Things that bothered you in great matches..

[World's Worst Man 0]

Because IM's are won by the most total falls, no matter how you accumulate them.

 

Anyway, another puro example to look at... Misawa/Kobashi 1/20/97:

 

As a big fan of both guys, I really hate to bash what many call their best match together, but I absolutely hate the finish to this one. The match is damn near perfect until the last 15 minutes or so. It drops to just great when Misawa starts no-selling the vicious arm-work, but still no major complaints (because hey, it's Misawa) until the final sequence. I know Kobashi's the ulitmate "never say die" fighting spirit kind of guy, but him kicking out of the TD91, then standing back up after the TS85 completely ruined the match for me. It didn't help that the real finish was a freaking running elbow with the injured arm. So you basically discredit Misawa's two killer moves back-to-back just so you can piss all over the psychology? Nuts to that. 10/21/97 forever.

 

I think the point of the finish was that Kobashi was so dead that anything would have beaten him. As for the arm work, IIRC, Misawa's arm hadn't been worked on for something like 15-20 minutes by the time the finish came. Misawa had a lot of time to recuperate, so I don't see the arm work really being an issue.

 

And IIRC, 10/21/97 had some straight up no-selling/delayed selling. As a matter of fact, I actually thought that match was better than 1/20/97 until that lapse in selling.

[Guest wildpegasus]

As much as I like Bobby Heenan, I really hate him saying "Whose side is he on ?" before the Hogan turn.

 

 

I'm sure I've said this before, but it makes perfect sense.

 

Whether Hogan was a hell or face, or whether Heenan was a heel or face, Heenan always hated Hogan.

 

He hates the dude in real life, and he's always been against him as an announcer or manager.

 

It's like one of the longest fueds ever, Heenan never trusted Hogan in any way, so it makes sense that he would question his loyalty here, like he had always done.

 

I've heard that Hogan and Heenan were great friends in real life. Hogan even thanked Heenan telling him that he'd never be quite the star he was if it wasn't for him.

 

 

For real?

 

They might be good friends, but still.

 

Throughout Hogan's entire career, WWF to WCW, Heenan was on commentary dissin' him, or managing people fighting him.

 

So anyone who followed the shows would know that.

 

Not to mention Heenan always badmouthing Hogan in the Apter Mags and shit.

 

Plus, Heenan yelled,"I told you! I told you! You can't trust Hulk hogan. I've never liked him!" and other things on multiple shows right after that.

 

I know one time, tony just said, "That you have Bobby, that you have." and went back to babbling about nonsense.

 

The funny thing is I think Heenan's commentary made me less of a Hogan fan.

 

I've listened to a lot of Heenan over the year. There are a few instances where you can clearly tell his intentions were to put Hogan over.

 

Heenan revealed that he and Hulk Hogan are actually friends in real life despite being sworn adversaries on-camera. Throughout most of his career in the WWF and WCW, Heenan would stay "in character" and lead people to believe that he and Hogan never got along and he hated him. Heenan said that it was all "good acting."

 

Found that on a quick google search. Hogan also wrote an introduction to one of Heenan's books.

[FroGG_NeaL 0]

Yeah, I remamber that now, the book intro and shit.

 

That's just one more little thing that makes Heenan the best ever.

[Just John 0]

I always thought of the 10/21 match as a simpler match that worked because they didn't try to do as much in terms of making the match complex. By that point, they had teamed together and fought each other enough that they knew this would be an all-out war. So, from the bell, it's just each guy going for big moves in an attempt to put the other away. It's a lot of back-and-forth, "I'm gonna hit you with whatever I can" kind of fighting that favors both guys' styles. They get to hit and kick out of lots of impressive moves without having to worry about things like long term selling because it's just one random move after another.

 

Anyway, back to 1/20... Yeah, I get the whole "straw that breaks the camel's back" thing with the elbow finish, but why do it? It's anti-climactic and hurts the rep of the TD91. And standing back up after the TS85 on top of that? Just too much for me. Those two moves back to back should be enough to keep someone down. I could be more forgiving if the elbow came right after the TD91, as it would've been like WP's Street Fighter analogy. But throwing the TS85 in the middle was going overboard. Yes, you could just push the straw/camel thing back a step, but at some point it has to become overkill, right?

 

And as for arm work... It's not as big of a deal, as I know stuff like this gets shrugged off all the time. And hey, one time Kawada worked most of a match with a broken arm legit and didn't really "sell" it. My main problem is that the point of Kobashi working the right arm would presumably be to slow down the elbow assault and/or make it hard to execute the Tiger Driver. Could've been a nice element to the story, but Misawa shakes off 10 minutes of arm work after about 2 elbow shots, thus making the work pointless since it doesn't factor into the story in a meaningful way. The fact that he used the injured arm in the finish was just ironic icing on the cake.

[World's Worst Man 0]

Anyway, back to 1/20... Yeah, I get the whole "straw that breaks the camel's back" thing with the elbow finish, but why do it? It's anti-climactic and hurts the rep of the TD91. And standing back up after the TS85 on top of that? Just too much for me. Those two moves back to back should be enough to keep someone down. I could be more forgiving if the elbow came right after the TD91, as it would've been like WP's Street Fighter analogy. But throwing the TS85 in the middle was going overboard. Yes, you could just push the straw/camel thing back a step, but at some point it has to become overkill, right?

 

It was probably done specifically to get Kobashi over as being the toughest guy in pro wrestling, a reputation he still has today. I mean, Kobashi was like one in a million. He was incredibly talented and someone decided to book him in such a way that would cement his superman status forever. It's not the sort of thing that happened regularly, if at all, outside this scenario. Of course today, every top guy just straight out no-sells high-end offense like it's going out of style. But back in '97, that wasn't the case. So yea, I don't have a problem with how it was booked, since it was such a unique situation.

 

And as for arm work... It's not as big of a deal, as I know stuff like this gets shrugged off all the time. And hey, one time Kawada worked most of a match with a broken arm legit and didn't really "sell" it. My main problem is that the point of Kobashi working the right arm would presumably be to slow down the elbow assault and/or make it hard to execute the Tiger Driver. Could've been a nice element to the story, but Misawa shakes off 10 minutes of arm work after about 2 elbow shots, thus making the work pointless since it doesn't factor into the story in a meaningful way. The fact that he used the injured arm in the finish was just ironic icing on the cake.

 

Yea, it did end up being kind of pointless. The reasoning behind the strategy was sound, it just didn't lead to anything at all. I wonder if they played up any reason why Kobashi stopped the arm work. I've seen matches where a body part is worked on, and then dropped because another opportunity presents itself. Oh well, something I'll keep in mind next time I watch the match.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

"I've heard that as well. I don't think it's playing off the previous match per se, as much as it's just a gimmick to use in the later stages of a match to cue a comeback. "

 

Which is why Misawa only used it against Kawada. Of course it's their version of the traditional face comeback but I don't think it's ever been done that well.

 

Again, you ignore that Misawa blocked the kicks before coming back anyway.

 

"Whatever convoluted reasoning someone wants to come up with (I don't mean you), "

 

I don't think Misawa simply being far superior is convoluted, it's fairly straightforward and the basis for their entire fued.

 

"Yea, it did end up being kind of pointless. The reasoning behind the strategy was sound, it just didn't lead to anything at all."

 

It gave Kobashi a crutch to put Misawa in peril. Everyone knew that Kobashi was dropping the title to Misawa but the injury gave the fans doubt and resulted in Orange Crush's hottest run of nearfalls/submissions. I think he get's more heat for the Fujiwara Armbar than the Powerbomb variants at the end.

 

"I wonder if they played up any reason why Kobashi stopped the arm work. "

 

Kobashi seemed to have stretched the arm work as far as it could go and went for the Lariat only to injure his own arm.

 

"Misawa shakes off 10 minutes of arm work after about 2 elbow shots, thus making the work pointless since it doesn't factor into the story in a meaningful way. "

 

"My main problem is that the point of Kobashi working the right arm would presumably be to slow down the elbow assault and/or make it hard to execute the Tiger Driver."

 

I guess you missed the Tiger Driver pin badly failing because of his arm.

[Aero 0]

I know that. I mean if the match is decided on a DQ, then why did the title change hands.

 

Simply because a decision is a decision in iron man matches. You win by getting more decisions over the other person.

 

I know some people loved the psychology of it, but in that IM match at Judgment Day, I really didn't care for HHH getting the DQ with the chair to get a quick pin right after. It was unique, but he still didn't get any net positive result out of it.

 

In the sense of number of decisions, it gets HHH nowhere, but the chairshot weakens Rock even more, giving HHH the advantage for the rest of the match. While many matches don't regard chairshots as a very serious blow, this one does.

[CanadianChris 0]

On the original topic -- I thought Savage/Steamboat was perfectly done. What's the best way for Steamboat to take his revenge on Savage? By taking away the thing that means the most to him, the Intercontinental title. What's the best way for Steamboat to do that? By outwrestling him. Him brawling with Savage wouldn't have fit his character at all.

 

On DiBiase at the 92 Rumble - I read somewhere that he was injured and had to get out quickly.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

I HATE the finish to Mankind/Michaels Mindgames. A cheap DQ, that I've heard rumored was changed on the fly.

 

The DQ was fine, and pretty common for matches at that level at that time. The problem was that Vader took forever coming down the isle, and it was very obvious that Michaels and the ref were stalling for time.

 

 

Tully Blanchard squealing 'YES!' instead of 'I QUIT' in his Starrcade match with Magnum.

Think about it for a moment. You're in a cage with your most hated enemy and he's jamming a large wooden stake around your eye. Are you really going to stop and think about what exactly you have to say to get out of that predicament?

 

As for Heenan, he spoke highly of Hogan in his autobiography. I think his wrestling hatred of Hulk Hogan was entirely a face/heel dynamic. After all, Heenan made a TON of money in the '80s playing heel manager against Hogan, both in the WWF and in the AWA managing Bockwinkel.

[snuffbox 0]

Yeah, saying "I Quit" would have been so much more difficult to say than "YES".

[Just John 0]

I guess you missed the Tiger Driver pin badly failing because of his arm.

 

I guess. I wasn't really looking for any continued selling at that point since Misawa had hit about 20 elbow shots by then without flinching.

[JimmyHendricks 0]

Going back to the "Who's side is he on?" deal with Heenan....I always had a problem with it as well. I mean, I saw it for the first time knowing that Hogan had turned heel. It's just that at the moment Heenan said that, you weren't supposed to be thinking anything other than that Hogan was going to come down there and tear Hall and Nash apart. American Hero Super Babyface Forever Hulk Hogan was going to save WCW---which would have made it all the more shocking when he turned once getting in the ring.

 

Heenan saying that line made you think about Hogan turning heel, thus taking away from the moment. You would say, "Holy shit, Heenan is right! Hogan's the third man!", when you were supposed to get that reaction after he legdropped Savage. You can almost hear Tony and Dusty's "Jesus Bobby, why did you say THAT?" in their reactions to Heenan's comment.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

Come on, Heenan was always saying stuff like that as a heel commentator. I think criticizing that call is being pretty nit-picky.

[Guest TheGameah]

Come on, Heenan was always saying stuff like that as a heel commentator. I think criticizing that call is being pretty nit-picky.

 

There's the difference between playing the heel announcer during everyday matches, and hinting at what could potentially be called one of the biggest swerves in wrestling history when Hogan turned on WCW. In a moment like that, it would probably have been better for Heenan to shut his mouth and let the face announcers put Hogan over.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

I guess you missed the Tiger Driver pin badly failing because of his arm.

 

I guess. I wasn't really looking for any continued selling at that point since Misawa had hit about 20 elbow shots by then without flinching.

 

I'm not gonna walk you through it because I shouldn't have to but Misawa is selling the arm throughout his entire offensive run following the peril. I also recall him going out of his way to avoid using it by doing leg offense like a Twisting Dropkick and Pescado Leg attack he wasn't known for to buy his arm recovery time. And how does he try to finish Kobashi off after his arm gives out on the Tiger Driver? The Diving Neckbreaker Drop that uses his left arm which plays right into Kobash's hands, given him a huge opening to put Misawa in serious peril. Not pointless at all.

 

Misawa isn't gonna stop using the arm completely because it's just part of his character. Him going on to win with the elbow is kind of a "you can't stop me." gesture at the end. I'm sure some will find that "convoluted" but that's how the psychology in the company works. If that offends you and you think Misawa should have won with a kick or something, than stay clear of All Japan as it's a common drama device in their matches. The fans want to see the face fight throught the pain and overcome, not run from it and work around it.

[FroGG_NeaL 0]

Dude, no body gave a flying fuck.

 

Hulk fuckin Hogan was comin to the ring to save the fuckin' day, the crowd was rabid, the went fucking beserk when Hogan turned.

 

Anybody watching it would have just thought, yeah right, Bobby. You always say that shit.

 

But anyway, let's say that one line was bad. If a one liner by Bobby Heenan, shit he'd said about hogan for years, then the other commentaters telling him he's nuts, Hogan is God, blah,blah,blah, like whoever was on commentary with him would do every other time he'd put down Hogan...

 

If that's the only thing ya got to dislike about it, have at it.

 

It's still the best heel turn in the history of proffessional wrestling to me.

[JimmyHendricks 0]

Heenan's comment is like if someone went up to Luke early on in "The Empire Strikes Back" and said "Hey Luke, do you think there's a chance that Darth Vader might be your father?"

[Black Lushus 0]

no fucking way man...not even close!

 

Heenan was into character...he always accused Hogan of cheating, questioned his true motives.

[JimmyHendricks 0]

Yes, but he just said it at the wrong time. You weren't supposed to be thinking anything other than "Hulk Hogan is coming down to help WCW". Instead you thought, "COULD he be the 3rd man?"

 

Whether it was his character or not, Heenan just should have stayed quiet.

[cabbageboy 0]

Nah, I don't think that at all. What you suggest sounds like if Mean Gene was reporting from the back in the first hour of the PPV and said "Gee, I heard Hall and Nash talking with the 3rd man. I'm not sure who it is but he said 'brother' a lot."

[JimmyHendricks 0]

Nah, I don't think that at all. What you suggest sounds like if Mean Gene was reporting from the back in the first hour of the PPV and said "Gee, I heard Hall and Nash talking with the 3rd man. I'm not sure who it is but he said 'brother' a lot."

 

Yes. Now take what you said and condense it down into 15 seconds and you have what I think about Heenan's comment.

[The Amazing Rando 0]

It really is a "20/20 hindsight" thing...as i didn't think about it until after it had happened and saw the clips of it. At the time, it was just Bobby being Bobby. After it happened, it was like "wait, what did Heenan just say?"

[FroGG_NeaL 0]

no fucking way man...not even close!

 

Heenan was into character...he always accused Hogan of cheating, questioned his true motives.

 

 

Thank you, dude.

 

Finally someone who understands the brilliance of Heenan.

[MillenniumMan831 0]

Remember, in the weeks leading up to the match . . . ANYBODY could have been the 3rd man.

 

Plus, if anything, that comment probably meant Hogan wasn't going to turn. I mean how many times are announcers wrong about anything? Too many to count. "ONETWOHEGOTHIMNOHEDIDNT" Or when announcers think the plucky underdog will pull off the upset only to get beat.

 

I had/have ZERO problem with the comment. Dusty and Tony selling it as if he was full of shit was perfect as well.

[Just John 0]

I always wondered what if Bobby said something like "I never thought I'd say this, but I'm glad to see Hogan right now!" I think more people would've bitched about that telegraphing the turn more than his real comment. Announcers using reverse psychology is the biggest giveaway in wrestling.

[Masked Man of Mystery 0]

I always wondered what if Bobby said something like "I never thought I'd say this, but I'm glad to see Hogan right now!" I think more people would've bitched about that telegraphing the turn more than his real comment. Announcers using reverse psychology is the biggest giveaway in wrestling.

See, that would've given it away more than what Heenan said, what he ended up saying was the typical anti Hogan stuff he always said, he always thought Hogan had a dark side

[Coffin Surfer 0]

"guess. I wasn't really looking for any continued selling at that point since Misawa had hit about 20 elbow shots by then without flinching."

 

Not sure if anyone cares anymore but after watching the match in question for the first time in a while I can say that Misawa only hits two elbows after the initial arm work. He sells the arm heavily after both. Perhaps, your thinking of the wrong match as they did meet several times and they used a great deal of arm work in several of them.

 

Misawa uses more elbows during his final run some time later but continues to sell and uses his left arm far more than he usually does(actually resulting in Kobashi openings). He's even holding it after the Tiger Driver 91. He even sells it after the final elbow during the post match stuff. I really dig how he pumps himself before the final elbow, like "this is gonna hurt like hell but it's the only way." I can say this might be one of the best selling performances ever actually now that I think about it.

 

I know how you feel though I thought the same thing when I first saw the match ages ago. I was fixated on "limb psychology" always met the limb was dead after being worked on and was confused by the finish. Though it sounds cliche, you just have to keep an open mind, forget the story you want the wrestlers to tale and understand the story they are actually trying to tale.

[Just John 0]

I re-watched the match myself, and yeah, it's not nearly as offensive as I remembered. A few elbow toward the end don't get much attention, but still not too bad. I know on the internet you're not supposed to do this, but... Um, I was wrong. Maybe I am thinking of a different match.

 

I still don't like the TD91/TS85 back-to-back overkill, but that's just something it looks like no one will agree on.

[Guest Frank_Nabbit]

[n/m

[Maztinho 0]

Think about it for a moment. You're in a cage with your most hated enemy and he's jamming a large wooden stake around your eye. Are you really going to stop and think about what exactly you have to say to get out of that predicament?

 

Wasn't Magnum screaming something to the effect of "YOU GIVE UP?" So Tully's response would make sense. Or even if the referee was asking it. He was responding to a question.