NFL Discussion Forumtable

[Ripper 0]

Agreed. If for nothing else, knowing you are the most overly scrutinized guy in the NFL and say "Maybe I should do some illegal shit."

 

I will wait until everything comes out to make sure, because I tend to care about what the law says instead of some lady that in investigating for animal control.

[Guest Smues]

Witnesses can place Vick at dog fights

 

If true, he should be arrested.

[Ripper 0]

Witnesses can place Vick at dog fights

 

If true, he should be arrested.

 

 

Thats usually what happens when you are found to be guilty of a felony...yeah.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

Bet Schaub is looking good just about now...

[Ripper 0]

Bet Schaub is looking good just about now...

 

Because his assault case is an upgrade?

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

What assault case? In any event, Vick has been shitting the bed for years now. It was time to cut loose on him, but they kept him too long, and now they're seeing the consequences for it.

 

(And so Ripper doesn't try to make a case for Vick's on-field achievements, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about him as the face of the franchise.)

[The Man in Blak 0]

Bet Schaub is looking good just about now...

 

Because his assault case is an upgrade?

 

Uh, if you're talking about this, I think the charges were dropped a long time ago.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

And even if he had an assault case, it pales in comparison to the following:

 

alleged participation in dog fighting

alleged drug use as evidenced by a bust in Miami with his bottle at an airport

alleged STD-related case

flipping off the fans

 

all this while he's the supposed "face" of the Atlanta Falcons.

[Ripper 0]

What assault case? In any event, Vick has been shitting the bed for years now. It was time to cut loose on him, but they kept him too long, and now they're seeing the consequences for it.

 

(And so Ripper doesn't try to make a case for Vick's on-field achievements, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about him as the face of the franchise.)

 

 

How has vick been "shitting the bed"?

 

Vick has never been arrested and his bad press has been laughable up until now. His friend took a watch....OMG HE IS SUCH A BAD ROLE MODEL FOR everyone trade him. He flipped off some people. So the fuck what? I have a feeling that if Brady or Farve flipped off someone no one would be saying they should be cut loose and aren't the face of the franchise. What else? Waterbottle? The same one they tested the contents and it was a illegal substance?

 

Bottomline, he has never been arrested or charged with anything because he hasn't done anything. If he did have something to do with the dog fighting, that will be the first, and he should be suspended at least 5-6 games in my eyes.

 

The guy just gets overscrutinized to the point its ridiculous. When rape, gun charges and assault and other things get less news time than "Vick misses flight" then it is just ridiculous.

 

And in the Shaub case, it was going to trial and the guy that was claiming the assualt no longer cooperated with the trial about a month before. Bet that had nothing to do with a settlement between the two.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

And even if he had an assault case, it pales in comparison to the following:

 

alleged participation in dog fighting

alleged drug use as evidenced by a bust in Miami with his bottle at an airport

alleged STD-related case

flipping off the fans

 

all this while he's the supposed "face" of the Atlanta Falcons.

Weren't there also pictures of him smoking weed on someone's Myspace account?

 

I'll give him a pass on the STD case just for the lifetime of Ron Mexico jokes that resulted from it.

[Ripper 0]

And even if he had an assault case, it pales in comparison to the following:

 

alleged participation in dog fighting

alleged drug use as evidenced by a bust in Miami with his bottle at an airport

alleged STD-related case

flipping off the fans

 

all this while he's the supposed "face" of the Atlanta Falcons.

Weren't there also pictures of him smoking weed on someone's Myspace account?

 

I'll give him a pass on the STD case just for the lifetime of Ron Mexico jokes that resulted from it.

 

 

You mean that picture of him with a Black and Mild?

 

After the waterbottle incident he was tested by the NFL and was clean, and the contents of the water bottle were not illegal. What else do you want?

 

The STD case was just "I want money so lets get bad press on him". I don't see how this should be any worse press than being addicted to pain killers and going to rehad or going all Shawn Kemp on mufuckas

 

And fuck those fans.

[The Man in Blak 0]

What assault case? In any event, Vick has been shitting the bed for years now. It was time to cut loose on him, but they kept him too long, and now they're seeing the consequences for it.

 

(And so Ripper doesn't try to make a case for Vick's on-field achievements, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about him as the face of the franchise.)

 

The guy just gets overscrutinized to the point its ridiculous. When rape, gun charges and assault and other things get less news time than "Vick misses flight" then it is just ridiculous.

 

I don't disagree that athletes, by and large, have too much scrutiny upon their various indiscretions, but the situation that surrounds Vick seems to indicate a possibility that there's a real fire beyond all of this "smoke" (i.e. the multiple incidents that Porter mentioned earlier).

 

And when you isolate the most harmless of his offenses (flipping the fans off) and directly compare that to potential responses from fans for two white quarterbacks that have Super Bowl rings and no history of potential involvement in illegal activities, your argument for Vick comes off as being somewhat dishonest, in my opinion.

 

Do you really think Vick's on-the-field performance has warranted any kind of leeway from fans for the multiple off-the-field incidents that have came up over his career?

 

And in the Shaub case, it was going to trial and the guy that was claiming the assualt no longer cooperated with the trial about a month before. Bet that had nothing to do with a settlement between the two.

 

Then why bring it up?

[LaParkaMarka 0]

Do you really think Vick's on-the-field performance has warranted any kind of leeway from fans for the multiple off-the-field incidents that have came up over his career?

 

The old Ray Lewis argument. He was great on the field, so let's ignore his off-field stuff. Good times.

 

Anyways, if you don't want to compare Vick to Brady and Favre, how about comparing him to Leonard Little. Little actually killed a woman while drunk driving, and the guy is still happily in the league. I'm not saying Little should be suspended for something that happened a few years ago, but it just shows that there seems to be a way higher standard for how Vick acts vs how some defensive end acts.

[tominator89 0]

And even if he had an assault case, it pales in comparison to the following:

 

alleged participation in dog fighting

alleged drug use as evidenced by a bust in Miami with his bottle at an airport

alleged STD-related case

flipping off the fans

 

all this while he's the supposed "face" of the Atlanta Falcons.

Weren't there also pictures of him smoking weed on someone's Myspace account?

 

I'll give him a pass on the STD case just for the lifetime of Ron Mexico jokes that resulted from it.

 

 

You mean that picture of him with a Black and Mild?

 

After the waterbottle incident he was tested by the NFL and was clean, and the contents of the water bottle were not illegal. What else do you want?

 

The STD case was just "I want money so lets get bad press on him". I don't see how this should be any worse press than being addicted to pain killers and going to rehad or going all Shawn Kemp on mufuckas

 

And fuck those fans.

 

Maybe he should get his name in the paper for winning championships and not alleged incidents.

 

Sorry, but I've grown quite tired of the Mike Vick saga.

[Ripper 0]

What assault case? In any event, Vick has been shitting the bed for years now. It was time to cut loose on him, but they kept him too long, and now they're seeing the consequences for it.

 

(And so Ripper doesn't try to make a case for Vick's on-field achievements, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about him as the face of the franchise.)

 

The guy just gets overscrutinized to the point its ridiculous. When rape, gun charges and assault and other things get less news time than "Vick misses flight" then it is just ridiculous.

 

I don't disagree that athletes, by and large, have too much scrutiny upon their various indiscretions, but the situation that surrounds Vick seems to indicate a possibility that there's a real fire beyond all of this "smoke" (i.e. the multiple incidents that Porter mentioned earlier).

 

And when you isolate the most harmless of his offenses (flipping the fans off) and directly compare that to potential responses from fans for two white quarterbacks that have Super Bowl rings and no history of potential involvement in illegal activities, your argument for Vick comes off as being somewhat dishonest, in my opinion.

 

Do you really think Vick's on-the-field performance has warranted any kind of leeway from fans for the multiple off-the-field incidents that have came up over his career?

 

And in the Shaub case, it was going to trial and the guy that was claiming the assualt no longer cooperated with the trial about a month before. Bet that had nothing to do with a settlement between the two.

 

Then why bring it up?

 

First, I didn't isolate the flipping off fans. I isolated the STD case(which is pretty close to the Kemping that a certain New England QB has been doing...not controling your dick). And if you want to have a problem with me using two superbowl winning QBs then how about Jake Plummer. Jake was flipping off fans, running his car in to other peoples cars because of road rage and was getting a pretty much free pass. Hell, Joey Porter gets alot less flack than Vick. And last time I checked Farve was using those pain killers in quite a illegal manner and admitted it. Once the reponse to that was "Oh well...it IS Brett Farve" Vick got exonorated in every possible way with the water bottle thing but people are still using that against him.

 

Do I think his on field performance has warrented leeway? On incidents that either have beein obsensely minor yet overblown or completely proven false. Yeah. But if he is guilty of the dog fighting, fuck him, he deserves what he gets. That simple.

 

I am saying that if you scruitinized any player to the degree that Vick has been over the last few years (after Espn fell out of love with him and stopped the constant cock sucking) I think you would find a hell of a lot more than a waterbottle and a civil suit. Yet Vick needs to be moved?

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

The truth is he would get more of a pass if Atlanta wasn't finishing the seasons 8-8 and missing the playoffs. Favre fessed up to his addiction to Vicodin like a few months after winning MVP awards and being one of the winningest quarterbacks of the decade. There's going to be a different standard, which I don't deny. With Vick, the on-field achievements don't justify the off field issues.

[Ripper 0]

The truth is he would get more of a pass if Atlanta wasn't finishing the seasons 8-8 and missing the playoffs. Favre fessed up to his addiction to Vicodin like a few months after winning MVP awards and being one of the winningest quarterbacks of the decade. There's going to be a different standard, which I don't deny. With Vick, the on-field achievements don't justify the off field issues.

 

 

Vick has started 4 years, and led them to the playoffs for two of them with winning records, once to the NFC championship game and once to the second round. The problem is that Atlanta is full of bandwagoners who have no idea that this team has absolutely sucked save one year in 98 for their entire existance. The guy literally carried the offense the last three years, because Greg Knapp...in a word...sucked. They were great for one year under Mora and like every team that is great one year, you have to make adjustments the next year because the rest of the league is going to. Knapp said "Fuck that, it worked last year. No reason it shouldn't work now"....for two years.

 

With vick, this is a major issue. But removing this, his off field issues is like saying they should trade a guy because he did a rolling stop and was caught doing 15 over the speed limit in the last couple of years. Minor stuff that he was even exonorated of.

 

But once again, if he was behind dog fighting, they should drop the fucking bomb on him.

[Guest George's Box]

Brett Favre says he's mad at the Packers' front office for not committing to a run for the championship, neglecting to get Randy Moss. But this is coming from the guy who's skipping a mini-camp to go to graduation parties with his daughter. If all you want is to win, then you, as the best player on the Green Bay Packers, need to be there. So which is it? Are you committed to a run for the championship, or are you satisfied with being Football Clemens? Brett Favre, who you crappin'?

[snuffbox 0]

Aside from his daughter's graduation, he kinda can't practice anyway with the ankle surgery rehab and all.

 

He has signed with a bunch of teams halfway through the season, though.

[Guest George's Box]

It doesn't matter. Even if he can't practice at 100%, he should be there to work with Rodgers, especially since Favre is surely more susceptible to an ankle injury now. If the organization wants him there to contribute in some form, which they obviously do, as this is a mandatory mini-camp from which Favre has not been excused, then he should be there. Favre is forfeiting some sympathy by blowing off training camp. It's harder to buy "I want a championship in 2007" when he's only showing up when he wants to.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

He already showed he doesn't want to do jack shit with Rodgers or anyone else they bring in to replace him.

[Guest Tzar Lysergic]

Y'know, when Favre does leave, What does that team really have going for it? I could see them finishing last in the division in a few seasons.

[snuffbox 0]

Brett Fawvruh is in Rawbuht Kraft's Bawx!

[The Man in Blak 0]

Do you really think Vick's on-the-field performance has warranted any kind of leeway from fans for the multiple off-the-field incidents that have came up over his career?

 

The old Ray Lewis argument. He was great on the field, so let's ignore his off-field stuff. Good times.

 

Anyways, if you don't want to compare Vick to Brady and Favre, how about comparing him to Leonard Little. Little actually killed a woman while drunk driving, and the guy is still happily in the league. I'm not saying Little should be suspended for something that happened a few years ago, but it just shows that there seems to be a way higher standard for how Vick acts vs how some defensive end acts.

 

For starters, Ray Lewis took a very substantial hit to his reputation for the murder charges that came up a few years ago, and there are more than enough people that still despise him today, despite the fact that he was not convicted of the charges.

 

Secondly, Leonard Little would almost certainly be suspended for a very long time if his incident had occurred under Goodell's watch and I wouldn't say that it's been swept under the rug either - both the Tony LaRussa DUI and the Josh Hancock death were both subtexted with the point that "at least they weren't a Leonard Little incident".

 

Most importantly, I'm not trying to excuse the behavior of these athletes but, rather, address the discussion that some fans feel like Michael Vick should be dealt away from the franchise, as a result of the constant off-the-field issues that have been alleged and reported. There were many lofty (and perhaps undeserved) expectations from fans and analysts alike for Michael Vick when he entered into the NFL. Ultimately, he has failed to meet these expectations and people are searching for an answer and, in their search, they're finding all of the various off-the-field incidents, in addition to other less admirable traits as well (allegations that he milked his injury in 2003, observations that he refused to study game film).

 

This is not a "rolling stop" and to rationalize it as such is lunacy. This is a string of incidents, one after another after another over the last four years, all coming from a guy that's supposed to be one of the premier players in the league, a guy that has not only failed to reach his expectations, but has demonstrated - through his actions - a real lack of interest in trying to improve his game. I think Atlanta fans, bandwagoners or not, have a legitimate right to be pissed off.

 

First, I didn't isolate the flipping off fans.

 

He flipped off some people. So the fuck what? I have a feeling that if Brady or Farve flipped off someone no one would be saying they should be cut loose and aren't the face of the franchise.

[Ripper 0]

Do you really think Vick's on-the-field performance has warranted any kind of leeway from fans for the multiple off-the-field incidents that have came up over his career?

 

The old Ray Lewis argument. He was great on the field, so let's ignore his off-field stuff. Good times.

 

Anyways, if you don't want to compare Vick to Brady and Favre, how about comparing him to Leonard Little. Little actually killed a woman while drunk driving, and the guy is still happily in the league. I'm not saying Little should be suspended for something that happened a few years ago, but it just shows that there seems to be a way higher standard for how Vick acts vs how some defensive end acts.

 

For starters, Ray Lewis took a very substantial hit to his reputation for the murder charges that came up a few years ago, and there are more than enough people that still despise him today, despite the fact that he was not convicted of the charges.

 

Secondly, Leonard Little would almost certainly be suspended for a very long time if his incident had occurred under Goodell's watch and I wouldn't say that it's been swept under the rug either - both the Tony LaRussa DUI and the Josh Hancock death were both subtexted with the point that "at least they weren't a Leonard Little incident".

 

Most importantly, I'm not trying to excuse the behavior of these athletes but, rather, address the discussion that some fans feel like Michael Vick should be dealt away from the franchise, as a result of the constant off-the-field issues that have been alleged and reported. There were many lofty (and perhaps undeserved) expectations from fans and analysts alike for Michael Vick when he entered into the NFL. Ultimately, he has failed to meet these expectations and people are searching for an answer and, in their search, they're finding all of the various off-the-field incidents, in addition to other less admirable traits as well (allegations that he milked his injury in 2003, observations that he refused to study game film).

 

This is not a "rolling stop" and to rationalize it as such is lunacy. This is a string of incidents, one after another after another over the last four years, all coming from a guy that's supposed to be one of the premier players in the league, a guy that has not only failed to reach his expectations, but has demonstrated - through his actions - a real lack of interest in trying to improve his game. I think Atlanta fans, bandwagoners or not, have a legitimate right to be pissed off.

 

First, I didn't isolate the flipping off fans.

 

He flipped off some people. So the fuck what? I have a feeling that if Brady or Farve flipped off someone no one would be saying they should be cut loose and aren't the face of the franchise.

 

 

I thought you were refering to this:

 

the STD case was just "I want money so lets get bad press on him". I don't see how this should be any worse press than being addicted to pain killers and going to rehad or going all Shawn Kemp on mufuckas

 

My fault.

 

It isn't lunacy. Before dog fighting, his off filed incidents were minor at best. Flip off some loud obnoxious fans. Not a big deal. Was subject of a publicity seeking Civil Suit. Was accused of something with the water bottle that was proven to be false in every possible way. None of that is "drop him from the franchise" worthy, and you know it. If it was ANY other player you know you wouldn't say "yeah, time to cut losses. He got accused of something not true.."

 

And anyone expecting anything else out of Vick is, well...stupid. 2 playoff appearances with wins in 4 years as a starter. Not exactly the makings of a bust.

[The Man in Blak 0]

And anyone expecting anything else out of Vick is, well...stupid. 2 playoff appearances with wins in 4 years as a starter. Not exactly the makings of a bust.

 

Technically, he's started for five years - he missed a good chunk of the 2003 season due to a pre-season injury.

 

But, while we're looking at selective endpoints, how about this: the Atlanta Falcons have only made the playoffs once in the last four years and have completely missed the postseason over the last two years, when the NFC has been absolutely dreadful.

 

In 2002, Vick was one of the most valuable players in the league, but he has taken a firm step down from that, especially as a passer. Football Outsiders has a stat called Defensive Points Above Replacement (DPAR) that is used to measure the effectiveness of a player, compared to other players at his position and adjusted for multiple factors, including the strength of defenses on the schedule. DPAR shows that, after putting up an great campaign in 2002, Vick has undergone a major regression as a passer:

 

Vick's Passing DPAR

2002: 59.6 (10th in the NFL)

2003: -2.9 (33rd in the NFL - injury shortened season)

2004: -18.5 (37th in the NFL)

2005: 12.9 (26th in the NFL)

2006: -6.3 (37th in the NFL)

 

His abilities as a rusher (which add about ~20-30 DPAR each year) have salvaged much of the value that he has lost as a passer, but the stats show that his performance is far away from his reputation. Vick really hasn't been a premier quarterback in the league for the last four years, which is a period of time where many fans have expected Vick to develop and improve as a player.

 

Furthermore, Vick has had very little impact on the success that the Falcons have had in the playoffs - the two postseason wins that they've had under his tenure involved one of the worst playoff teams in recent memory (the 2004 St. Louis Rams) and a "career-defining win" over the Packers in Lambeau, where Vick had 181 total yards from scrimmage and Brett Favre failed to complete half of his attempts (20/42, 247 yards, 2 INTs). His last playoff game was a 27-10 squash from the Eagles, where he had 26 yards rushing and went 11/24 in pass attempts (1 INT).

 

If you're willing to look beyond over half a dozen different off-the-field incidents, for whatever reason, that's fine, but I would at least consider the actual results of Vick's performance before saying that he's carried the Falcons to anything.

[KingPK 0]

And anyone expecting anything else out of Vick is, well...stupid. 2 playoff appearances with wins in 4 years as a starter. Not exactly the makings of a bust.

 

Technically, he's started for five years - he missed a good chunk of the 2003 season due to a pre-season injury.

 

But, while we're looking at selective endpoints, how about this: the Atlanta Falcons have only made the playoffs once in the last four years and have completely missed the postseason over the last two years, when the NFC has been absolutely dreadful.

 

And that's because they can't pass the ball to save their lives or stop the pass. How can a team be #1 in rushing and dead last in passing? How does Vick NOT deserve to be looked upon as a RB that stands behind the center instead of a quality NFL quarterback at this point?

 

Vick has started 4 years, and led them to the playoffs for two of them with winning records once to the NFC championship game

 

Where they got exposed and slapped around by the Eagles.

 

and once to the second round.

 

Where they only mustered 6 points to, once again, the Eagles.

Edited May 16, 2007 by KingPK

[The Niggardly King 0]

I'd compare Vick to Vince Carter in a lot of ways. Both guys know what they should be doing, and can take over a game... but for whatever reason... they do not have the mental capacity to do so on a consistent basis.

[LaParkaMarka 0]

Hey, nice to see another FO person here. Who are you on their boards?

 

One can make the argument that scheme screwed things up with Vick. That amazing 2002 season was with Dan Reeves, and he was injured in 2003. 2004 had Mora coming in with the WCO, and that may have contributed to drop in DPAR. It's not like the guy hurt his shoulder and he became less accurate, there has to be something going on with scheme or personnel that caused the numbers to drop so significantly. The (alleged) lack of work ethic may play a part in this too, if the guy didn't work on really learning the new scheme.

 

Anyways, the on-field Vick is a much different monster than the off-field Vick. Even if they wanted to get rid of him, it isn't going to happen anytime soon due to the cap hit, and getting rid of him would pretty much require a superstar in return (who is going to trade a star for Vick now?). Blank has put a huge investment on the guy and without Vick the Georgia Dome might be half empty. For better or worse they're stuck with the guy.

[Art Sandusky 0]

I'd buy that.

 

EDIT: the Vick = Vince Carter comparison, that is.