NFL Discussion Forumtable

[Guest Vitamin X]

Brett Favre says he's mad at the Packers' front office for not committing to a run for the championship, neglecting to get Randy Moss. But this is coming from the guy who's skipping a mini-camp to go to graduation parties with his daughter. If all you want is to win, then you, as the best player on the Green Bay Packers, need to be there. So which is it? Are you committed to a run for the championship, or are you satisfied with being Football Clemens? Brett Favre, who you crappin'?

 

Two things: Minicamps are more for newcomers and rookies than anyone else on the team. And, as snuffy mentioned, Favre is rehabbing his ankle and is attending his daughter's high school graduation. Give credit to him for being a good father, especially considering he is continuing to play instead of retire in spite of him being with his family more often. Of all the players on the team, Favre is one of the few veterans and thus one of the last people who need to attend a stupid three day minicamp in the middle of May. Give him crap if he doesn't show up to training camp because he wants to mow the lawn down in Mississippi for a few more days or something, but not for this.

 

It doesn't matter. Even if he can't practice at 100%, he should be there to work with Rodgers, especially since Favre is surely more susceptible to an ankle injury now. If the organization wants him there to contribute in some form, which they obviously do, as this is a mandatory mini-camp from which Favre has not been excused, then he should be there. Favre is forfeiting some sympathy by blowing off training camp. It's harder to buy "I want a championship in 2007" when he's only showing up when he wants to.

Aaron Rodgers is also not attending the mini-camp because of his midseason injury last year when Favre went down in the New England game, and as Porter mentioned, Favre wasn't happy about Green Bay drafting Rodgers and also isn't a big fan of mentoring him.. which as I said a couple seasons ago, while it is kind of a grumpy old man attitude to take, he has a good point, Favre plays an extremely unorthodox style and Rodgers wouldn't benefit all that much to have him there.. Again, not for a stupid 3 day minicamp in the middle of May. Look around the league and you'll note that most teams don't have a lot of their long-time veterans at these things. It's not a big deal.

 

Y'know, when Favre does leave, What does that team really have going for it? I could see them finishing last in the division in a few seasons.

 

The defense, definitely. A.J. Hawk, Nick Barnett, the young guys on the defensive line, and a decent veteran secondary. It would be especially weird if they morphed into a version of how the Bears are these days. And they just finished last in the division in 2005.

 

I'd compare Vick to Vince Carter in a lot of ways. Both guys know what they should be doing, and can take over a game... but for whatever reason... they do not have the mental capacity to do so on a consistent basis.

 

Good, accurate comparison there.

[The Man in Blak 0]

Hey, nice to see another FO person here. Who are you on their boards?

 

I don't actually post there, but I've lurked around the stats pages for a while now. There are still some adjustments to some of their statistics that I'd like to see but, overall, it's an excellent site for football analysis.

 

I'd compare Vick to Vince Carter in a lot of ways. Both guys know what they should be doing, and can take over a game... but for whatever reason... they do not have the mental capacity to do so on a consistent basis.

 

I think that comparison makes a lot of sense, especially when you consider the expectations that surrounded both players early on in their career.

 

One can make the argument that scheme screwed things up with Vick. That amazing 2002 season was with Dan Reeves, and he was injured in 2003. 2004 had Mora coming in with the WCO, and that may have contributed to drop in DPAR. It's not like the guy hurt his shoulder and he became less accurate, there has to be something going on with scheme or personnel that caused the numbers to drop so significantly. The (alleged) lack of work ethic may play a part in this too, if the guy didn't work on really learning the new scheme.

 

I understand this argument to a certain extent, but the criticisms and complaints about Vick's reputation versus his actual performance have been out there for a while now. It's true that the first year or so of a new scheme can bring about a little bit of transition, but Vick has been a mediocre quarterback at best for three years running now, with (arguably) better talent around him than he had for his breakout season in 2002. The same poor fundamentals that existed early on his career are still readily apparent today.

 

There's a new coach coming in and a new system to learn, but the more important factor in Vick's performance, in my opinion, is how the Falcons approach his performance. For Arthur Blank to say that Vick hasn't been coddled by the organization is laughable, as more and more people come out to attest to Vick's negligence of any sort of rules or accountability.

 

Anyways, the on-field Vick is a much different monster than the off-field Vick. Even if they wanted to get rid of him, it isn't going to happen anytime soon due to the cap hit, and getting rid of him would pretty much require a superstar in return (who is going to trade a star for Vick now?). Blank has put a huge investment on the guy and without Vick the Georgia Dome might be half empty. For better or worse they're stuck with the guy.

 

This is true - as much as the fans may want to see him traded away, the reality behind the situation is that it isn't going to happen.

[Ripper 0]

And anyone expecting anything else out of Vick is, well...stupid. 2 playoff appearances with wins in 4 years as a starter. Not exactly the makings of a bust.

 

Technically, he's started for five years - he missed a good chunk of the 2003 season due to a pre-season injury.

 

But, while we're looking at selective endpoints, how about this: the Atlanta Falcons have only made the playoffs once in the last four years and have completely missed the postseason over the last two years, when the NFC has been absolutely dreadful.

 

In 2002, Vick was one of the most valuable players in the league, but he has taken a firm step down from that, especially as a passer. Football Outsiders has a stat called Defensive Points Above Replacement (DPAR) that is used to measure the effectiveness of a player, compared to other players at his position and adjusted for multiple factors, including the strength of defenses on the schedule. DPAR shows that, after putting up an great campaign in 2002, Vick has undergone a major regression as a passer:

 

Vick's Passing DPAR

2002: 59.6 (10th in the NFL)

2003: -2.9 (33rd in the NFL - injury shortened season)

2004: -18.5 (37th in the NFL)

2005: 12.9 (26th in the NFL)

2006: -6.3 (37th in the NFL)

 

His abilities as a rusher (which add about ~20-30 DPAR each year) have salvaged much of the value that he has lost as a passer, but the stats show that his performance is far away from his reputation. Vick really hasn't been a premier quarterback in the league for the last four years, which is a period of time where many fans have expected Vick to develop and improve as a player.

 

Furthermore, Vick has had very little impact on the success that the Falcons have had in the playoffs - the two postseason wins that they've had under his tenure involved one of the worst playoff teams in recent memory (the 2004 St. Louis Rams) and a "career-defining win" over the Packers in Lambeau, where Vick had 181 total yards from scrimmage and Brett Favre failed to complete half of his attempts (20/42, 247 yards, 2 INTs). His last playoff game was a 27-10 squash from the Eagles, where he had 26 yards rushing and went 11/24 in pass attempts (1 INT).

 

If you're willing to look beyond over half a dozen different off-the-field incidents, for whatever reason, that's fine, but I would at least consider the actual results of Vick's performance before saying that he's carried the Falcons to anything.

 

 

LOL. Cute. You want to count the year he played 4 games and went 3-1, fine.

 

The falcons have won 2 times in the last 5 years when Vick misses a game. Or it might be 3.

 

Oddly when he doesn't play the team doesn't win. Like...ever. That is a unarguable point.

 

And after having that "one of the most valuable players in the league" season...I wonder what happend. It couldn't have had ANYTHING to do with a coach change and a offensive coordinator who thought "Recivers don't need to run more than 3-4 routes to be effective. ANd "I don't write audibles into my plays because if ran the way they are supposed to be ran you won't need one" and a offensive line coach that fined his guys for being over 300lbs and couldn't get a single push on the line in goaline and short yardage situations AND couldn't protect the QB for shit. No. It couldn't be that.

 

He went from very good QB with mediocre talent to mediocre QB with better talent. Did Vick digress or was it coaching. I say coaching. He has a real offensive line this year and a real offensive coordinator so we will see. But I do know this. The falcons sucked. HARD. The only reason they have any expectations about them is because of what Vick did his first full year and second full year under center. He played great under one coach and not so great under another. I could see peoples point if at no point did Vick play well. Then I would understand. But to anyone that watches a falcons game and watchs the offensive line get put on their asses or watched Tyson Clabo play great for the falcons at the guard, the falcons won, but then he weighed in over 300lbs and got benched and they started losing again, I think you would be hard pressed to blame Vick for most of their losses. Yes, he has had plenty of bad games, just like every other QB in the league. But the problems with this team was much much bigger at other positions and it started at the coaching.

 

And I don't think the Vince Carter comparison is really a good one. I don't think you can question Vicks drive or desire which is the questions about Vince. I think that Tracy Mcgrady would be a better one. He tries damn hard and is a competitor, but he also bails out the other team with his flaws(vicks unwillingness to toss the ball away, or hold it with two hands, or McGrady's taking jumpers all the time) and hasn't won as much as he should.

[MrRant 0]

But at what point Ripper do you give up on him? If he blows this year again, will you remove your support?

[Ripper 0]

Yeah, pretty much.

 

Piterno has brought in a oline with real size and putting in a power running game. If he gets time and still doesn't produce, then yeah time for him to move on. HIs two good years bought him two mediocre years in my eyes. Now he has a better system, a better line...the offense should produce more. Simple as that.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

Alex Brown wants to be traded, but in his words, "It's not about that I'm unhappy. I just want to explore other options."... umm how about waiting til your contract expires before doing so?

[LaParkaMarka 0]

It's not such a bad thing. The Bears are deep at DE, while teams like the Redskins are desperate for help there. If they can turn Alex Brown into a first round pick next year, they should.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

I'm not complaining from the perspective of the team. It's just a bad idea to be like "Well Im fine with Chicago. I just want a trade." especially when you have three years on your deal. It's not the Briggs situation where he's been franchised. It's just him wanting to see if other teams love him more than Chicago.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

Considering the age of the team and the promise they showed last year, overall Green Bay is probably going to be getting better over the next few seasons rather than worse. They made significant strides late last year on both defense and along the offensive line, and that's where you start successfully rebuilding a team. They are definitely better than Detroit, and probably better than Minnesota too.

 

Favre's now going to camp by the way, according to Adam Schefter.

 

http://www.nfl.com/nflnetwork/story/10184868

 

FAVRE'S REVERSE

 

Packers quarterback Brett Favre is supposed to be resting his ankle after offseason surgery, but now he's running a reverse.

 

After telling his hometown newspaper he would not attend the Packers minicamp this weekend, Favre now is expected to be in attendance, even participating in drills.

 

In a few days, we'll see Brett Favre in a red jersey again.

 

The Packers insist they are not surprised. This morning, one Packers official predicted Favre would be at the weekend minicamp.

 

Packers coach Mike McCarthy had been telling those within his organization he expected Favre at this minicamp all along.

 

Yet earlier this week, Favre told the Sun Herald he wouldn't be coming; he would be attending his eldest daughter Brittany's high school graduation. Brittany is graduating May 25.

 

The Packers had not excused Favre from their mandatory minicamp.

 

Now, with all the speculation surrounding Favre's unhappiness over the team's failure to trade for wide receiver Randy Moss, and all the questions about whether he would be at the minicamp, the quarterback has decided to answer all those questions himself.

[MFer 0]

I'm excited about the offseason moves the Lions have made, but it's still the Lions, so I won't hold my breath. I like the fact that they added some speed and athleticism with Tatum Bell and the drafting of Calvin Johnson. Green Bay is a solid but unspectacular team. It'll be interesting to see how their RB situation pans out. I actually like the Vikings to finish ahead of the Packers. They already have a great O-line with Hutchinson, McKinnie and Birk and a great run defense with Kevin and Pat Williams. Chester Taylor had a great year last season and adding AD to the mix will help greatly. Minnesota also added Rice and McCauley in the draft. Chicago will still probably win the North but I don't think it'll be a runaway. We'll see if Hester succeeds as an offensive weapon.

[The Man in Blak 0]

LOL. Cute. You want to count the year he played 4 games and went 3-1, fine.

 

You must have overlooked where I put "injury shortened season" next to that stat line. Obviously, he missed a large percentage of the games that year, but that doesn't mean that you completely toss it out - you evaluate what you have accordingly. And, even if you remove the 2003 season, the statistical trend of poor performance is still very evident; 2003, small sample size and all, only reinforces it.

 

Also, I'd like to emphasize that the Falcons went 3-1 in those four games, not Michael Vick. Here's how much Vick contributed to the last four games of the 2003 season:

 

Week 14 (CAR): 16/33, 179 pass yds, 1 INT (141 rush yds, 1 rush TD)

Week 15 (IND): 6/19, 47 pass yds, 1 INT (30 rush yds)

Week 16 (TAM): 8/15, 119 pass yds, 2 TD (39 rush yds)

Week 17 (JAX): 12/22, 180 pass yds, 2 TD, 1 INT (29 rush yds)

 

I could understand where you were coming from if Vick was dropping three or four TDs, completing 60% of his passes, and running for 100 every game, but there's one decent game in that series (Carolina) and very little else for the remainder of the season. Let's not get carried away here.

 

The falcons have won 2 times in the last 5 years when Vick misses a game. Or it might be 3.

 

Oddly when he doesn't play the team doesn't win. Like...ever. That is a unarguable point.

 

And it's a point that speaks more to the mismanagement of the Falcons, in my opinion. Vick has only missed one game since 2003 and, in that one game, the Falcons came dangerously close to beating the Patriots with Matt Schaub chalking up almost 300 yards and three touchdown passes.

 

That leaves the 2003 season as the main body of evidence for your argument, when the backup quarterbacks were Doug Johnson (-3.4 DPAR) and Kurt Kittner (-25.3 DPAR), both of whom were unbelievably bad. And it's not like that season was just a bad year for either of those guys: Kittner's 2003 season was his only year in the league and Johnson inspired so many potential free agent suitors with his play in 2003 that he accumulated a whopping total of 12 passing attempts over the next three seasons that followed.

 

I won't contend that the Falcons make the playoffs in 2003 with a serviceable backup, but I'd be very willing to bet that they don't lose seven of the first eight games that season.

 

And after having that "one of the most valuable players in the league" season...I wonder what happend. It couldn't have had ANYTHING to do with a coach change and a offensive coordinator who thought "Recivers don't need to run more than 3-4 routes to be effective. ANd "I don't write audibles into my plays because if ran the way they are supposed to be ran you won't need one" and a offensive line coach that fined his guys for being over 300lbs and couldn't get a single push on the line in goaline and short yardage situations AND couldn't protect the QB for shit. No. It couldn't be that.

 

Depending on how much weight you put into the various allegations that surrounded his relationship with Dan Reeves in 2003 (which included a notorious photo of Arthur Blank pushing Vick around in a wheelchair), you might believe that Michael Vick may have a hand in bringing that coaching change upon himself. And, given that Mora and Knapp coached the team to the NFC Championship in his first season, it's hard for me to accept that the Falcons somehow couldn't succeed under the "second regime", unless they just completely lost the locker room (where, once again, we encounter more allegations surrounding Vick's character and "quality" as a leader).

 

Secondly, I find it curious that you would suggest that the offensive line has been greatly hampering Vick's performance. The quarterback that they're protecting in Atlanta isn't Drew Bledsoe - he's supposed to be one of the most athletic and mobile quarterbacks in the history of the sport. Isn't his skill for improvisation supposed to be one of his strengths?

[Boon 0]

That half-week of Favre's rehab must've really been great.

 

Re: Vick

It's all a moot point if this dog-fighting thing comes down. Then you can start arguing about Joey Harrington!

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

Favre is such a dick. He said that he didn't go to mini-camp because it (camp) isn't that fun.

 

All he needed was a "We talkin bout practice."

[snuffbox 0]

Not going to minicamp (like so many others in the NFL): BAD!

Going to minicamp: BAD!

 

Dur dur dur!

[Guest Vitamin X]

How DARE he change his mind in the face of criticism!

[The Niggardly King 0]

Hey did you guys know there's a new RANDY MOSS running around. He showed up to training camp! That says more than that indecisive turd, Favre.

[Guest Vitamin X]

Terrell Owens showed up to his as well. What is the world coming to.

[LaParkaMarka 0]

Hopefully Tom Brady and Marvin Harrison skip, just to make things more fun.

[Boon 0]

It's a far cry from "HE'S NOT PHYSICALLY ABLE TO GO!" to "HE CHANGED HIS MIND IN THE FACE OF CRITICISM!"

[snuffbox 0]

More insipid posting from Boon.

[Darthtiki 0]

Another Bengals arrest:

 

CINCINNATI (AP) -- Linebacker A.J. Nicholson was arrested on a domestic violence charge Friday, the first arrest of a Cincinnati Bengals' player since commissioner Roger Goodell cracked down on misconduct last month.

 

Nicholson already was one of nine Bengals players arrested during a nine-month span, turning the team into a prime example of player misconduct. The team had gone four months without having a player arrested.

 

Police in nearby Taylor Mill, Ky., arrested Nicholson after a woman called 911 on Friday afternoon to say she had been assaulted by the second-year player. He was charged with fourth-degree assault, a misdemeanor.

 

Goodell introduced a new conduct policy last month that stiffens penalties and holds franchises responsible when their players get into trouble.

 

Nicholson, a fifth-round draft pick from Florida State in 2006, appeared in only two games last season, when he had a hamstring injury.

 

 

 

Last March, Nicholson pleaded no contest to burglary and grand theft in Tallahassee, Fla., and was sentenced to two months in a work program. He had been charged with stealing electronic equipment and other items from the apartment of a former Florida State teammate.

 

Nicholson was also placed on two years' probation, which could be jeopardized by his latest arrest.

 

Taylor Mill police chief Steve Knauf said a woman called police to Nicholson's apartment at 3:10 p.m. on Friday, saying she had been hit in the face. The officer who responded saw that the woman had an injury by her eye.

 

Nicholson wasn't at the apartment, but later showed up at the police station and was arrested, Knauf said. He faces up to 12 months in jail and a $500 fine if convicted.

 

Bengals spokesman Jack Brennan said the team had no immediate comment because it was still gathering information on the arrest.

 

The Bengals lead the league in off-the-field player problems.

 

Receiver Chris Henry and middle linebacker Odell Thurman currently are suspended by the league for misconduct. Henry has been arrested four times since December 2005, and will miss the first eight games next season under a suspension imposed by Goodell last month.

 

Thurman was suspended for all of last season after skipping a drug test and getting arrested for drunken driving. Last February, he pleaded no contest to drunken driving and received a 90-day jail sentence that was put on hold while he got treated for alcohol abuse.

 

Thurman's sentence could be reduced at a hearing in June if he stays out of trouble and completes the treatment program. Also, he could apply to the league for reinstatement for next season.

 

Six of the Bengals' picks from the 2005-06 drafts have been arrested, including Nicholson. The linebacker already had disciplinary issues when the Bengals took a chance on him.

 

Nicholson was suspended for Florida State's appearance in the 2006 Orange Bowl after he violated team policy by taking a woman to the team's hotel in Miami.

 

A month after the Bengals drafted him, he faced the criminal charges in Florida. He and another Florida State player, Fred Rouse, were accused of breaking into the apartment of former teammate Lorenzo Booker and stealing items.

[devo 0]

Justin Miller was arrested for getting in a fight in Manhattan yesterday.

 

http://www.newyorkjets.com/news/articles/s...ller-apologizes

 

I'm hoping that since it's his first offense and it wasn't that serious, he'll be able to avoid suspension.

[the pinjockey 0]

Goodbye Chris Henry, enjoy your future in the AFL (they would probably take a chance on him, right?)

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2877555

Suspended Bengals receiver Chris Henry reportedly failed a court-ordered drug test and will have to serve 88 days in jail.

 

Kenton County (Kentucky) Attorney Garry Edmondson said that Henry tested positive for opiates and he will be forced to serve jail time.

 

Henry's failed drug test was first reported by WKRC-TV in Cincinnati.

 

Henry is on probation in Florida. It's unclear whether the reported drug test results will force him to serve jail time there.

 

The Bengals told ESPN's Bob Holtzman that they expect to release a statement regarding Henry later Monday.

 

Henry, who has been arrested four times since December 2005, has been suspended for the first eight games of next season for violating the NFL's conduct policies. He spent two days in jail last January after pleading guilty to letting minors drink alcohol in a hotel room he had rented.

 

Henry received traffic tickets on March 25 for driving with a suspended license, failing to use his turn signal and a seat belt violation. He was allowed to go into a license intervention program to settle the charges.

 

Henry is permitted to work out at the Bengals' facilities in the offseason and participate in training camp, including preseason games. He won't be allowed to practice with the team when the regular season begins. He will be reinstated after the eighth game if he stays out of trouble.

 

"I must emphasize to you that this is your last opportunity to salvage your NFL career," NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell wrote Henry when he suspended him. "I urge you to take full advantage of the resources available to support you in that effort."

[Hawk 34 0]

Goodbye Chris Henry, enjoy your future in the AFL (they would probably take a chance on him, right?)

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2877555

 

Not so fast. Might just get more time to fuck it up.

 

Marvin Frazier, the New Jersey-based agent for Bengals wide receiver Chris Henry, today denied a Kenton Country prosecutor's claim that Henry failed a drug test.

 

"The final result is negative," Frazier told the Enquirer. "It's all (nonsense)."

 

Frazier said he talked this afternoon with Bengals player relations director Eric Ball, and Ball told Frazier that the final test was negative.

 

 

Ken Easterling, a Kenton County prosecutor, today said initial results indicated that Bengals wide receiver Chris Henry failed a drug test.

 

However, Easterling stressed that Kenton County is awaiting final analysis from the Kentucky state lab.

 

"We cannot confirm or deny (Henry's test sample) contains a controlled substance," he said.

 

Easterling talked to the Enquirer following comments made by Kenton County prosecutor Gary Edmondson, who told television reporters this morning that Henry failed the drug test and that he could be facing jail time.

 

The Bengals this afternoon released the following statement:

 

"For Chris Henry to return playing NFL football, the Bengals understand that he must comply with certain legal and NFL-related procedures. To date, to the Club’s knowledge, Chris has been complying with those procedures, and the Club is not aware at this point of any circumstance in which Chris has not complied with his obligations.

 

"With respect to the Northern Kentucky proceedings, reports to date may not be based on complete information. More information is expected to be made available shortly, once all the procedural tests are complete, and the Club will await any action until that information has been released."

[MFer 0]

Um...

 

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/foot...ex.html?cnn=yes

[Ripper 0]

Um...

 

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/foot...ex.html?cnn=yes

 

 

sigh...

 

this is why every team should hire a quote man for their players. Any time they get asked a question, the quote man comes up and tells them what to say. This was just other worldly stupid.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

Oh, they didn't even put in the best part from that interview. Portis says that dog fighting isn't illegal, to which the interviewer responds that it's actually a felony. Without missing a beat, Portis says that if so, it's not that bad of a felony.

 

Not that bad of a felony?

[Guest Smues]

Um...

 

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/foot...ex.html?cnn=yes

 

What a bunch of idiots. I'll leave it at that.

[Vanhalen 0]

What do people think of Paul Allen as an owner?

[LaParkaMarka 0]

Oh, they didn't even put in the best part from that interview. Portis says that dog fighting isn't illegal, to which the interviewer responds that it's actually a felony. Without missing a beat, Portis says that if so, it's not that bad of a felony.

 

Not that bad of a felony?

 

I assume he means "not that bad of a felony, compared to rape/murder/etc".