

 

This poll, by the way, is as of this post at 56 to 56 -- a dead heat. Very interesting.

 

As for Angle/Joe, so okay, I've seen like three Samoa Joe matches, but from what I have seen I'd take Angle any day of the week. Not because Joe is "bad" somehow, but because I prefer the way Angle works and the spots he hits. He tends to wrap me in the moment. I would, admittedly, like to see more of Joe, but if you asked me right now, with my limited experience, I'd take Angle and I doubt I'm the only one. And fine, maybe we're the minority, but it irks me a little to see people saying they'd laugh at that opinion.

[Hoff 0]

The anklelock? Seriously?

Yeah, obviously it's a very fakey move, and for that matter when has Angle ever worked the ankle? But there's two reasons it works. First off, it's been built up as a killer move. It's got a reputation...credibility. Secondly, he can often grab it out of nowhere. It's a spot like Sweet Chin Music, the Rock Bottom, or the Stunner/Diamond Cutter/RKO/Kanyon Cutter/etc. that can swing the tide of a match at what seems like the end. It's that kind of drama that I, along with many of the more casual fans, appreciate much more than an extended technical affair. On its own merits, that style is nothing special, but when you get guys like Shawn and Kurt and Rock that work at it, and make it into almost an artform, that's something, in my opinion, to write home about. That's memorable.

[Adam 0]

That's fine, you obviously haven't seen enough of Joe to comment. But I would take Joe over Angle in a second. The guy has that nondescript factor that you only get every once in a while. He gets it. He gets how to get us eating out of the palm of his hand. And he does it very well.

 

Oh, and I do believe that judging a guy on the way he handles his job has merit. I think the 'overall' should include the ability to be a professional wrestler. Christopher Daniels handles his job. Kurt Angle does not. Kurt Angle would be better off mentally doing something else, not to mention physically. I just think its an element of the argument that you have to look into. And don't bring Nickelback discussion into this ever.

 

The fact remains, I basically took every single cent I had and put all my money together just to see a Christopher Daniels match live. Well, maybe not JUST to see him, but he was certainly a big fucking reason. Kurt Angle does not have that same effect on me. Daniels wins. And so does Joe.

[Hoff 0]

That's fine, you obviously haven't seen enough of Joe to comment.

That was the *first* thing I admitted. Obviously, you can't base that decision off of such little experience. But there's a lot of people out there likely in the same boat as I am, who have seen very little Joe, who would say Angle on principle. Laughing at them for that is kind of cruel, unless, like 99% of the internet, they state it as undeniable fact and pretend they've seen Joe's entire body of work. But if an informed person still picks Kurt Angle over Samoa Joe, you've got to be a pretty mean, petty individual to laugh at them or chide them for it.

[Si82 0]

I went for Daniels because he entertains me more than Kurt Angle. I don't think I care about a Kurt Angle match at this point but I can't wait to see Daniels/Joe.

[Guest Zarock]

In my opinion, Daniels is a better wrestler then Angle, definetly. Angle right now just doesn't interest me, although his promos from back in the day were great. Daniels has very little charisma, though, in the ring, and by that I mean his expressions seem to be exactly the same throughtout the match. Eddie Guerrero wrote about that in his book where he started teaming up with Art Barr, and I think he made a very good point. Daniels can cut decent promos (I really his last one, though, where he talked about breaking Samoa Joe's aura of invincibility- really makes me want to see him win), and he has a pretty good character. I really think he needs to work on his reactions and stuff in the ring, though.

 

So yeah, Daniels is a better wrestler, but Kurt Angle has way more charisma and can cut great promos when he wants to.