NFL Discussion Forumtable

[snuffbox 0]

0 votes for Aaron Kampman.

[Guest]

From Deadspin:

 

Not that there's anything funny about a guy losing his job, but what amused us about the sacking of Art Shell on Thursday was that Al Davis is going to make him stick around and do office work during the final year of his contract next season, when Shell is due to earn $2 million.

[hyperchord24 0]

Here's a good article on Saban leaving for Alabama which even included the "Larry Brown of football" reference we used here.

 

"I'm not going to be the Alabama coach", said the new Alabama coach last week.

 

LAST WEEK. C'mon. When you're talking about being entrusted with millions of dollars and the future of a professional franchise here, and your very livelihood and reputation here, you should have more respect for the people who would give you that opportunity and honor your word.

 

Noone besides yourself gives a shit if you like chocolate ice cream or not. There's no money or professional and personal futures riding on that.

Get over yourself. You know damn well if you hated your current job and had a chance to do something you loved for roughly the same amount of money, you'd jump on it. We all would. No matter how many millions are riding on it.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

From Deadspin:

 

Not that there's anything funny about a guy losing his job, but what amused us about the sacking of Art Shell on Thursday was that Al Davis is going to make him stick around and do office work during the final year of his contract next season, when Shell is due to earn $2 million.

 

Well wasn't he an office guy to begin with before they dusted him off and put him on the field? I remember he was like the director of something in a department for the Raiders.

[snuffbox 0]

Saban's a bit different with the whole breaking multiple signed contracts thing. Integrity, whats that?

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

So if an organization is unhappy with a coach's performance after a couple of years (Shell, Mora), they have every right to throw them out on their ass, but when a coach is unhappy and would like to move into a different position he's a backstabbing traitor? Isn't their some hypocrisy in the way we view these events?

[Guest bigsheep305]

It's not the fact that Saban moved out of THIS job, it's the fact that he has a fairly established pattern of moving out of almost EVERY coaching job. I like the guy as a coach, but if he was coaching a team I was a big supporter of, I wouldn't get too excited, because you KNOW there's a better than average chance he won't be sticking around very long.

[snuffbox 0]

Correspondence from the real world...if you suck at your job you risk being fired. If your backbone is made of jelly you will likely quit repeatedly under pressure. Saban wont finish this contract out either. It is just too much to ask of a guy like that.

[snuffbox 0]

The Cold Pizza dinks just picked Colts to beat the Chiefs so I'm feeling even better about KC's chances on Sat. Go Larry go.

[UseTheSledgehammerUh 0]

Not gonna be a good week for the brothers Manning, if history has shown anything:

 

A) COLTS CAN'T STOP RUN

 

B) PEYTON IS PLAYOFF DOG

 

C) ELI IS BIGGER PLAYOFF DOG

 

D) EAGLES ARE 5-0 IN OPENING ROUND PLAYOFF GAMES UNDER ANDY REID (2001-2005)

[naiwf 0]

Correspondence from the real world...if you suck at your job you risk being fired. If your backbone is made of jelly you will likely quit repeatedly under pressure. Saban wont finish this contract out either. It is just too much to ask of a guy like that.

 

Exactly. Defending Saban, and his basketball counterpart Larry Brown, is just retarded because they fall in and out of love with jobs on a yearly basis. If you love coaching that much, but hate the problems that come with high profile jobs, and money doesn't matter as they always say then go coach HS or Juco. I wish both guys would just go away already.

 

In reference to something else posted, Saban might be getting less per year, but he's adding $17 million in guaranteed money by breaking yet another contract and his "genius" would have gotten him fired if Miami went 6-10 next year. This way he gets to look like he's doing it for his family or whatever, but 3 years from now when he gets bored at 'Bama and chases money elsewhere I want to see what changed for him, just like Mike Hampton had to leave NY for "the Colorado school system" but quickly backtracked a few years later as he got the fuck out of dodge and headed to Atlanata.

[CanadianChris 0]

The Colts will win this weekend.

[Hogan Made Wrestling 0]

Jason Taylor named defensive player of the year.

 

I suspect we will be hearing about the lack of votes for Ray Lewis and Trevor Pryce very soon.

[MarvinisaLunatic 0]

Jason Taylor named defensive player of the year.

 

I suspect we will be hearing about the lack of votes for Ray Lewis and Trevor Pryce very soon.

 

Problem is with the Ravens that you cant just pick one player on the defense, but Im surpised Pryce got a vote. Lewis didnt do anything and he didnt even play for almost a whole month, his vote was name value purely. Chris McCallister had 7 ints and 2 TDs. Not quite Taylors 13.5 sacks, 10 forced fumbles, 2 fumbles recovered and 2 ints for TDs but whatever.

[The Man in Blak 0]

Wouldn't a more accurate barometer be to compare their their first full seasons (esp. since Vick is in his 6th season)?

The comparisons are to the current Vick. And he's certainly declined since that 2002 season. Which brings up the "Vick really is awful vs. the same will happen with Young when defenses "figure him out"" stuff.

 

Even though Young is in his first year in the league, he's already a better passer by these statistics. Not only that, Vick is actually below replacement for the position, from a passing standpoint.

How are those stats determined?

 

I don't understand how a QB who throws for 8 less TD, a lower completion %, and a lower average yards per catch can be significantly BETTER than the other QB...

 

The explanations for DPAR (and the base stat, PAR) can be found on the FootballOutsiders website.

 

Glancing at the table that I pulled those stats from, it appears that Michael Vick compiled those stats against much more inferior defenses than Young faced and, thus, received a much more harsh defense adjustment to his original PAR score (Vick had a 3.7 PAR, while Young had a 3.3 PAR score). I'll grant that Vick's advantage on touchdowns is marginalized somewhat in the calculus - as I explained in the HoF discussions for Tiki Barber, I feel that FootballOutsiders undervalues the TD in their calculations - but the difference in DPAR between the two is significant enough that I'm not sure a "TD boost" to Vick's score would make a difference.

[Black Lushus 0]

Jason Taylor named defensive player of the year.

 

I suspect we will be hearing about the lack of votes for Ray Lewis and Trevor Pryce very soon.

 

Problem is with the Ravens that you cant just pick one player on the defense, but Im surpised Pryce got a vote. Lewis didnt do anything and he didnt even play for almost a whole month, his vote was name value purely. Chris McCallister had 7 ints and 2 TDs. Not quite Taylors 13.5 sacks, 10 forced fumbles, 2 fumbles recovered and 2 ints for TDs but whatever.

THEY SHOULD HAVE GAVE THE ENTIRE RAVENS D THE AWARD!

 

right, Marv?

[2GOLD 0]

The Colts will win if the Chiefs do something stupid. Like not blitz Peyton every chance they get and mix up their defensive schemes with lots of shifts to confuse him. Or if they decide to let Trent Green try to win and get into a passing shootout with them.

 

If either of those happen, the Colts will win by a touchdown or more.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

Jason Taylor named defensive player of the year.

 

I suspect we will be hearing about the lack of votes for Ray Lewis and Trevor Pryce very soon.

 

Champ Bailey is the one who got screwed.

[Guest Vitamin X]

So if an organization is unhappy with a coach's performance after a couple of years (Shell, Mora), they have every right to throw them out on their ass, but when a coach is unhappy and would like to move into a different position he's a backstabbing traitor? Isn't their some hypocrisy in the way we view these events?

 

No, not when you actively and vehemently deny any rumors of you going anywhere but your current spot. Art Shell did a terrible job and Mora was given numerous chances plus lost control over his team when Vick started bitching about his role. I don't know if anyone might've done better with the terrible squad the Raiders fielded this year, but they were an 0-16 candidate earlier this year, and it didn't look like he'd be doing any better than that sometime soon. What did Saban have to be unhappy about? All he did was bolt for Bama when they sweetened the money offered to him, it doesn't have to do about "loving" the college game or being unhappy with his current job, it's the money, which brings me to...

 

You know damn well if you hated your current job and had a chance to do something you loved for roughly the same amount of money, you'd jump on it. We all would. No matter how many millions are riding on it.

 

Again, what indication is there that he had a problem with the Dolphins organization? He had control over personnel, a great owner to work for, and everything a coach, especially coming from college, could ask for. And we're not talking about what we might or might not do, because we're not NFL head coaches and most of our jobs are not similar to his in any respect. But when you work on a contractual basis, the given understanding is that you don't break it and you honor that to the best of your ability. You don't quit when you're trying to rebuild a franchise you vowed to, or when you have everything you could ask for but someone offers you a better deal and you take off. That's quitting on the team, and that's not an honorable thing to do, no matter how you may try to slice it.

[hyperchord24 0]

So if an organization is unhappy with a coach's performance after a couple of years (Shell, Mora), they have every right to throw them out on their ass, but when a coach is unhappy and would like to move into a different position he's a backstabbing traitor? Isn't their some hypocrisy in the way we view these events?

 

No, not when you actively and vehemently deny any rumors of you going anywhere but your current spot. Art Shell did a terrible job and Mora was given numerous chances plus lost control over his team when Vick started bitching about his role. I don't know if anyone might've done better with the terrible squad the Raiders fielded this year, but they were an 0-16 candidate earlier this year, and it didn't look like he'd be doing any better than that sometime soon. What did Saban have to be unhappy about? All he did was bolt for Bama when they sweetened the money offered to him, it doesn't have to do about "loving" the college game or being unhappy with his current job, it's the money, which brings me to...

 

You know damn well if you hated your current job and had a chance to do something you loved for roughly the same amount of money, you'd jump on it. We all would. No matter how many millions are riding on it.

Again, what indication is there that he had a problem with the Dolphins organization? He had control over personnel, a great owner to work for, and everything a coach, especially coming from college, could ask for. And we're not talking about what we might or might not do, because we're not NFL head coaches and most of our jobs are not similar to his in any respect. But when you work on a contractual basis, the given understanding is that you don't break it and you honor that to the best of your ability. You don't quit when you're trying to rebuild a franchise you vowed to, or when you have everything you could ask for but someone offers you a better deal and you take off. That's quitting on the team, and that's not an honorable thing to do, no matter how you may try to slice it.

If you think Saban left for the money, you're sadly mistaken. He liked coaching college kids. That's why he left. Did not having immediate success contribute? Sure. Was is dishonorable? Sure. I'm not arguing that. What I AM arguing is that he owes nothing to anybody but himslef and his family. Remember that quote from Rudy? I think we all do. Oh, and as far as analogizing his job with that of anyone elses, I think it is fair because we all deal with the sort of thing coaches deal with (pressure, deadlines, struggling to succeed, etc. -- those of us with real jobs understand), the only difference is that he has 12 trillion people watching, listening and critiquing every move he makes. That's why I say when you or I quits on his job under the same circumstances, it is analogous in every respect except nobody is watching you or me.

 

Look, all I was saying was people were taking this Saban thing way too far. That's it.

[Slayer 0]

If this was the only time Saban had done this, I think people would give him a pass, but he dicked MSU to go to LSU, then dicked LSU to go to the Dolphins, and now, third verse same as first

[KingPK 0]

If you think Saban left for the money, you're sadly mistaken. He liked coaching college kids. That's why he left.

 

Why did he go to the NFL in the first place then?

[Guest Vitamin X]

So if an organization is unhappy with a coach's performance after a couple of years (Shell, Mora), they have every right to throw them out on their ass, but when a coach is unhappy and would like to move into a different position he's a backstabbing traitor? Isn't their some hypocrisy in the way we view these events?

 

No, not when you actively and vehemently deny any rumors of you going anywhere but your current spot. Art Shell did a terrible job and Mora was given numerous chances plus lost control over his team when Vick started bitching about his role. I don't know if anyone might've done better with the terrible squad the Raiders fielded this year, but they were an 0-16 candidate earlier this year, and it didn't look like he'd be doing any better than that sometime soon. What did Saban have to be unhappy about? All he did was bolt for Bama when they sweetened the money offered to him, it doesn't have to do about "loving" the college game or being unhappy with his current job, it's the money, which brings me to...

 

You know damn well if you hated your current job and had a chance to do something you loved for roughly the same amount of money, you'd jump on it. We all would. No matter how many millions are riding on it.

Again, what indication is there that he had a problem with the Dolphins organization? He had control over personnel, a great owner to work for, and everything a coach, especially coming from college, could ask for. And we're not talking about what we might or might not do, because we're not NFL head coaches and most of our jobs are not similar to his in any respect. But when you work on a contractual basis, the given understanding is that you don't break it and you honor that to the best of your ability. You don't quit when you're trying to rebuild a franchise you vowed to, or when you have everything you could ask for but someone offers you a better deal and you take off. That's quitting on the team, and that's not an honorable thing to do, no matter how you may try to slice it.

If you think Saban left for the money, you're sadly mistaken. He liked coaching college kids. That's why he left. Did not having immediate success contribute? Sure. Was is dishonorable? Sure. I'm not arguing that. What I AM arguing is that he owes nothing to anybody but himslef and his family. Remember that quote from Rudy? I think we all do. Oh, and as far as analogizing his job with that of anyone elses, I think it is fair because we all deal with the sort of thing coaches deal with (pressure, deadlines, struggling to succeed, etc. -- those of us with real jobs understand), the only difference is that he has 12 trillion people watching, listening and critiquing every move he makes. That's why I say when you or I quits on his job under the same circumstances, it is analogous in every respect except nobody is watching you or me.

 

Look, all I was saying was people were taking this Saban thing way too far. That's it.

 

Mistaken? As KingPK pointed out, then why did he leave for the NFL in the first place? And don't you find it the least bit suspicious that only when Alabama threw that 40 million dollar deal on the table, that Saban took the position not more than 48 hours later?

 

It's not analogous to what jobs people in the "real world" have, because most people work on a salary basis and those who do work on a contractual basis are obliged to hold to their contracts, unlike what it seems NFL players and coaches have to do because of the way the unions as well as the contracts themselves are structured. It is a tremendous difference because he is paid arguably a hell of a lot more than you, me, and probably anyone else on this forum or that we even know on a personal basis. And he was paid that amount to help rebuild a franchise that he abandoned. You even just stated yourself that you aren't arguing that, but then how could you argue that, if you also agree that it was a dishonorable thing to do, that he owes nothing to anyone?

 

He owes it to the fans, the men who paid him millions of dollars and have given him the opportunity to be a head coach, which many potentially great candidates dream of getting a chance to do, and himself, as he apparently doesn't give a shit about loyalty or reputation. Maybe he sensed the pressure and that he could be fired if he had another average/mediocre season in the pros. But if that's the way he feels about it, then he doesn't give a shit about the Dolphin, LSU, or MSU fans who wanted to see their teams succeed and of course the franchises themselves that had to start over from scratch in his wake. And that would still make him a coward for leaving a bigger mess than he walked into by his sudden departure(s).

 

But hey, let's watch the fireworks when he decides to leave `Bama, for, I dunno, the Raiders? That'll be fun.

[Guest Princess Leena]

All that is true.

 

But, pro & college football are businesses. And Saban can get away with doing that because he's had 2 great years out of 10, and is in demand.

[Guest "Go, Mordecai!"]

From Deadspin:

 

Not that there's anything funny about a guy losing his job, but what amused us about the sacking of Art Shell on Thursday was that Al Davis is going to make him stick around and do office work during the final year of his contract next season, when Shell is due to earn $2 million.

Al Davis is awesome. Most owners fire coaches. Only Al demotes them to filing TPS reports.

 

As for their coaching vacancy, I recommend that the Raiders go on and Shoop it up. Mwahahah.

[hyperchord24 0]

But hey, let's watch the fireworks when he decides to leave `Bama, for, I dunno, the Raiders? That'll be fun.

I think you meant that as a joke, but seeing how everyone's going to brand him a failure in the NFL, I could see him getting the itch in two years.

 

Oh, and I had no idea he had a pattern of dicking over contracts with the other teams he's coached.

[naiwf 0]

Payton crushed the field to win Coach of the Year.

 

"Payton received 44 votes in a season when there were a half-dozen outstanding coaching performances. Eric Mangini of the New York Jets, another first-year head coach, got three votes, while San Diego's Marty Schottenheimer, the 2004 winner, received two. Jeff Fisher of Tennessee got one."

 

I thought Man-genius would make a run at him, but this was an LT level beatdown.

[Slayer 0]

From Deadspin:

 

Not that there's anything funny about a guy losing his job, but what amused us about the sacking of Art Shell on Thursday was that Al Davis is going to make him stick around and do office work during the final year of his contract next season, when Shell is due to earn $2 million.

Al Davis is awesome. Most owners fire coaches. Only Al demotes them to filing TPS reports.

Just file, baby

[Guest Legalise Drugs and Murder]

I can understand it, but Mangini's working with less, if you ask me.

[Guest Vitamin X]

Not that I'm unhappy with Mike McCarthy, but I was really hoping that Green Bay was going to pick up Sean Payton this past offseason, and he even interviewed with Green Bay before taking the Saints job. I think the two sides were apart in money, but now it leaves me wondering. Payton's a great coach, congrats to him.