Loose Change 2nd Edition

[NoCalMike 0]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8...nge+2nd+edition

 

thoughts?

[2GOLD 0]

He covers each individual aspect of 9/11 in keen detail, and after watching 'Loose Change' it is almost impossible to walk away and not believe that 9/11 was engineered, not by Osama, but by our own Government.

 

Funny, I did just fine.

[Art Sandusky 0]

I'll watch the whole thing later, but that we "didn't expect" planes being used as missiles and "didn't expect" Hamas to win Palestinian elections four years later is funny. Our government really doesn't expect much.

[St. Gabe 0]

Approximately 30 seconds in he refers to Robert "Mick"Namara. He loses all credibility and I press stop.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

Ugh, people are still pushing the 9/11 conspiracy drivel?

 

Just because something would make a good movie plot, doesn't mean it happened, kiddies.

[Vyce 0]

I have to honestly question, would all of this conspiracy shit really be pushed so much by certain people if it wasn't a REPUBLICAN administration in charge when 9/11 happened, or are the people who try and push these psychotic ramblings as legit just the type of crazy wackjobs who would believe in this total bullshit regardless?

[Carnival 0]

Here's another question, who's crazier?

 

The people who soak all this in and think it's fact.

or

The people who dismiss it without giving it a chance.

[2GOLD 0]

Here's another question, who's crazier?

 

The people who soak all this in and think it's fact.

or

The people who dismiss it without giving it a chance.

 

I personally gave them all a chance, even the ones that defy logic for the first couple of months. Now it's just the same drivel over and over again. Most of the stuff has been shot to hell and back but the conspiracy whack jobs just keep jumping up and down repeating the same bs.

 

And I don't think it would have mattered who was in charge. Most of the ones who keep making the theories are the ones who could find a conspiracy in how quickly their Frosted Flakes soaked up their milk. To them, government is government and it's never to be trusted. At least they are unbiased in that sense.

[Art Sandusky 0]

I have to honestly question, would all of this conspiracy shit really be pushed so much by certain people if it wasn't a REPUBLICAN administration in charge when 9/11 happened, or are the people who try and push these psychotic ramblings as legit just the type of crazy wackjobs who would believe in this total bullshit regardless?

The latter. Most conspiracy theorists are pretty far right-wing, like, seperatist in Montana types. I mean, the biggest conspiracy theory in our culture is built around a Democrat being offed by his own peeps.

 

Then again, the most popular theory 'round these here Southern parts is where people will swear up and down that Martin Luther King's own confidants killed him.

 

Most of the 9/11 stuff is bunk to me, but there're still a few things here and there that actually warrant some examination. While I don't think the government actively planned it all out, it wouldn't surprise me if they allowed it to happen after knowing what was going to happen beforehand. Very little that's happened in the last five years has given me reason to trust the people in charge.

[Vyce 0]

Most of the 9/11 stuff is bunk to me, but there're still a few things here and there that actually warrant some examination. While I don't think the government actively planned it all out, it wouldn't surprise me if they allowed it to happen after knowing what was going to happen beforehand. Very little that's happened in the last five years has given me reason to trust the people in charge.

 

See, now that last sentence, coupled with your own political leanings, goes back to my initial question. You can say that it's mostly just the usual conspiracy headcases who believe in this bullshit, but something tells me that it's because a president of a particular political persuasion is in charge that makes people like you, at least on some level, say "Well, some of it could be possible......"

[2GOLD 0]

The problem is the US government never took terrorism seriously. Not Carter, not Reagan, not Sr Bush, not Clinton and not even Bush Jr. I mean, we got struck when Clinton was in office (the Towers first hit) and nothing changed about our policies. We just kinda shrugged our shoulders. Bush Jr just happened to be the guy in office when the terrorist made us take them seriously.

 

From 1993 to 2000, the United States was struck four times by terrorist attacks.

1993: The WTC car bomb

1996: Airmen dies in a Saudi bomb attack

1998: the US embassy bombed in South Africa

2000: The USS Cole is struck by terrorist

 

And how did we respond? Nothing, we did nothing. Face it, our government and the citizens of this country always turned a blind eye and constantly said, "oh we'll never get hit like that", and always refused to take it serious. It was always a "it's not our problem". People acting like what happened in 2001 was new and terrorism never involved us. No, it has always involed us and most of the country just couldn't be bothered.

 

You can only hold your hands over your eyes in front of someone for so long before they forcibly pull them and make you look.

[2GOLD 0]

And I don't know if this was ever posted, but this is the report from the BBC news in 1993 about the bombing. Tell me if a certain quote doesn't JUMP the fuck out at you.

 

World Trade Center bomb terrorises New York

A suspected car bomb has exploded underneath the World Trade Center in New York killing at least five people and injuring scores more.

 

The bombing has shocked America which had seemed immune from acts of terrorism that have plagued other parts of the world.

 

An emotional Mario Cuomo, New York's state governor, told journalists: "We all have that feeling of being violated. No foreign people or force has ever done this to us. Until now we were invulnerable."

 

The immense blast happened at 1218 local time in the Secret Service's section of the car park underneath and between what are New York's tallest buildings.

 

It left a gaping hole in the wall above the Path underground station. Most of those who died are believed to have been crushed by the station ceiling.

 

It ripped through three floors of concrete, scattering ash and debris and set off a fire that sent choking smoke and flames up through one of the 110-story "Twin Towers".

 

Total pandemonium

 

Thousands of office workers were trapped as smoke billowed up through the buildings.

 

With no working lifts or lighting there was total pandemonium.

 

People did not know whether to stay in their offices or brave the journey down via the smoke-filled stairwells.

 

"It felt like an airplane hit the building," said Bruce Pomper, a 34-year-old broker.

 

Desperate for air, some people smashed windows with office furniture.

 

Hundreds eventually poured out of the building gasping for air and covered in soot.

 

Rescue workers struggled to get oxygen to those in the upper floors. About 100,000 people work in and visit the 1,700ft towers every day - the blast happened at their busiest time.

 

Several people have called New York's police claiming they were behind the attack but authorities are keeping an open mind about possible suspects.

 

Now, you can have your conspiracy theory.

ETA: I made it jump out.

And just in case, the link

BBC on this day, 1993

[Big Ol' Smitty 0]

I dunno about the 9/11 stuff, but I think it is very wise not to blindly trust the government. Look at all the real conspiracies throughout American history that have turned out to be true.

 

The Aaron Burr conspiracy.

 

The "Business Plot" to overthrow FDR.

 

The Tuskegee syphilis experiments.

 

The FBI's COINTELPRO operations against domestic dissidents.

 

The CIA's MKULTURA mind control experiments.

 

CIA involvement in foreign coups, such as Kermit Roosevelt in Iran.

 

The plan to fake terrorist attacks with Operation Northwoods.

 

The Gulf of Tonkin.

 

Forays into Cambodia.

 

Death squads in Central America.

 

The Contras dealing with cocaine.

 

The whole Iran-Contra deal.

 

et al ad infinitum

[Big Ol' Smitty 0]

Oh yeah...President Washington's electronic surveillance programs also...

[CheesalaIsGood 0]

I have to honestly question, would all of this conspiracy shit really be pushed so much by certain people if it wasn't a REPUBLICAN administration in charge when 9/11 happened, or are the people who try and push these psychotic ramblings as legit just the type of crazy wackjobs who would believe in this total bullshit regardless?

 

 

Is it possible you are just projecting your own faults onto others?

[Dobbs 3K 0]

Well, the one point that is true is that government agencies were aware that the hijackers were in the US, although they apparently didn't know what they were up to, and didn't do anything about them.

[Slayer 0]

Don't forget the Philadelphia Experiment

[The Czech Republic 0]

what about the Alan Parsons Project

[Big Ol' Smitty 0]

Some sort of hovercraft, no?

[Art Sandusky 0]

Most of the 9/11 stuff is bunk to me, but there're still a few things here and there that actually warrant some examination. While I don't think the government actively planned it all out, it wouldn't surprise me if they allowed it to happen after knowing what was going to happen beforehand. Very little that's happened in the last five years has given me reason to trust the people in charge.

 

See, now that last sentence, coupled with your own political leanings, goes back to my initial question. You can say that it's mostly just the usual conspiracy headcases who believe in this bullshit, but something tells me that it's because a president of a particular political persuasion is in charge that makes people like you, at least on some level, say "Well, some of it could be possible......"

No, it really, really isn't that. If you take the actions afterward (trying to block the formation of a commission to investigate the event TWICE alone is a huge red flag) and it seemingly being the reason for a lot of controversial stuff the Executive branch has executed or endorsed since (Republicans are mighty pissed about the wiretapping also), there are some real questions that can be asked. My rage is gradually being channeled more towards the neo-con, "guns, gays, and God" segment rather than the Republicans as a whole, pretty much ever since Katrina.

[Big Ol' Smitty 0]

neocon=/=guns, gays, God

[Slayer 0]

what about the Alan Parsons Project

You can't be sirius

[CheesalaIsGood 0]

Most of the 9/11 stuff is bunk to me, but there're still a few things here and there that actually warrant some examination. While I don't think the government actively planned it all out, it wouldn't surprise me if they allowed it to happen after knowing what was going to happen beforehand. Very little that's happened in the last five years has given me reason to trust the people in charge.

 

See, now that last sentence, coupled with your own political leanings, goes back to my initial question. You can say that it's mostly just the usual conspiracy headcases who believe in this bullshit, but something tells me that it's because a president of a particular political persuasion is in charge that makes people like you, at least on some level, say "Well, some of it could be possible......"

 

 

So watch it and see for yourself. If it is so obvious that it is untrue then defend your position. COnsidering YOUR position why would it not be just as easy for us to write you off as a Bush defending headcase believing in the admins bullshit? Could it be that "a president of a particular political persuasion is in charge"?

 

The doc. itself really isn't that good in its presentation. The voice over guy is terrible. To it's credit, there IS alot of information to take in and consider. They at least did their homework citing all their sources, asking alot of questions, and providing plenty of "answers".

[Art Sandusky 0]

To further prove my specific point above about the executive branch (and the positions it appoints), today was "how we saved Los Angeles day," right after Alberto Gonzales is grilled expertly by a bipartisan group of pissed off senators who want to know what the fuck was so hard about going back and getting warrants after the wiretapping, since the law works that way and all. By the way, the thwarted terrorists were of southeast Asian descent apparently. I guess the people in Indonesia will let us have their oil with less of a fight.

 

Remember all the times that terror alert level escalations have had dubious timing also, most questionably in the days following the 2004 Democratic convention, which happened one of the few things the Dems managed not to fuck up during the campaign. And hey, we got that bin Laden tape a week before the 2004 election too. He was able to release this because we decided Iraq was more important than the people who actually attacked us. He's far more useful alive than dead, so don't expect him to be captured or killed anytime between now and 2008. In the meantime, there'll be plenty of ammo to drum up support for this lunacy.

 

Then you've got the White House E-mails from the summer of 2003 that were deleted (a no-no, all correspondence and documents are required to be saved) and were found by, get this, the defense team for Scooter Libby.

 

And that's just in the last couple of weeks! This is not a crew that's genuinely working in the best interests of everyone.

[Stephen Joseph 0]

You want refutation? I drudge this up

 

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html

 

There is no conspiracy

[Big Ol' Smitty 0]

I can't comment on the validity of the Popular Mechanics article because I'm not an engineer, etc. but it does take on a decidedly subjective tone at times:

 

Healthy skepticism, it seems, has curdled into paranoia. Wild conspiracy tales are peddled daily on the Internet, talk radio and in other media

 

As outlandish as these claims may sound, they are increasingly accepted abroad and among extremists here in the United States.

 

Others are the byproducts of cynical imaginations that aim to inject suspicion and animosity into public debate. Only by confronting such poisonous claims with irrefutable facts can we understand what really happened on a day that is forever seared into world history.--

 

That just doesn't sound like the language of someone looking at these things objectively.

 

Couple that with the fact that the lead researcher for the piece was Benjamin Chertoff, Homeland Security Director Michael's cousin, and you have yourself a dubious debunking.

[Dr. Zaius 0]

I have to honestly question, would all of this conspiracy shit really be pushed so much by certain people if it wasn't a REPUBLICAN administration in charge when 9/11 happened, or are the people who try and push these psychotic ramblings as legit just the type of crazy wackjobs who would believe in this total bullshit regardless?

 

Given how many conspiracy theories there were about both the Oklahoma City bombing and the incident in Waco, I would say psychotic ramblings are a bipartisan affair.

[Stephen Joseph 0]

It's POPULAR MECHANICS!

 

You'd think if they were wrong, SOMEONE would call them on it, since well, millions of people read them.

 

You can't REFUTE an argument because some of the language is suspect

 

Go ahead, believe in your whacky theories

[Vyce 0]

I dunno about the 9/11 stuff, but I think it is very wise not to blindly trust the government. Look at all the real conspiracies throughout American history that have turned out to be true.

 

No, I agree, but I'm not suggesting blindly trusting the government (although certain tired hacks here might think otherwise). In regards to the 9/11 'stuff', the conspiracy theory that the government was behind it would have to be so incredibly complicated and, as the Popular Mechanics article points out, you would have to totally contradict real physics (not to mention logic) in order for it to be true, and while I do think that for the most part conspiracy theorists are equal opportunity wackjobs (that is to say, believe this shit regardless of who's in office), I suspect there is a certain percentage that is willing to believe this particular theory because it fits in with their own conceived notions that the Bush administration is 'evil' and would gleefully do this to their own people. For oil or some other bullshit, I suppose. It's not a wild accusation on my part. There's quite a few people like, if I may go back in history and name drop here, ol' Frank Zappa Mask (or hunger/INXS), who would believe in it. Hell, that PM article says that out of 3,000 books on 9/11 most (MOST!) reject that Osama Bin Laden / hijackers carried it out.

[Big Ol' Smitty 0]

I agree that a conspiracy theory for 9/11 is very unlikely. The "official" story seems far more plausible than any other theory.

 

I was just suggesting that that Popular Mechanics piece isn't really that good and it's objectivity is questionable. I would look elsewhere for debunkings.