Lei Tong Posted May 9, 2006 Report Posted May 9, 2006 Shinya Aoki is one of the 3 best BJJ'ers in MMA.
AboveAverage484 Posted May 10, 2006 Report Posted May 10, 2006 I think Hughes should just stand the whole fight and knock Royce out. It's not like Royce has the takedown ability of Ricardo Arona or Paulo Filho. Here's another outlandish statement (but only for Lei): Fedor, not Kid, is the best pound for pound fighter in the world.
Lei Tong Posted May 10, 2006 Report Posted May 10, 2006 Actually, Kid comes in around 6-7 on my list. Hughes & Fedor switch a good deal in my mind, with Penn having lost the top spot along with his desire to excel.
AboveAverage484 Posted May 10, 2006 Report Posted May 10, 2006 Actually, Kid comes in around 6-7 on my list. Hughes & Fedor switch a good deal in my mind, with Penn having lost the top spot along with his desire to excel. Ok, I just assumed he was no. 1 since your pimping him in your sig, no biggie. I think Fedor is probably number one if only because... Wait, I just found another outlandish statement; the welterweight division is the weakest division (155 and up) in MMA.
Lei Tong Posted May 10, 2006 Report Posted May 10, 2006 Laughable. Welterweight has arguably 3 Top 5 pound for pound fighters, and a bazillion solid fighters abroad. The correct answer is middleweight, with Rich Franklin being pretty much the only standout fighter in the whole division.
Lei Tong Posted May 10, 2006 Report Posted May 10, 2006 If cutting weight were more commonly practiced, no less than a dozen Japanese fighters (that currently don't) could enjoy Top Ten (or higher) status.
Guest Brian Posted May 10, 2006 Report Posted May 10, 2006 If cutting weight were more commonly practiced, no less than a dozen Japanese fighters (that currently don't) could enjoy Top Ten (or higher) status. Who are you thinking would drop that don't?
Lei Tong Posted May 10, 2006 Report Posted May 10, 2006 Actually, I should've said even higher than they already are (since some are already considered Top 10). - Shinya Aoki - Mitsuhiro Ishida - Akihiro Gono - Sanae Kikuta - Norifumi Yamamoto - Koutetsu Boku - Kuniyoshi Hironaka - Satoru Kitaoka - Katsuya Inoue - Ganjo Tentsuku - Yushin Okami - Shungo Oyama (!)
Your Paragon of Virtue Posted May 10, 2006 Author Report Posted May 10, 2006 Actually, I should've said even higher than they already are (since some are already considered Top 10). - Shungo Oyama (!) That's outlandish right there. Regarding AOki: BJ Penn, Matt Serra, Shaolin.
Lei Tong Posted May 10, 2006 Report Posted May 10, 2006 I was actually going to go with Kaz Nakamura, but figured 'ol Shungo would be better considering the topic. I actually think Oyama is semi-well rounded enough that he would give a number of 183lbs. fighters a lot of problems, as opposed to either rolling over or getting rolled over by various HW's. Also, I give Aoki a slight edge over BJ because I believe that the difference in the guard game of each (advantage to Aoki) is larger than the difference in the top game of each (advantage BJ). As for Serra... well, he hasn't really submitted anyone of note in his MMA career. No one doubts his sport BJJ accomplishments, but he hasn't been able to transfer those abilities into an MMA skillset. My list: 1) Vitor Ribeiro 2) Alexandre Franca Noguiera 3) Shinya Aoki 4) Antonio Rodrigo Noguiera 5) BJ Penn Of course it's completely subjective, though I think these 5 have strong cases for them.
Your Paragon of Virtue Posted May 10, 2006 Author Report Posted May 10, 2006 If you're talking just MMA, well Matt LIndland has choked two BJJ Black belts as of late. Antonio Rodrigo Noguiera has submitted tons of guys too, but I didn't include him because his sport BJJ accomplishments aren't so great. You'd really put Shaolin at the top? I wouldn't have guessed that he was the absolute best, but I guess he has proven to submit many other guys in the toughest weight class to do it in, especially against other top submissions guys in Strebrendt and Hansen.
Lei Tong Posted May 10, 2006 Report Posted May 10, 2006 I put Shaolin at the top because not only does he have one of the most dominating top games in MMA, but also has shown a slick guard game as well. It's not always pretty (though I'm sure the Nova Uniao guys believe side control is a beautiful art form), but you can't really argue with results.
Your Paragon of Virtue Posted May 12, 2006 Author Report Posted May 12, 2006 The day after UFC 39 Ricco Rodriguez deserved to be the top ranked Heavyweight in the world.
AboveAverage484 Posted May 12, 2006 Report Posted May 12, 2006 Unless I'm getting my time periods mixed up, I would still have Nogueira and maybe Barnett ahead of him. This was a real dry period for HW's.
I like Forums Posted May 13, 2006 Report Posted May 13, 2006 How about this: If Nog fought Fedor with no time limits Nogueira would beat him.
Lord of The Curry Posted May 13, 2006 Report Posted May 13, 2006 All that means is that we'd finally see Nog get KO'd in a brutal fashion.
I like Forums Posted May 13, 2006 Report Posted May 13, 2006 He usually recovers very well after getting rocked. I think it would just be a matter of time until he caught Fedor in some submission.
Lt. Al Giardello Posted May 13, 2006 Report Posted May 13, 2006 I think KOing Fedor is impossible. Kevin Randleman damn near broke his neck, and right after he made him tap.
AboveAverage484 Posted May 13, 2006 Report Posted May 13, 2006 I'm sure Fedor would change his gameplan in accordance with the no time-limit. He would find some way to use it to his advantage.
Your Paragon of Virtue Posted May 16, 2006 Author Report Posted May 16, 2006 Tito Ortiz would beat Chuck Liddell in a rematch.
Lt. Al Giardello Posted May 16, 2006 Report Posted May 16, 2006 Tito Ortiz would beat Chuck Liddell in a rematch. I agree. The 1st fight Tito was stupid enough thinking he can beat Chuck, standing up. This time I think he will wrestle him more and get him to the ground.
Lord of The Curry Posted May 16, 2006 Report Posted May 16, 2006 I'll go the exact opposite route and say that Chuck would finish him in the first round. Only way Tito wins this one is by decison.
Your Paragon of Virtue Posted May 16, 2006 Author Report Posted May 16, 2006 I see three outcomes to this fight. Chuck winning by KO early, Tito winning by TKO late, or Tito winning a decision. The last two together have a higher chance of giving Tito the victory. His standup defense has much improved (which is what matters since he probably won't bother trying to KO Chuck on the feet) and if he puts Chuck on his back, which he's more than capable of, this fight is finished.
RavishingRickRudo Posted May 16, 2006 Report Posted May 16, 2006 There was nothing in Titos fights against Forrest and Vitor that showed he wouldn't get tagged by Chuck again.
Your Paragon of Virtue Posted May 16, 2006 Author Report Posted May 16, 2006 He barely got tagged by both. In the second round VItor got him good, but in that supposed flurry from the first he barely got touched. Chuck's style is different, he throws more bombs than those guys, who like the flurry, especially Vitor. I think Tito can fight a patient fight to avoid that bomb. I think people are underestimating the effects that Tito's knee injury had on his striking/cardio in the last fight.
Lei Tong Posted May 16, 2006 Report Posted May 16, 2006 Future MMA generations will shit on Couture, Wanderlei, Sak & Henderson.
RavishingRickRudo Posted May 16, 2006 Report Posted May 16, 2006 I agree on all of those guys other than Sak. He's been on such a downward spiral that I can't imagine people rejecting him any more or time hurting him. His story has pretty much been written, so I don't think future generations will see anything differently than us. Couture is pretty much definite. Given his record and his most notable wins, there will almost certainly be a backlash given those perspectives. If you look at Coutures career fights - vs. Belfort, vs. Liddell, vs. Rizzo, vs. Smith, vs. Randleman, vs. Ortiz - those will only be more devalued over time. Rizzo has been a total bust since he gave Randy fits, Randleman and Belfort too, Ortiz a lil less so, and the 2 losses to Liddell sorta taint his big win in 03. So what were, at the time, impressive wins, become less so looking back.
Lei Tong Posted May 16, 2006 Report Posted May 16, 2006 I agree on all of those guys other than Sak. He's been on such a downward spiral that I can't imagine people rejecting him any more or time hurting him. His story has pretty much been written, so I don't think future generations will see anything differently than us. Well, people still don't realize that his resume largely sucks, and that some pure luck kept 3 losses off his record early (vs. Belfort, Goes & Mezger). 4 Gracies beaten? Too bad only one was worth a damn (Renzo). He beat Newton & White? So did nearly half of their opponents. I'll say Sak has 3 good wins (Renzo, Braga & Jackson) and a whole lot of nothing else.
RavishingRickRudo Posted May 17, 2006 Report Posted May 17, 2006 I think people see him as a creative, entertaining fighter who sorta destroyed the Gracie family legacy and helped usher in a new era for fighting (partially by being PRIDES big star, partially by his fighting style). I don't know how many people looked at him as a top, top fighter like people saw, say, Noguiera. Sak wasn't tremendously dominating - he wasn't brutal. So it wasn't like he was a wrecking machine. He was a fun, goofy fighter, and that's a more universal, timeless, quality.
I like Forums Posted May 17, 2006 Report Posted May 17, 2006 I actually agree with Rudo on Sakuraba. I see him more as someone who was an entertaining fighter, and tried a lot of creative things. It wasn't about *who* Sakuraba beat, it was about how he fought. He's a showman. Destroying the Gracie mythology has historical significance as well even if its not too impressive by today's standards.
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