1997

[RonL21 0]

I think this was the best year to be a wrestling fan...

 

-The Return of the Hart Foundation

-The continuing rise of Stone Cold

-Original DX

-Montreal Screwjob

-Sting's Return

-Rise of DDP

 

Help me out w/ more WCW..I was watching but just not every week like WWF/E

 

I know there were a lot of Nitos in 96 that don't hold water today as stated in previous threads..but I think everyone will admit 97 was much better...Once Sting was back in the Picture..Nitro actually deservingly beat Raw on Some Monday Nights..

 

Discuss....

[CanadianChris 0]

For me, a lot of the impact of the Sting angle is reduced after the fact, knowing how it ended.

[Red Baron 0]

1997 in WCW.

 

Cruiserweights. Jericho/Malenko/Dragon/Mysterio/Guerrero's.

[RonL21 0]

For me, a lot of the impact of the Sting angle is reduced after the fact, knowing how it ended.

I agree w/ that..I was watching Starcade 97 and was thoroughly dissapointed....But as far as thinking back and watching that stuff as it happened..it was great tv..i'll give them that..

[humanoid92 0]

This one is respectfully dedicated to Lushus, Chris, and Venkman. By the way, I want to make it clear that my recent statements against some popular opinions is done in good fun. I believe what I say, and I'm not trying to be disruptive just by going against the grain, but I also have nothing against any of you guys just because we disagree. And again, there really aren't many issues that we actually disagree on; for the most part I agree with a lot of what is said.

 

Anyway, I'm not here to crap on 1997 as a whole because truth be told I like a lot of stuff from that year. What's "best" is always going to be a personal preference and no matter how much hype it gets '97 will never be my favorite year. But I'm posting this because I think I finally found out one of the major things that keeps me from singing endless praises of '97 like everyone else does.

 

The PPVs.

 

There is so much brutal stuff on PPV in 1997. I can understand everyone remembering Raw fondly because it was quite a transition year and there was some legitimately good stuff on TV every week. The Owen vs. Bulldog match is an all-time favorite of mine, for one, and there are lots of good matches. A lot of the storylines were cutting edge at the time, before Russo went completely overboard in '98. So I can understand all the love for Raw.

 

But the PPVs just didn't do much for me. I'll try to keep this reasonable, but honestly, look at the PPVs:

 

- The Royal Rumble was pretty awful. I have nothing against the storyline with Austin and Bret, but the match itself was a snoozer, as was the rest of the card. The '95 and '96 Rumble matches aren't anything great either, but at least '95 had a really solid undercard, and '96 gave us a 30 minute Bret Hart Title match. I just don't like the '97 Rumble.

 

- Wrestlemania 13 was brutal in my opinion. Bret/Austin is great, even if I still think that match itself is overrated. That's not to say it isn't great; I just don't think it's the clear-cut, hands-down, untouchable #1 match everyone else swears by. But honestly, as a show as a whole, this is terrible. Until WM 15 came along, this immediately became my least favorite Wrestlemania of all-time (well, maybe not worse than 2, but that show was ancient anyway).

 

- King of the Ring. KOTR 95 will always stand out as the worst, and for good reason. But KOTR '97 was pretty bad in its own right. The four man tourney on PPV was always a stupid idea, but at least '96 had some redeeming value with the really good Austin/Mero match and the whole Austin 3:16 thing. This just had no redeeming value whatsoever. The Title match was pointless. No one believed Faarooq had any sort of chance whatsoever. And Austin vs. Michaels was just awkward. There was no reason (storyline or otherwise) for that match to take place. Other than '95 this had been the worst KOTR to date, but then KOTR as a whole became pretty horrible rather quickly.

 

- Summerslam. Easily the best big 5 show of the year, but still not a great show by any means. Bret and Taker had better matches but there was nothing wrong with this one. There's this misconception that Owen vs. Austin was headed in the direction of being some sort of classic before the piledriver, but go re-watch it and I'm confident you'll be disappointed. Other than the Hunter/Foley match, there's nothing else worth mentioning here. Definitely better than SS 96 but also definitely not one of the better Summerslams.

 

- Survivor Series. Infamous night, indeed. But other than the whole controversy this was a dreadful, worthless, show. Definitely one of the worst SS of all-time.

 

So right there, the big 5 only produced: one classic (Bret vs. Austin), one pretty good show (Summerslam), and outside of the classic, maybe two or three other matches that were worth anything. That's just not a very impressive record as far as I'm concerned.

 

- As for the In Your Houses, I love Candaian Stampede to death. One of my favorite PPVs. I'd never knock this show. Revenge of the Taker was actually a really solid card too. I like the Taker/Mankind and Bret/Austin matches. And the opener is good too. So that's a definite thumbs up. Final Four I think is overrated. It was just a mess. Bad concept, bad idea, and terrible direction- they had no idea where they were going with the belt or for WM. It's always amazed me that people love this concept/match/PPV because it just seems like the type of thing that would have people crapping on it if it A) didn't happen in 1997 and B) didn't involve Bret and Austin. The DX PPV was just bad and utterly pointless. I don't expect even the staunchest '97 supporter to defend that one. Cold Day In Hell wasn't all that great. And Ground Zero- bleh. That brings us to Badd Blood, which had a really good main event and not much else. I also think HIAC is overrated. Again, not that it isn't a great match, but the fact that it made it into the finals of the ongoing tournament here is a bit much. But just going off what had already happened at the time- compare these IYHs to the ones from '96. Not that I like '96 or anything, but the fact is those IYHs produced some killer matches. Rarely was there a show that was just completely worthless- even with a bad card, there was usually a Shawn vs. Mankind type match to save the show. '97 threw out 3 or 4 IYHs that had nothing to them whatsoever.

 

So I guess what I've been saying all this time when I find '97 to be overrated is that while I can understand considering Raw to be awesome during that time, most of the PPVs certainly were not. You've got Canadian Stampede, Revenge of the Taker, one match at Bad Blood, one match at Wrestlemania, and a few matches at Summerslam. Out of 12 shows. And the majority of everything else on PPV sucked. Just my opinion, as unpopular as it may be. Surely there's someone that can see where I'm coming from.

[RonL21 0]

This one is respectfully dedicated to Lushus, Chris, and Venkman. By the way, I want to make it clear that my recent statements against some popular opinions is done in good fun. I believe what I say, and I'm not trying to be disruptive just by going against the grain, but I also have nothing against any of you guys just because we disagree. And again, there really aren't many issues that we actually disagree on; for the most part I agree with a lot of what is said.

 

Anyway, I'm not here to crap on 1997 as a whole because truth be told I like a lot of stuff from that year. What's "best" is always going to be a personal preference and no matter how much hype it gets '97 will never be my favorite year. But I'm posting this because I think I finally found out one of the major things that keeps me from singing endless praises of '97 like everyone else does.

 

The PPVs.

 

There is so much brutal stuff on PPV in 1997. I can understand everyone remembering Raw fondly because it was quite a transition year and there was some legitimately good stuff on TV every week. The Owen vs. Bulldog match is an all-time favorite of mine, for one, and there are lots of good matches. A lot of the storylines were cutting edge at the time, before Russo went completely overboard in '98. So I can understand all the love for Raw.

 

But the PPVs just didn't do much for me. I'll try to keep this reasonable, but honestly, look at the PPVs:

 

- The Royal Rumble was pretty awful. I have nothing against the storyline with Austin and Bret, but the match itself was a snoozer, as was the rest of the card. The '95 and '96 Rumble matches aren't anything great either, but at least '95 had a really solid undercard, and '96 gave us a 30 minute Bret Hart Title match. I just don't like the '97 Rumble.

 

- Wrestlemania 13 was brutal in my opinion. Bret/Austin is great, even if I still think that match itself is overrated. That's not to say it isn't great; I just don't think it's the clear-cut, hands-down, untouchable #1 match everyone else swears by. But honestly, as a show as a whole, this is terrible. Until WM 15 came along, this immediately became my least favorite Wrestlemania of all-time (well, maybe not worse than 2, but that show was ancient anyway).

 

- King of the Ring. KOTR 95 will always stand out as the worst, and for good reason. But KOTR '97 was pretty bad in its own right. The four man tourney on PPV was always a stupid idea, but at least '96 had some redeeming value with the really good Austin/Mero match and the whole Austin 3:16 thing. This just had no redeeming value whatsoever. The Title match was pointless. No one believed Faarooq had any sort of chance whatsoever. And Austin vs. Michaels was just awkward. There was no reason (storyline or otherwise) for that match to take place. Other than '95 this had been the worst KOTR to date, but then KOTR as a whole became pretty horrible rather quickly.

 

- Summerslam. Easily the best big 5 show of the year, but still not a great show by any means. Bret and Taker had better matches but there was nothing wrong with this one. There's this misconception that Owen vs. Austin was headed in the direction of being some sort of classic before the piledriver, but go re-watch it and I'm confident you'll be disappointed. Other than the Hunter/Foley match, there's nothing else worth mentioning here. Definitely better than SS 96 but also definitely not one of the better Summerslams.

 

- Survivor Series. Infamous night, indeed. But other than the whole controversy this was a dreadful, worthless, show. Definitely one of the worst SS of all-time.

 

So right there, the big 5 only produced: one classic (Bret vs. Austin), one pretty good show (Summerslam), and outside of the classic, maybe two or three other matches that were worth anything. That's just not a very impressive record as far as I'm concerned.

 

- As for the In Your Houses, I love Candaian Stampede to death. One of my favorite PPVs. I'd never knock this show. Revenge of the Taker was actually a really solid card too. I like the Taker/Mankind and Bret/Austin matches. And the opener is good too. So that's a definite thumbs up. Final Four I think is overrated. It was just a mess. Bad concept, bad idea, and terrible direction- they had no idea where they were going with the belt or for WM. It's always amazed me that people love this concept/match/PPV because it just seems like the type of thing that would have people crapping on it if it A) didn't happen in 1997 and B) didn't involve Bret and Austin. The DX PPV was just bad and utterly pointless. I don't expect even the staunchest '97 supporter to defend that one. Cold Day In Hell wasn't all that great. And Ground Zero- bleh. That brings us to Badd Blood, which had a really good main event and not much else. I also think HIAC is overrated. Again, not that it isn't a great match, but the fact that it made it into the finals of the ongoing tournament here is a bit much. But just going off what had already happened at the time- compare these IYHs to the ones from '96. Not that I like '96 or anything, but the fact is those IYHs produced some killer matches. Rarely was there a show that was just completely worthless- even with a bad card, there was usually a Shawn vs. Mankind type match to save the show. '97 threw out 3 or 4 IYHs that had nothing to them whatsoever.

 

So I guess what I've been saying all this time when I find '97 to be overrated is that while I can understand considering Raw to be awesome during that time, most of the PPVs certainly were not. You've got Canadian Stampede, Revenge of the Taker, one match at Bad Blood, one match at Wrestlemania, and a few matches at Summerslam. Out of 12 shows. And the majority of everything else on PPV sucked. Just my opinion, as unpopular as it may be. Surely there's someone that can see where I'm coming from.

You sure do back your shit up... ..What about WCW though..

[CanadianChris 0]

humanoid, you are easily the best wrestling poster on this entire board. That just needed to be said. I always enjoy reading your posts.

 

I actually agree with most of what you said. I didn't get PPV until 2000, so I have no memories of the PPVs as a whole; just specific matches that I've gone out of my way to find. The only PPV from 1997 that I've seen in its entirety is Canadian Stampede. Aside from that, I've only seen the Final Four match, Bret/Austin and Sid/UT from Mania, Austin/UT from Cold Day In Hell, HBK/Austin from KOTR, Bret/UT from Summerslam, the two HBK/UT matches, and, of course, the Montreal Incident. So, my view of what 1997 was is going to be coloured by the fact that I saw pretty much just the good stuff from that year, without having to wade through much of the crap. RAW, for the most part, was consistently good because they kept the focus on the top programs and the top guys. There were some bad moments -- the whole Gang Wars storyline, for instance -- but there was so much good stuff going on on TV that it's hard for me not to remember the year as anything but one of the best years the WWF has ever had (up until Survivor Series, at least). But I can certainly see where you're coming from -- the strength in the WWF was certainly at the top of the card, and there was hardly anything underneath worth watching, which would become painfully evident on PPV when you could only put the top guys in a couple of matches, and the underneath guys HAD to show you something (which they usually didn't, apart from the occasional HHH/Mankind match).

 

I think creative can be excused for lacking direction from the Royal Rumble onward. I think it's pretty safe to say that the booking plans for those two months revolved around the WWF champion being Shawn Michaels, and when he left Vince high and dry, they had to scramble to figure out how they wanted to proceed from that point. I think they did a pretty reasonable job under the circumstances. It also left them short one main eventer for WrestleMania, which probably affected how the show was laid out, especially considering how thin the WWF roster was at that point. I will say, though, that it doesn't excuse them from stuff like sending the Sultan out to challenge Rocky for the IC belt on the biggest show of the year.

[Black Lushus 0]

I think the biggest thing about WWE 1997 was that it was a turning point in what we all were used to with the WWE up until that point. The opening stages of the Attitude era BEFORE it got too outta hand thanks to Russo. The WWE was going places we would have never imagined and the fans ate it up. Bret Hart may have been one of the greatest heelsof all time that year, which really helps. Austin was coming up fast. HBK was hanging around and then reverted to the HBK we all loved by the midway point in the year. UT was UT. Foley was doing his thing. The Rock came about halfway through. Tons of great matches that year. I dunno...it's hard to explain.

[Naked Snake 0]

1997 had that shock factor that you don't have now.

 

1997 had the real life war between WCW and WWF, where you just felt edgy and the stories had some amazing creativity.

 

Not all the angles hit in 1997, but when they did, look out...

[razazteca 0]

Was 1997 the year WCW gave Raven the push to the upper midcard where he did something more than lead a group of nobodies when I mean nobodies I am refering to Reese, Sickboy, Van Hammer? Was this the beginning of the James Vanderburg & Mortis partnership. Was this the year Booker T won the WCW TV title making him a legit singles star and feuded with Saturn and Rick Martel? All yeah DDP "inventing" 34743297834279 versions of the Diamond Cutter was great especially his feud with Raven and the Flock.

 

In closing Raven Rules, the ECW attitude moving to Atlanta, and of course Rey Mysterio, Juvi, Guerreros and of the AAA/Tijuana luchadors made damn good television.

[reign 0]

1997 was just a year where the old ways of doing things were thrown way out and American fans finally got amazing wrestling plus compelling storylines...yes there was a lot of crap mixed in there too but overall with things like the real wrestlers in WCW from ECW, Mexico and Japan the domination of the NWO and the reality of WWE with Hart Foundation, DX and Austin was just something to really get into..I know I never missed a Monday really from sometime in 1996 on...

[strummer 0]

Yes, 1997 was great because the WWF finally changed how they presented wrestling. They let the fans choose who they wanted to see pushed, they had more violence, more hatred and emotion, passion, and adult themed storylines. As far as workrate, yes the undercard mostly had terrible heatless wrestling but the top programs were on fire and resulted in the kick off of the boom period. I much preferred Raw to Nitro at this point even though WCW was still putting on better wrestling throughout the card.

 

I can see that if you really only care about workrate why you wouldn't like this period but with angles and heat it's off the charts.

[Prime Time Andrew Doyle 0]

It is looked upon so great because it was the dawn of a new era.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

I think 1997 was the year WWF finally stopped introducing wrestlers with stupid gimmicks (for the most part). One thing that made me angry as a fan in 1996 was that after Razor Ramon, Diesel, and 1-2-3 Kid all left, WWF introduced a slew of new wrestlers like: Who, TL Hopper, Freddie Joe Floyd, and The Goon. All terrible gimmicks that made WWF looked like kiddie stuff compared to WCW.

[cabbageboy 0]

Wanna hear something funny? I don't even remember anything in WCW from roughly SuperBrawl 97 until the build for Starrcade. There really wasn't anything happening in WCW that I recall.

 

The WWF didn't draw any money in 1997 to me because despite what Russo and Co. tell you, shades of gray does not draw money. On some level fans need to have a basic understanding of who is supposed to be good and bad, even if the guys are flawed individuals. Austin and Bret was a compelling feud, but the problem is there was no one to cheer for. You have Austin, a raving psycho who breaks into his best friend's house to kill him. Then you have Bret turning his back on his USA fans. Not everyone can be a tweener. I think Russo is having this same problem in TNA right now.

 

Quality wise 1997 may well have been a stronger year than 1998. But the thing is, by 1998 the WWF had figured out that Austin needed to unequivocably have people behind him while Vince was the vile heel.

[Just John 0]

But I'm posting this because I think I finally found out one of the major things that keeps me from singing endless praises of '97 like everyone else does.

 

The PPVs.

 

I'll agree that WWF ppv's that year weren't too good on the whole, despite producing really good matches occasionally. But, man, WCW's ppv's were choice almost all year. Uncensored, Slamboree, BATB, Fall Brawl, and Halloween Havoc were all exceptional shows.

[razazteca 0]

As Tony Schiavonie would say WCW had the GREATEST MIDCARD IN THE HISTORY OF PRO WRESTLING! From say 96-98 it was nonstop must see television this is where WCW and WWF absorbed ECW attitude taking it to the prime time. WCW "stole" or "brought" or "actually paid" the workers bringing in the holy trinity of luchadors of Rey Mysterio, Juventud, Psicosis who revolutionized the high flying style that everybody under 200 pounds emulated today. WCW also got the services of Raven who took what was successful in ECW with the cult concept and the hardcore style which he called "Raven Rulz" which was revolutionary at the time since it was basically street fights with weapons that were normally saved for PPVs was becoming a regular thing on tv. Again prime time television was having PPV caliber matches was a big deal gone were the days of every match being a squash featuring a bodybuilder character vs the local gym teacher. The whole angle where Raven was a cult leader was watchable before stables were lead by rich aristocrats or lead by men wearing colorful pimp suits or a some trophy wife Raven's Flock was believable. Once they got past the stupid shit like giving Billy Kidman the pigpen Peanuts character which was just fucking stupid and insulting the angle with Raven as the cult leader began to become interesting with the series of matches against DDP and Chris Kanyon. Other wrestlers that stick out from this period were Booker T who was with the company forever as the perennial tag champion as half of Harlem Heat was given the WCW TV. Booker T's offense which was primary kicks as the cliche states was a breathe of fresh air it didn't become a joke until Mark Madden yelled "SPINNAROONIE!" for the 1st time. Booker Ts primary rival at the time was Scott Steiner who himself went from tag team star to solo superstar when he became Big Papa Pump, the craziest roid raging freak with a bad attitude out there! The tag team scene had Public Enemy vs Nasty Boys in several no dq street fights that involved everything from concession stand tables to street signs to no typical weapons like chairs.

 

Then the company went to shit around 1999 when the midcard started to be a bigger joke than the main event with stupid gimmick matches on Thunder like Shit-on-a-Pole, both Ferrera and Russo made themselfs champions, stupid gimmicks like KISS Demon, 70's fat lover guy, and again Russo winning cage matches on Nitro.

[humanoid92 0]

humanoid, you are easily the best wrestling poster on this entire board. That just needed to be said. I always enjoy reading your posts.

 

I actually agree with most of what you said. I didn't get PPV until 2000, so I have no memories of the PPVs as a whole; just specific matches that I've gone out of my way to find. The only PPV from 1997 that I've seen in its entirety is Canadian Stampede. Aside from that, I've only seen the Final Four match, Bret/Austin and Sid/UT from Mania, Austin/UT from Cold Day In Hell, HBK/Austin from KOTR, Bret/UT from Summerslam, the two HBK/UT matches, and, of course, the Montreal Incident. So, my view of what 1997 was is going to be coloured by the fact that I saw pretty much just the good stuff from that year, without having to wade through much of the crap. RAW, for the most part, was consistently good because they kept the focus on the top programs and the top guys. There were some bad moments -- the whole Gang Wars storyline, for instance -- but there was so much good stuff going on on TV that it's hard for me not to remember the year as anything but one of the best years the WWF has ever had (up until Survivor Series, at least). But I can certainly see where you're coming from -- the strength in the WWF was certainly at the top of the card, and there was hardly anything underneath worth watching, which would become painfully evident on PPV when you could only put the top guys in a couple of matches, and the underneath guys HAD to show you something (which they usually didn't, apart from the occasional HHH/Mankind match).

 

I think creative can be excused for lacking direction from the Royal Rumble onward. I think it's pretty safe to say that the booking plans for those two months revolved around the WWF champion being Shawn Michaels, and when he left Vince high and dry, they had to scramble to figure out how they wanted to proceed from that point. I think they did a pretty reasonable job under the circumstances. It also left them short one main eventer for WrestleMania, which probably affected how the show was laid out, especially considering how thin the WWF roster was at that point. I will say, though, that it doesn't excuse them from stuff like sending the Sultan out to challenge Rocky for the IC belt on the biggest show of the year.

 

Thanks Chris. Sounds like we agree on most of the issues. I guess all along we had similar viewpoints, but I never really stated that I didn't like the weak midcard and the PPV undercards until now. It's safe to say that most of the things that people do remember '97 for is great stuff. And you're right about Shawn screwing things up royally with his usual crap.

 

And I agree with what everyone else says about the aura and feelings surrounding wrestling in '97. It was just a different time that can't be replicated. And Lushus makes a great point that it felt kind of like the Attitude era before Russo went out of control. I'll just never personally have the same attachment to '97 that I will to the period when I first got hooked on wrestling, as I describe in the "Best Time Period" thread.

 

And to answer Ron, I never really seriously got into WCW at any point in time. Just never cared that much about them.

[JN News 0]

The best part of 1997 was the return of The Hart Foundation. Hands down. When Bret Hart turned heel, and reunited with Owen, Bulldog, & Anvil, and when they even had Brian Pillman tagging along for the ride, I was so hooked on the WWF. It was just too fucking bad that everything had to end so soon.