The border war...

[snuffbox 0]

I think Agent just copied a Glen Beck episode word for word. Well played!

[Dobbs 3K 0]

How 'bout this: I think immigrants (illegal or not) should make the minimum wage. Does that make me racist?

[EricMM 0]

That's not what makes you racist.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

Oh, I'm sorry, I'm not falling into this mold you're trying to cast me in.

[Ripper 0]

How 'bout this: I think immigrants (illegal or not) should make the minimum wage. Does that make me racist?

 

It depends. Do you mean they should make more or they should make at least?

[EricMM 0]

Do you mean, Ripper, "Do you think that they should make AT LEAST minimum wage or NO MORE THAN minimum wage"?

 

I'm fairly sure he means the former...

[Ripper 0]

Do you mean, Ripper, "Do you think that they should make AT LEAST minimum wage or NO MORE THAN minimum wage"?

 

I'm fairly sure he means the former...

Yeah, thats what I meant. I left off the "n't" on that should.

[snuffbox 0]

Dick Russell said he wasn't racist either. There were good reasons to fight against anti-lynching legislation!

[Dobbs 3K 0]

Yes, they should make at least minimum wage. Companies aren't entitled to discounted labor, regardless of the person's origin.

[snuffbox 0]

Are you familiar with how the fruit/vegetable industry works, Invader?

[Ripper 0]

not claiming to be a expert, but aren't they paid by how much they pick, not how long?

 

And I can say for certainty that you aren't going to find a day worker on a construction site making less that 12-14 bucks a hour.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

Oh, I didn't realize they were all working in the produce industry, sorry.

[EricMM 0]

For certain, Ripper?

[Ripper 0]

For certain, Ripper?

 

 

Well lets just say I have never met one making less. You would think i would have run into one by now. certainty was probably strong, seeing as I guess there are day workers in smaller towns. Let me change that to in Atlanta, you aren't finding a day worker on a construction site making less than that.

[Guest panthermatt7]

I haven't posted in quite awhile, but I actually have some thoughts on this topic, so I thought I'd weigh in. First off, thanks to everyone who has been posting on this topic -- you've done a stellar job of keeping me awake at work. Something about working for an insurance company just doesn't excite me.

 

Anyway -- I am from Iowa, where there are several meat packing plants which rely on illegal immigrants as their employees. One city in particular, Storm Lake, has been the subject of a few raids and arrests. That city actually has a solid Hispanic majority, vastly illegal, and I think there is a lesson to be learned by what has happened there: the displacement of many middle class workers, who lost their jobs as a result of the Hispanic influx, has been a tremendous burden on surrounding communities. I think that serves as a potential model for the United States to be concerned about, if the mass additions of illegal aliens to our economy continues undeterred.

 

There are two major problems which our economy faces today. Well, there are more than two, but these are the issues I am most concerned about: outsourcing and employment of illegal aliens. In both of these activities, there is one primary beneficiary -- business owners, particularly large corporations. Even my company, which is a Fortune 500 organization, chose to move some jobs to India last year. That served to alienate (no pun intended) a small portion of our clientele, as well as upset many employees. While these processes elevate the upper class, there is one class section that they serve to significantly damage: the middle class.

 

I don't buy the argument that illegal immigrants just do the work that no one else is willing to do. There are many people struggling to find jobs, that would do damn near anything to support their families. I've seen way too many Iowans in that boat.

 

I understand that America is the 'melting pot.' I understand that our ancestors themselves were immigrants. And, I understand that without some degree of immigration, our economy would collapse. Legal immigration is not what I take issue with. We need to take whatever steps are necessary (fines, taxes, prison time, etc) to punish both illegal immigrants AND the corporations that pay them. The same penalty also needs to apply to companies that are paying foreign employees, specifically when they reside in areas that allow them to be paid far less.

 

Whew... okay... sorry for the novel. These are just some assorted thoughts from just after lunch break. Let me know if anyone agrees or disagrees, I'm a fan of intelligent debate. As long as I don't get the racist card played on me by snuffbox. ;-)

[Ripper 0]

My problem is that if you were working in a meat packing plant, you weren't middle class to begain with. People in the lowest income bracket (those just above the poverty line) haven't seen any difficulty in finding work. Finding good paying work is the problem. The Middle class is being destroyed by outsourcing because that is where the middle class income is going.

 

You can't say its an attack on the middle class and at the same time point to the lowest paying jobs and showing that as an example. Outsourcing happens at a much higher rate and is the main source of their losses.

 

And once again (I know i am repeating myself here) you are talking about fines, taxes, prison time, etc. for poor people trying to feed their families. You see that as an acceptable end? This is what these obsenely expensive raids are doing. Spending money to punish people that are just trying to survive. I just don't see the good in that.

[Guest cobainwasmurdered]

How exactly are they supposed to pay fines? And sticking even more people in prison is only going to be a bigger drain on the economy.

[Guest panthermatt7]

My problem is that if you were working in a meat packing plant, you weren't middle class to begain with. People in the lowest income bracket (those just above the poverty line) haven't seen any difficulty in finding work. Finding good paying work is the problem. The Middle class is being destroyed by outsourcing because that is where the middle class income is going.

 

You can't say its an attack on the middle class and at the same time point to the lowest paying jobs and showing that as an example. Outsourcing happens at a much higher rate and is the main source of their losses.

 

And once again (I know i am repeating myself here) you are talking about fines, taxes, prison time, etc. for poor people trying to feed their families. You see that as an acceptable end? This is what these obsenely expensive raids are doing. Spending money to punish people that are just trying to survive. I just don't see the good in that.

 

I like your points. However, I regard illegal immigration as hurting the lower class AND middle class. I guess it kind of depends where you place the break at. Most people would describe my family as middle class, but they're on the verge of being lower if you took away my mother's income -- my dad does not do a very appealing job to make ends meet, but it STILL wasn't easy for him to find. I'm not in the seemingly growing group of people who think that there are way more jobs available than there are people to take them.

 

I actually meant directing the fines toward the companies, not the aliens themselves. As far as the illegal immigrants, deportation would be the extent of punishment. Obviously they don't deserve to be punished, starved, etc. However, they could have taken the time to gain citizenship. And OF COURSE we need to lower the requirements of citizenship, that's not even questionable; but to me, there's somewhere that you have to draw the line with humanitarian issues. As much as I'd like for our government and businesses to be able to keep everyone alive and make all the right choices, we're not a charity.

 

 

How exactly are they supposed to pay fines? And sticking even more people in prison is only going to be a bigger drain on the economy.

 

My bad for not being more specific in my post -- I meant the fines and prison time should be directed at the companies that employ the illegal immigrants. The immigrants themselves should either be deported, or given the option to stay and go through the legal means of citizenship.

[Ripper 0]

I don't think I can agree with your reasoning behind the line of middle and lower class. If you remove income from most people they will change income class. Trust me, I don't believe that there is some big glut of jobs sitting out there for the taking, but the lower class, low paying jobs have not seen a decline in available work and the jobless rate amoung the lower class has not gone up or down with the influx of illegals. Thats one thing that has been pretty constant. Anything at or below the poverty line in pay is still pretty much there. Joblessness has hit educated, middleclass workers the hardest and the blame can be on a slowing down economy and on outsourcing. Once again, neither of which have anything to do with illegal immigration.

 

As for punishing the companies, yes they know that the employees are illegals, but they also have one HUGE work around. The illegals that they employee more times than not have a social security number and paperwork to say they are a citizen. Sure, they KNOW that they are illegal, but they have all the paper work, and the employees pay taxes, and are making at least mininum wage. Its hard to prosecute them when they have employees with papers. That is the loophole, but at the end of the day, it is a loophole where the goverment collects and that is the real reason they aren't being to big on the illegal immigration issue.

 

 

And I personally don't believe in drawing the line in humanitarian issues. Why?

[snuffbox 0]

Oh, I didn't realize they were all working in the produce industry, sorry.

 

It is well established that you have NO idea what you are talking about. At all.

 

You should have a tv show.

[Guest panthermatt7]

I don't think I can agree with your reasoning behind the line of middle and lower class. If you remove income from most people they will change income class. Trust me, I don't believe that there is some big glut of jobs sitting out there for the taking, but the lower class, low paying jobs have not seen a decline in available work and the jobless rate amoung the lower class has not gone up or down with the influx of illegals. Thats one thing that has been pretty constant. Anything at or below the poverty line in pay is still pretty much there. Joblessness has hit educated, middleclass workers the hardest and the blame can be on a slowing down economy and on outsourcing. Once again, neither of which have anything to do with illegal immigration.

 

As for punishing the companies, yes they know that the employees are illegals, but they also have one HUGE work around. The illegals that they employee more times than not have a social security number and paperwork to say they are a citizen. Sure, they KNOW that they are illegal, but they have all the paper work, and the employees pay taxes, and are making at least mininum wage. Its hard to prosecute them when they have employees with papers. That is the loophole, but at the end of the day, it is a loophole where the goverment collects and that is the real reason they aren't being to big on the illegal immigration issue.

 

 

And I personally don't believe in drawing the line in humanitarian issues. Why?

 

The reason I believe in drawing the line in humanitarian issues is this: there comes a point when you can't help everyone, because you just plain run out of money. Our country has a hard enough time ponying up charity dollars for our own impoverished, let alone another country's. I agree with the sentiment that outsourcing is a more pressing issue, but this is one that we should resolve as well.

 

Are you telling me that as illegal immigrants continue pouring over the border, we won't eventually run out of lower-class jobs? Especially with the stock market likely headed for a crash, I think that is kind of naive.

[Gary Floyd 0]

I recently wrote a song about the issue of immigration today. I feel that it makes a very powerful and bold statement.

 

It's called "Lick My Love Pump"

[NoCalMike 0]

I don't think I can agree with your reasoning behind the line of middle and lower class. If you remove income from most people they will change income class. Trust me, I don't believe that there is some big glut of jobs sitting out there for the taking, but the lower class, low paying jobs have not seen a decline in available work and the jobless rate amoung the lower class has not gone up or down with the influx of illegals. Thats one thing that has been pretty constant. Anything at or below the poverty line in pay is still pretty much there. Joblessness has hit educated, middleclass workers the hardest and the blame can be on a slowing down economy and on outsourcing. Once again, neither of which have anything to do with illegal immigration.

 

As for punishing the companies, yes they know that the employees are illegals, but they also have one HUGE work around. The illegals that they employee more times than not have a social security number and paperwork to say they are a citizen. Sure, they KNOW that they are illegal, but they have all the paper work, and the employees pay taxes, and are making at least mininum wage. Its hard to prosecute them when they have employees with papers. That is the loophole, but at the end of the day, it is a loophole where the goverment collects and that is the real reason they aren't being to big on the illegal immigration issue.

 

 

And I personally don't believe in drawing the line in humanitarian issues. Why?

 

 

Well the idea is for wages to go up. To have some sort of standard. When the labor market is flooded and over-crowded with cheap labor, it breaks unions and drives down wages. Illegal Immigration allows wages to fall. This notion that "americans won't do these jobs" is false. The truth is American Companies won't pay american's to do these jobs because it might take away from profit margins. Also, when you support companies hiring illegal immigration you are also supporting labor exploitation that we are trying to be a better country about. A lot of day laborers are not being paid minimum wage and labor laws are not being upheld, but this is really what big business has wanted all along, to send our good paying jobs overseas where they can pay people less, and then import cheap labor on the homefront to keep wages down here too.

 

People talk about illegals representing the low-level unskilled work force, but excuse me, working in construction should be considered "un-skilled labor" I don't want un-skilled people building houses where you have to get repair work done a year into moving in because the people working on it were inept and unskilled. How is that a good thing for anybody but the developers that want cheap labor? This whole notion that the "economy is great" is a crock. It is great for the people in charge, while low-wage workers' salaries have not gone up at all and illegal immigration is a part of that.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

Oh, I didn't realize they were all working in the produce industry, sorry.

 

It is well established that you have NO idea what you are talking about. At all.

 

You should have a tv show.

 

Yeah, I was thinking of calling it "The View". Oh wait, that's your show.

[Big Ol' Smitty 0]

My problem is that if you were working in a meat packing plant, you weren't middle class to begain with.

 

There was a day when you were.

[Gary Floyd 0]

I'm more worried about Immigaytion.

 

You see, these cyborg super gays from Mexico who are also illegal immigrants will take a part in the rise of the machines. Fortunatley, Sarah Conner will lead the resistance-oh, and a series of movies will be made about it. They'll be known as "The Termigaytor" series.

 

So you see, whenever Invader3K is whining about illegal immigration, he's really just trying to warn us about the rise of the machines. How does he know about this? Well, he's from the future...

[Guest George's Box]

Oh, I didn't realize they were all working in the produce industry, sorry.

 

It is well established that you have NO idea what you are talking about. At all.

 

You should have a tv show.

 

Yeah, I was thinking of calling it "The View". Oh wait, that's your show.

OH NO YOU DINT

[Guest Tzar Lysergic]

How can you call literal fact hogwash? Illegals are paying for housing. There is no debating that. They are paying for food. No debating that. They are paying for gas, clothing, entertainment. You are calling it hogwash because they are sending some money back to their families at home.

 

Who else is sending, lets say 60% of what they bring home (for the sake of the argument) across the border?

 

I guess I am not helping the economy because I have a savings account.

 

Of course not. You're saving it for something to buy here, aren't you?

 

And once again, BILLIONS of tax dollars are coming from the illegals also. The economy is not being screwed by illegals.

 

Except for the scores that are likely working under the table so their corrupt employers can more easily avoid getting raided.

 

4-5 times more jobs are lost to outsourcing, a MUCH cheaper alternative to the big coorperations and no reprecussions to it. But its more fun to point out the hispanics that you can see and say they are what is wrong with the economy.

 

Outsourcing is a completely different topic, and I'm opposed to that one too.

 

You want to point at the illegals in the prison system. And to combat that SMALL percentage, almost non existant, you say lets spend BILLIONS of dollars to deport a bunch of hard working poor people.

 

I'd rather try to prevent more from coming over.

 

That will save us like a couple of hundred thousand dollars on those prisoners! And it only cost us a few billion dollars to do!

 

How much would it cost to deport an illegal immigrant in the prison system to the country's prison system in which they belong?

 

Once again, if one person was making an argument saying we need to make sure that drugs aren't getting across the border, fine. But raiding places and getting rid of the poor people that are working there whose only crime is that they haven't gotten into the ridcilously over complicated citizenship procedures...thats not looking into national security or safety.

 

I'd like to make that process more streamlined, actually. I have absolutely zero problems with people that enter this country legally, and intend to contribute.

 

To quote Charles Barkley of all people, "Rich people do a great job at making poor people fight each other." How anyone can not respect anyone doing honest work to feed their family is beyond me.

 

What's honest about SNEAKING ACROSS THE BORDER?? These people would get shot if they were trying to walk into..Colombia or some shit.

 

Especially when it is coming from a bunch of people who didn't do a goddamned thing to "earn" the same rights they are trying to take away from these people. So your mom squeezed you out a few thousand miles north of where someone else is born. Whoopity. Someone and their family should starve because their mom was a few thousand miles south. At a certain point it becomes a question of common decency. Too many people lack it and have let the droves of impovrished men women and children become nothing more than a political talking point.

 

Are you saying that the majority of the people coming across the border are from families that are starving to death?

[Guest Tzar Lysergic]

Dick Russell said he wasn't racist either. There were good reasons to fight against anti-lynching legislation!

 

What on earth does this have to do with anything being discussed? Did someone call for lynching all illegal immigrants somewhere and I missed it?

[Guest Tzar Lysergic]

I'm more worried about Immigaytion.

 

You see, these cyborg super gays from Mexico who are also illegal immigrants will take a part in the rise of the machines. Fortunatley, Sarah Conner will lead the resistance-oh, and a series of movies will be made about it. They'll be known as "The Termigaytor" series.

 

So you see, whenever Invader3K is whining about illegal immigration, he's really just trying to warn us about the rise of the machines. How does he know about this? Well, he's from the future...

 

Are you going to contribute anything here? That's some Graphics Folder type shit.