Shooting at Virginia Tech Campus

[Black Lushus 0]

The more guns that are about, the more often these situations are going to come up. That's why we have a 10:1 ratio of these things over here compared to Europe.

 

That being said, the guns are here. If the people in the classroom each had had a pistol of their own, 33 people probably would not have died.

 

I am divided on the issue........

 

YOU advocate owning weapons???

 

Rip: I've had a gun pulled on me before, even if the guy was stuck in a moment where he can't fire off a round, I don't know if I'd have the moxy to disarm him...I dunno, maybe...I just know that in that situation, I was scared shitless and all I was thinking was please lord don't let him kill me.

[theintensifier 0]

As I pointed out at the Pit:

 

Sure, many more people could have been saved today, you're right. However, given the circumstances, and the lack of knowledge provided to the Police, someone attempting to do a heroic act could have been deemed a threat and excommunicated by the Police. There's a reason we have Police, to protect the rest of us. No one else has any business doing that (outside of Police/Military/FBI - of course) and it would just lead to more pointless deaths.

 

Have you ever shot a firearm, or have a lot of experience handling a fire arm in a stressful situation? Not many normal civilians do, so again, bad idea. A untrained person with unsteady and shaky arms who is scared and stressed pointing a firearm at someone? Yeah, good choice there!

 

Yesterday would have ended differently if the students were allowed to carry concealed firearms. But, I truely believe the bad would outweigh the good in the end.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

Yeah, exactly. Has any study ever been conducted to determine if an armed population actually equals a safer one?

[Black Lushus 0]

I don't know if any real good could ever come from a bunch of college kids being allowed to pack heat on campus...okay, it could have prevented yesterday...and that event happens how many times?

 

now random gun murders...how many times do THOSE happen?

 

hell, what about ACCIDENTAL gun deaths?

[Ripper 0]

Do people even pay attention to the fact that they just stab the shit out of each other in the utopian European countries. Getting stabbed to death and shot to death are the same results.

 

At the same time, Students having guns wouldn't help. A student having a gun is what caused the entire goddamned problem in the first place. Being able to lock a door would have helped. Maybe not having class with a killer on the loose would have helped too.

 

Not much can stop a person from killing alot of people if they want to sadly. That is just the way it is. It isn't expected that someone will just come in and start trying to kill everyone. But the more students that have guns is the more likely that it will happen. Thats one more person that could see killing everyone as what needs to happen because they are having a bad day. I just don't see how that would be the answer.

[Black Lushus 0]

not to dog on Marcus Vick, but for example, would you want HIM legally carrying a gun? I'm sure he owns one, but I wouldn't want to be around that particular guy if he's free to just carry it around as he pleases....I'm using him obviously because of the VT connection, in this case.

[Ripper 0]

The more guns that are about, the more often these situations are going to come up. That's why we have a 10:1 ratio of these things over here compared to Europe.

 

That being said, the guns are here. If the people in the classroom each had had a pistol of their own, 33 people probably would not have died.

 

I am divided on the issue........

 

YOU advocate owning weapons???

 

Rip: I've had a gun pulled on me before, even if the guy was stuck in a moment where he can't fire off a round, I don't know if I'd have the moxy to disarm him...I dunno, maybe...I just know that in that situation, I was scared shitless and all I was thinking was please lord don't let him kill me.

 

I also have had a gun pulled on me and I didn't go all heroic because I hadn't just watched him kill 10-15 people. There is a reasonable assumption that you will survive there. Watching this psycho, I doubt there was an assumption that he wasn't going to shoot them. That is the difference in the situations.

[theintensifier 0]

I think its obvious that people would seek cover before thinking of being a hero. Even combat hardened Marines seek cover when rounds start flying, just common sense.

 

Here's what I'd do (I like to think I'd do this):

 

1. Seek cover, and hide as well as possible.

2. Attempt to leave the area under siege if possible, try to take as many people with me as possible.

3. Try to secure my location, and ensure the safety of the others in my class.

4. Play "dead" if necessary, pull a Platoon and cover my body with someone elses.

5. Organize an "attack" plan, use bait and switch tactics.

[Black Lushus 0]

yeah, but the shock of seeing 10-15 of your fellow students get mowed down may be enough to practically petrify you and prevent you from getting up enough adrenaline to take the guy out. These are students, not SWAT members.

[Ripper 0]

yeah, but the shock of seeing 10-15 of your fellow students get mowed down may be enough to practically petrify you and prevent you from getting up enough adrenaline to take the guy out. These are students, not SWAT members.

 

 

Yeah...I have seen people die, and let me stand here wasn't the first thing that went through my mind or anyone around me for that matter. petrification might happen in the first second, but trust me, its get the fuck out of here after that.

[theintensifier 0]

It would definitely be a tense and scary moment, but no one wants to be a victim, and if I thought I had a better chance of survival defending myself, by all means would I. Wouldn't you?

[Black Lushus 0]

yeah, but the shock of seeing 10-15 of your fellow students get mowed down may be enough to practically petrify you and prevent you from getting up enough adrenaline to take the guy out. These are students, not SWAT members.

 

 

Yeah...I have seen people die, and let me stand here wasn't the first thing that went through my mind or anyone around me for that matter. petrification might happen in the first second, but trust me, its get the fuck out of here after that.

 

okay, I can buy the "get the fuck outta here" mindset, but bumrushing the guy just seems too much...but again, I've never been in THIS situation, so who's to say what exactly I would do?

[Black Lushus 0]

It would definitely be a tense and scary moment, but no one wants to be a victim, and if I thought I had a better chance of survival defending myself, by all means would I. Wouldn't you?

 

I'm not bashing you tense, I'm just saying, it's a lot easier to say that on a messageboard than it is to do it in a classroom while some mad asian is on the loose with a gun.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

My understanding is that he didn't even announce himself or anything. He just walked in and started shooting. Sounds like there was basically zero time for anyone to react.

[snuffbox 0]

Ripper would have made him swallow that gun. I wish Ripper was in that classroom.

[The Man in Blak 0]

Speculating what one could have done in this situation is kind of useless but, regardless, I don't think there's much you can do if you're unarmed in that situation, short of desperately trying to rationalize with the guy and bring him back to reality. Charging at the madman (armed or unarmed) for tackling/disarming makes you an unbelievably easy target for a small firearm, and it's highly unlikely that said madman is going to allow time for anybody to coordinate any kind of cooperative maneuver. I think the first four steps of theintensifier's plan for escape is about as good as you get, unfortunately.

 

In terms of campus security, it's going to be difficult to implement a security strategy that specifically deals with threats from the students themselves. Establishing keycard access to entry points in each building is useless, since the student would presumably have the access required to bypass, and placing metal detectors and/or guards at each door isn't really a feasible option, especially for a public university like VT. Even focusing on improving an "escape strategy" may not apply in this situation, as any additional venues you create for evacuation could potentially double as an entry point for an intruder.

 

The more likely alternative is to focus more on speeding up reaction time from the authorities but, even then, there's only so much that you can do. You can increase campus police presence to improve coverage and give those officers more options as it regards to containment - add electronic locks to classroom doors (with multiple secured access points for remote lock control), install "panic buttons" in each classroom to allow faculty/staff the option for immediate notification of a dangerous situation, etc.

 

Ultimately, it's just a difficult situation for the university. Allowing students to carry firearms could potentially invite more of this behavior, rather than deter it, but you can emphasize other means of self defense among the students. Depending on the legality of the area, pepper spray is a possibility; I personally carried a very small collapsible outdoor knife in my pocket throughout much of my time at college. Unless you intend to completely strip personal liberty from the student population, though, it's kind of hard to deter an attack of this magnitude and, for lack of a better word, randomness.

[Hawk 34 0]

I've noticed an increase in security on campus this morning. I really feel safer now knowing that rented cops are keeping a watchful eye of homicidal nutjobs.

[TheShooter 0]

Why the fuck was the campus not put on lockdown after the first event, especially since the killer was STILL ON THE LOOSE??? 30+ deaths could have been prevented.

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[TheShooter 0]

By the way I apologize for my unfortunate screen name this morning.

[World's Worst Man 0]

From what I've seen of the text messages that were sent to students, it seems like the university and police seriously bungled the whole thing up.

 

The first text - “A shooting incident occurred at West Amber Johnston earlier this morning. Police are on the scene and are investigating. “The university community is urged to be cautious and are asked to contact Virginia Tech Police if you observe anything suspicious or with information on the case. Contact Virginia Tech Police at 231-6411

 

“Stay attuned to the www.vt.edu. We will post as soon as we have more information.â€

 

So there's a shooting, the police are on the scene, yet the guy ends up shooting 30 more people? Why wouldn't they evacuate the facilities immediately, and what the fuck were the police doing while the guy went around shooting another bunch of people? Is the university really such a huge area that the guy was able to avoid the police for so long?

 

I also find it laughable that anyone would suggest arming more people in response to this. The simple logic behind such a plan should be enough. Maybe in this case, if everyone was packing, the guy would have been shitcanned before killing too many people. But then how many more shootings would there be if 95% of the population was carrying guns with them all the time? That just introduces crimes of passion and other stupid shit that regular, non-criminal people are prone to do.

[theintensifier 0]

Why the fuck was the campus not put on lockdown after the first event, especially since the killer was STILL ON THE LOOSE??? 30+ deaths could have been prevented.

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There was no way they could predict what was going to happen. Not defending them in the least, they definitely dropped the ball on this one.

 

Regarding my plan, the 5th step was in case there was a person like myself in the class, and if the classroom was like most universities (two doors in the back of the room).

 

Its sad though, colleges will not employee enough security to cover its entire campus. Money over the years has proven to be a more valuable asset than life itself.

[TheShooter 0]

I'm not saying the police predicted that this guy would go on a rampage like this, but if you have a person who is at large and CLEARLY armed and dangerous and willing to kill, why would you let students go to class as normal??? Ok, so they thought it was a domestic dispute, but that still doesn't change the fact that the killer is still out there.

[theintensifier 0]

I'm assuming the college's administration had tremendous faith in the Police on scene and trusted what the Police told them.

 

(As somone has already pointed out) I don't think it would have mattered if they had closed school for the day, the man responsible for the killings would have probably just returned on a later date in time and committed the same crime, or even, I pray to God not, incread the number of killed.

[TheShooter 0]

No, I don't think he would have returned at a later date. I think he would have been captured by then, or killed himself.

 

Whatever the case, fuck him. As Geraldo said last night, there is no place low enough in hell for him.

[Edwin MacPhisto 0]

Why the fuck was the campus not put on lockdown after the first event, especially since the killer was STILL ON THE LOOSE??? 30+ deaths could have been prevented.

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Maybe. I think it's really short-sighted to blame anyone but the murderer at this stage of things. Let the reports be filed, let the investigations continue, let all the information come in, and then determine blame and change policy if appropriate. The first responders thought the initial shooting was an isolated incident, and might have had good reason to believe as much and determine that this was the safest course of action. I mean, like MiB said, you never really expect an indiscriminate slaughter.

[World's Worst Man 0]

They had nothing to lose by being cautious. If the police fucked up, they bear some of the responsibility. Given the early information, it appears that they (or the university) did. And really, the gunman is dead, the people he killed are gone, so the only good that can really come out of this is if there are steps taken that could possibly prevent or at least lessen the scale of a future such event. A better handling of the situation would certainly apply.

[EricMM 0]

More security?

 

I dunno if you've been to some campuses, but they are like small cities, if not large cities.

 

You would need a Mah-hah-assive [/Cox] security force to somehow keep order in this type of setting.

 

I mean for christ's sake, almost everyone on campus has a backpack, you can keep 10 glocks and god knows how many bullets in there. Ultimately it depends on people NOT doing this...

 

What this might do is set up some sort of SMS messaging system to alert students with cellphones to emergencies on campus instead of or along side vague and ambiguous sirens and late emails.

[TheShooter 0]

Just to reiterate, I'm not saying the police should have foreseen the rampage. All I'm saying is, given that there had been a double murder and the killer was STILL AT LARGE, you think they'd have taken some more precautions other than sending out a lame email. Even if the dorm room slayings were an "isolated incident", the fact the the killer could still be hiding out anywhere on campus means it was no longer isolated.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

I don't think it matters or not whether the cops or campus security thought they had the thread neutralized after the initial shooting at 7:15, there is really no excuse for people sitting in their classrooms and not finding out about it for another two hours. Like Edwin said, the only certain blame right now is on the shooter himself but I've got the feeling that when the dust settles there is going to be a strong case made for the local police force and campus security fucking up big time. They've been through a lot, yes and they're about to go through worse but if this tragedy is going to help future situations learn then blame unfortunately must be allocated somewhere.

[snuffbox 0]

The Fred Phelps group will be protesting at the funerals.

 

http://www.godhatesamerica.com/