4,000 dead Americans

[SuperJerk 0]

Wait, you actually think that by changing the label given to their mission that the idiots over there will stop setting up roadside bombs? Do you really think that the supply and support vehicles that are most often hit no longer will be, simply because a different term, in English, has been given for what they are doing?

 

No, I am talking about what the actions of the government should actually be, regardless of what you call it. The words I use mean things, and I didn't just call it something different...I was describing a different strategy.

 

I'm saying that a significant withdrawal of soldiers may be enough to show many of the radical groups that we aren't interested in making their country a imperial protectorate of the U.S. government, and that only keeping troops there as a contingency in case the Iraqi government becomes overwelmed. Responsibility for peacekeeping would then shift to the elected Iraqi government, a move that by itself might help bring less violence because it'll no longer look like a foreign occupation. I don't know if 60,000 is the right number, but immediately taking all troops out is too risky a gamble at this time. What Bush and McCain don't get is that so long as the current Iraqi government looks like a puppet of the U.S., it will never be completely accepted by the Iraqi people. But just leaving isn't an automatic recipe for success, because there are still too many different factions fighting for control. We have to use diplomacy to get ALL the ethnic and religious factions to realize they have a stake in the success of the Iraqi government, or some other peaceful government.

[NoCalMike 0]

Well the surge hasn't done anything to help the political process, all it has really done was prove a point no one was arguing in the first place which was that if you keep sending more troops over there, and build up a strong enough force, the enemy will run & hide and wait(of course then the counterpoint that it wasn't Al Qaeda fleeing so much as Iraqi insurgents, also will need to be pointed out) eventually the violence will descrease, but then what is the ultimate solution? To just have a bunch of troops there forever?

 

Also, I could go with the "lesser amount of troops might show some type of goodwill in order to get political process moving" argument, but even that has to have a timeline and benchmarks and a target for an end, because that can't really be an open ended agreement either or we are basically in the same situation now, just with less soldiers over there. And I still don't get why McCain gets away/a free pass when saying things like "come on guys we have troops in Germany, South Korea, etc etc" like that is somehow a great thing that we have to have troops stationed in other countries.

[SuperJerk 0]

Biden's plan is still my favorite.

[SuperJerk 0]

Iraqis: Deal close on plan for US troops to leave

Iraq and the U.S. are near an agreement on all American combat troops leaving Iraq by October 2010, with the last soldiers out three years after that, two Iraqi officials told The Associated Press on Thursday. U.S. officials, however, insisted no dates had been agreed.

 

The proposed agreement calls for Americans to hand over parts of Baghdad's Green Zone — where the U.S. Embassy is located — to the Iraqis by the end of 2008. It would also remove U.S. forces from Iraqi cities by June 30, 2009, according to the two senior officials, both close to Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki and familiar with the negotiations.

 

The officials, who spoke separately on condition of anonymity because the talks are ongoing, said all U.S. combat troops would leave Iraq by October 2010, with the remaining support personnel gone "around 2013." The schedule could be amended if both sides agree — a face-saving escape clause that would extend the presence of U.S. forces if security conditions warrant it.

 

U.S. acceptance — even tentatively — of a specific timeline would represent a dramatic reversal of American policy in place since the war began in March 2003.

 

Both Iraqi and American officials agreed that the deal is not final and that a major unresolved issue is the U.S. demand for immunity for U.S. soldiers from prosecution under Iraqi law.

 

Throughout the conflict, President Bush steadfastly refused to accept any timetable for bringing U.S. troops home. Last month, however, Bush and al-Maliki agreed to set a "general time horizon" for ending the U.S. mission.

 

Bush's shift to a timeline was seen as a move to speed agreement on a security pact governing the U.S. military presence in Iraq after the U.N. mandate expires at the end of the year.

 

Iraq's Shiite-led government has been holding firm for some sort of withdrawal schedule — a move the Iraqis said was essential to win parliamentary approval.

 

The U.S. Embassy in Baghdad declined to comment on details of the talks. Embassy spokeswoman Mirembe Nangtongo said the negotiations were taking place "in a constructive spirit" based on respect for Iraqi sovereignty.

 

In Washington, U.S. officials acknowledged that some progress has been made on the timelines for troop withdrawals but that the immunity issue remained a huge problem. One senior U.S. official close to the discussion said no dates have been agreed upon.

 

They spoke on condition of anonymity because the negotiations have not been finished.

 

But the Iraqis insisted the dates had been settled preliminarily between the two sides, although they acknowledged that nothing is final until the entire negotiations have been completed.

 

One Iraqi official said persuading the Americans to accept a timetable was a "key achievement" of the talks and that the government would seek parliamentary ratification as soon as the deal is signed.

 

But differences over immunity could scuttle the whole deal, the Iraqis said. One of the officials described immunity as a "minefield" and said each side was sticking by its position.

 

One official said U.S. negotiator David Satterfield told him that immunity for soldiers was a "red line" for the United States. The official said he replied that issue was "a red line for us too."

 

The official said the Iraqis were willing to grant immunity for actions committed on American bases and during combat operations — but not a blanket exemption from Iraqi law.

 

The Iraqis also want American forces hand over any Iraqi they detain. The U.S. insists that detainees must be "ready" for handover, which the Iraqi officials assume means the Americans want to interrogate them first.

 

As the talks drag on, American officials said the Bush administration is losing patience with the Iraqis over the negotiations, which both sides had hoped to wrap up by the end of July.

 

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and al-Maliki had a long and "very difficult" phone conversation about the situation on Wednesday during which she pressed the Iraqi leader for more flexibility particularly on immunity, one U.S. senior official said.

 

"The sovereignty issue is very big for the Iraqis and we understand that. But we are losing patience," the official said. "The process needs to get moving and get moving quickly."

 

The official could not say how long the call lasted but said it was "not brief" and "tense at times."

 

In London, Britain's defense ministry said it is also in talks with Iraq's government over the role of British troops after the U.N. mandate runs out. Prime Minister Gordon Brown recently said that early next year Britain will reduce its troops in Iraq, now at about 4,100, and that Britain's role in the country will change fundamentally.

 

Iraq's position in the U.S. talks hardened after a series of Iraqi military successes against Shiite and Sunni extremists in Basra, Baghdad, Mosul and other major cities and after the rise in world oil prices flooded the country with petrodollars.

 

As the government's confidence rose, Iraqi officials believed they were in a strong negotiating position — especially with the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, Sen. Barack Obama, pledging to remove all combat forces within his first 16 months in office if security conditions allow.

 

Standing firm against the Americans also enhances al-Maliki's nationalist credentials, enabling him to appeal for support from Iraqis long opposed to the U.S. presence.

 

On Thursday, a spokesman for Muqtada al-Sadr said the Shiite cleric will call on his fighters to maintain a cease-fire against American troops — but may lift the order if the security agreement fails to contain a timetable for a U.S. withdrawal.

 

The statement by Sheik Salah al-Obeidi came as al-Sadr planned to spell out details of a formula to reorganize his Mahdi Army militia by separating it into an unarmed cultural organization and elite fighting cells.

 

The announcement is expected during weekly Islamic prayer services on Friday.

 

"This move is meant to offer an incentive for the foreign forces to withdraw," al-Obeidi said. "The special cells of fighters will not strike against foreign forces until the situation becomes clear vis-a-vis the Iraq-U.S. agreement on the presence of American forces here."

 

Several cease-fires by al-Sadr have been key to a sharp decline in violence over the past year. But American officials still consider his militiamen a threat and have backed the Iraqi military in operations to try to oust them from their power bases in Baghdad and elsewhere in Iraq.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080807/ap_on_...a/iraq_us_bases

[At Home 0]

Nah, look, 2010 is just when they have the party.

[SuperJerk 0]

The Bush administration has conducted an extensive spying operation on Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, his staff and others in the Iraqi government, according to a new book by Washington Post associate editor Bob Woodward.

 

"We know everything he says," according to one of multiple sources Woodward cites about the practice in "The War Within: A Secret White House History, 2006-2008," scheduled for release Monday.

 

The book also says that the U.S. troop "surge" of 2007, in which President Bush sent nearly 30,000 additional U.S. combat forces and support troops to Iraq, was not the primary factor behind the steep drop in violence there during the past 16 months.

 

Rather, Woodward reports, "groundbreaking" new covert techniques enabled U.S. military and intelligence officials to locate, target and kill insurgent leaders and key individuals in extremist groups such as al-Qaeda in Iraq.

 

Read the rest of the article here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...ml?hpid=topnews

[NoCalMike 0]

Oh Geez....there still is an occupation going on in Iraq right? And the Surge is WORKING......right....RIGHT?

 

According to this study, ermm, NO!!!

 

Ethnic cleansing, not surge, key to drop in Iraq violence - study

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080919/sc_nm/iraq_lights_dc

 

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Satellite images taken at night show heavily Sunni Arab neighborhoods of Baghdad began emptying before a U.S. troop surge in 2007, graphic evidence of ethnic cleansing that preceded a drop in violence, according to a report published on Friday.

 

The images support the view of international refugee organizations and Iraq experts that a major population shift was a key factor in the decline in sectarian violence, particularly in the Iraqi capital, the epicenter of the bloodletting in which hundreds of thousands were killed.

 

Minority Sunni Arabs were driven out of many neighborhoods by Shi'ite militants enraged by the bombing of the Samarra mosque in February 2006. The bombing, blamed on the Sunni militant group al Qaeda, sparked a wave of sectarian violence.

 

"By the launch of the surge, many of the targets of conflict had either been killed or fled the country, and they turned off the lights when they left," geography professor John Agnew of the University of California Los Angeles, who led the study, said in a statement.

 

"Essentially, our interpretation is that violence has declined in Baghdad because of intercommunal violence that reached a climax as the surge was beginning," said Agnew, who studies ethnic conflict.

 

Some 2 million Iraqis are displaced within Iraq, while 2 million more have sought refuge in neighboring Syria and Jordan. Previously religiously mixed neighborhoods of Baghdad became homogenized Sunni or Shi'ite Muslim enclaves.

 

The study, published in the journal Environment and Planning A, provides more evidence of ethnic conflict in Iraq, which peaked just before U.S. President George W. Bush ordered the deployment of about 30,000 extra U.S. troops.

 

The extent to which the troop build-up helped halt Iraq's slide into sectarian civil war has been debated, particularly in the United States, with supporters of the surge saying it was the main contributing factor, and others arguing it was simply one of a number of factors.

 

"Our findings suggest that the surge has had no observable effect, except insofar as it has helped to provide a seal of approval for a process of ethno-sectarian neighborhood homogenization that is now largely achieved," Agnew's team wrote in their report.

 

Agnew's team used publicly available infrared night imagery from a weather satellite operated by the U.S. Air Force.

 

"The overall night light signature of Baghdad since the U.S. invasion appears to have increased between 2003 and 2006 and then declined dramatically from 20 March 2006 through 16 December 2007," their report said.

 

They said the night lights of Shi'ite-dominated Sadr City remained constant, as did lights in the Green Zone government and diplomatic compound in central Baghdad. Lights increased in the eastern New Baghdad district, another Shi'ite enclave.

 

Satellite studies have also been used to help document forced relocations in Myanmar and ethnic cleansing in Uganda.

 

(Reporting by Maggie Fox, editing by Ross Colvin)

 

 

[Jobber of the Week 0]

France24 uncovers NATO report, NATO denies the existence of it.

 

Basically, the Taliban are better armed than they used to be, and ten French soldiers killed in Afghanistan were out-gunned. NATO is denying the paperwork of this, but a Canadian newspaper first broke word of it and now a reporter with the French government's news agency is confirming it as well.

[Guest C*Z*E*C*H]

See, the reason I called you (Spicy Higgins) a neoconservative is that you are wholeheartedly defending the policy of attacking countries and forcing them to live under our political system.

Referring to Spicy McHaggis as "Spicy Higgins" is hysterical for reasons I can't pin down. I think he might be dead IRL.

[Guest Vitamin X]

INGREDIENTS

 

* 2 pounds skinless, boneless chicken breast halves - cubed

* 2 cups sliced carrots

* 2 cups frozen green peas

* 1 cup sliced celery

* 2/3 cup butter

* 2/3 cup chopped onion

* 2/3 cup all-purpose flour

* 1 teaspoon salt

* 1/2 teaspoon black pepper

* 1/2 teaspoon celery seed

* 3-1/2 cups chicken broth

* 1-1/3 cups milk

*

* 4 (9 inch) unbaked pie crusts

 

DIRECTIONS

 

1. Preheat oven to 425 degrees F (220 degrees C.)

2. In a saucepan, combine chicken, carrots, peas, and celery. Add water to cover and boil for 15 minutes. Remove from heat, drain and set aside.

3. In the saucepan over medium heat, cook onions in butter until soft and translucent. Stir in flour, salt, pepper, and celery seed. Slowly stir in chicken broth and milk. Simmer over medium-low heat until thick. Remove from heat and set aside.

4. Place the chicken mixture in bottom pie crust. Pour hot liquid mixture over. Cover with top crust, seal edges, and cut away excess dough. Make several small slits in the top to allow steam to escape.

5. Bake in the preheated oven for 30 to 35 minutes, or until pastry is golden brown and filling is bubbly. Cool for 10 minutes before serving.

 

Hey, this is pretty cool.

[Guest C*Z*E*C*H]

Nathan gave me that recipe; I still have to make that. Chicken Piss Pot Pie.

 

Oh shit, the myspace link for Spicy Higgins says "invalid friend ID." He might really be dead.

First, when I was born, average life expectancy was early teens. When I passed my early teens, average life expectancy was early 20s. Now that I'm 23, I'm supposed to die at 30. Granted, it would be extremely depressing if I was still posting on this message board in seven years, but if I am, I'll keep you all posted on my condition. From a pure medical perspective, those life expectancies are based on doing absolutely nothing to mitigate the effects of the disease. Respiratory & cardiac issues are what kill DMD patients. A low life expectancy is based on using no respiratory aids or heart medication.

 

:(:(

[bob_barron 0]

That's one less vote. Damn

[At Home 0]

...what

[Jobber of the Week 0]

And now for something completely different.

 

4,001 dead Americans, yeah?

[Guest Vitamin X]

That's one less vote. Damn

 

But one less USC fan, which is good.

[BUTT 0]

http://www.antsmarching.org/forum/showpost...postcount=29784

 

Don't fret, folks. Spicy Higgins is alive and well and likes him some DMB!

[NoCalMike 0]

U.S. intelligence warns Iraq war could explode again

 

The findings seem to cast doubts on McCain's frequent assertions that the United States is "on a path to victory" in Iraq by underscoring the deep uncertainties of the situation despite the 30,000-strong U.S. troop surge for which he was the leading congressional advocate.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/20081007...clatchy/3066066

 

but hey, if McCain keeps saying "The Surge is working...." then it MUST be true, and unfortunately the Dems don't seem to have to much to say either.

[SuperJerk 0]

Let's hope that report's wrong.

[NoCalMike 0]

Let's hope that report's wrong.

 

Well yeah, we can hope that the people that have been wrong on Iraq about everything so far have finally got something right.....

[snuffbox 0]

Law of Averages as foreign policy.

[SuperJerk 0]

Anyone else think the subtitle of this thread should be "Can't Be Wrong"?

 

 

[Guest Tzar Lysergic]

I'll roll with that.

[SuperJerk 0]

Reports: U.S. helicopters raid Syrian village

Residents, TV report two helicopters carrying U.S. soldiers kill seven people

BREAKING NEWS

The Associated Press

updated 1:38 p.m. CT, Sun., Oct. 26, 2008

 

DAMASCUS, Syria - U.S. military helicopters attacked an area along the country's border with Iraq, causing casualties, Syria's state-run television and witnesses said Sunday.

 

The TV report quoted unnamed Syrian officials and said the area is near the Syrian border town of Abu Kamal. It gave no other details on Sunday's attack.

 

Local residents told The Associated Press by telephone that two helicopters carrying U.S. soldiers raided the village of Hwijeh, 10 miles inside Syria's border, killing seven people and wounding five.

 

The U.S. military in Baghdad had no immediate comment.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27389245/

 

[CheesalaIsGood 0]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RwoFcLgxA0

 

Bush pardons himself?

[NoCalMike 0]

Iraq wants guaranteed US departure after 2011

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081030/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_iraq

 

 

 

Slideshow: Iraq Play Video Video: Big Issue: Searching for Peace AP Play Video Video: Big Issue: A stable Iraq AP AP – Local people gather outside a damaged shop as the owner sweeps debris inside after a parked car bomb … BAGHDAD – Iraq wants to remove any possibility that U.S. troops could remain after 2011 from a proposed security agreement now under negotiation, a Shiite lawmaker close to Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki said Thursday.

 

The current draft would have U.S. soldiers leave Iraq by Dec. 31, 2011, unless the government asks them to stay to help with training or other missions. But Ali al-Adeeb, a member of the prime minister's inner circle, said the government wants that possibility removed

 

So hey, if Iraq tells us to get out, and we comply....I guess we can sort of, in some way claim "victory" ?

[At Home 0]

Peace without victory, baby.

[SuperJerk 0]

The Iraqi people want to cut and run.

[SuperJerk 0]

The United States military since 2004 has used broad, secret authority to carry out nearly a dozen previously undisclosed attacks against Al Qaeda and other militants in Syria, Pakistan and elsewhere, according to senior American officials.

 

These military raids, typically carried out by Special Operations forces, were authorized by a classified order that Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld signed in the spring of 2004 with the approval of President Bush, the officials said. The secret order gave the military new authority to attack the Qaeda terrorist network anywhere in the world, and a more sweeping mandate to conduct operations in countries not at war with the United States.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/10/washington/10military.html

 

Frankly, I'm a little shocked that the Bush Administration would do something as obvious as use covert ops to fight terrorists. Usually their standard operating procedures has been to (a) announce we're going months ahead of time, and (b) mount a massive, easily trackable, D-Day style invasion force against organizations that thrive on being sneaky and blending in.

[SuperJerk 0]

Iraqi parliament OKs US troops for 3 more years

 

BAGHDAD – The long, costly story of American military involvement in Iraq moved closer to an end Thursday when Iraq's parliament approved a pact that requires all troops to be out in three years, marking the first clear timetable for a U.S. exit since the 2003 invasion that ousted Saddam Hussein.

 

The vote for the security deal followed months of tough talks between U.S. and Iraqi negotiators that at times seemed on the point of collapse, and then days of hardscrabble dealmaking between ethnic and sectarian groups whose centuries-old rifts had hardened during the first four years of the war.

 

The war has claimed more than 4,200 American lives and killed a far greater, untold number of Iraqis, consumed huge reserves of money and resources and eroded the global stature of the United States, even among its closest allies.

 

Now an end is in sight, and American troops could leave sooner if President-elect Barack Obama makes good on a plan to pull out combat troops within 16 months of moving into the White House in January.

 

Some troops are likely to redeploy to face an insurgency that has expanded in Afghanistan even as attacks have diminished in Iraq, where the U.S. believes Iraqi forces are better able to fend for themselves. The terms of the security pact reflect that confidence: U.S. forces will withdraw from Iraqi towns and cities by June 30 and the entire country by Jan. 1, 2012.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081128/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_iraq

 

 

[Jaxxson Mayhem 0]

The United States military since 2004 has used broad, secret authority to carry out nearly a dozen previously undisclosed attacks against Al Qaeda and other militants in Syria, Pakistan and elsewhere, according to senior American officials.

 

These military raids, typically carried out by Special Operations forces, were authorized by a classified order that Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld signed in the spring of 2004 with the approval of President Bush, the officials said. The secret order gave the military new authority to attack the Qaeda terrorist network anywhere in the world, and a more sweeping mandate to conduct operations in countries not at war with the United States.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/10/washington/10military.html

 

Frankly, I'm a little shocked that the Bush Administration would do something as obvious as use covert ops to fight terrorists. Usually their standard operating procedures has been to (a) announce we're going months ahead of time, and (b) mount a massive, easily trackable, D-Day style invasion force against organizations that thrive on being sneaky and blending in.

 

 

I like it. It's a real life The Unit..... minus Dennis Haysbert trying to sell me car insurance.