Cleveland Cavaliers vs San Antonio Spurs

[Ripper 0]

People at like that Celtics team didn't get bullied alot. Guards were tough on them. people love that team so much because of that NASTY front line they had with Bird, Parish, Mchale, the remains of Bill Walton, and Scot Wedman. They didn't have anybody laying the hammer down inside, so if a guy like Lebron could muscle his way inside, he would have had his way. Jordon finessed his way to jumpers in that game. Lebron is built the Celtics big men with guard abilities.

 

Once again though, the celtics would have won the game by 40. But I have no doubt that Lebron could go apeshit on most of those teams.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

People at like that Celtics team didn't get bullied alot. Guards were tough on them. people love that team so much because of that NASTY front line they had with Bird, Parish, Mchale, the remains of Bill Walton, and Scot Wedman. They didn't have anybody laying the hammer down inside, so if a guy like Lebron could muscle his way inside, he would have had his way. Jordon finessed his way to jumpers in that game. Lebron is built the Celtics big men with guard abilities.

 

Once again though, the celtics would have won the game by 40. But I have no doubt that Lebron could go apeshit on most of those teams.

 

McHale and Perish were decent shot blockers and Bird could be a sneaky one, but yeah; nobody was laying the hammer down. Still, they weren't exactly scared of getting physical on the inside and they would have alot of bodies to throw at Lebron if he just tried to bull his way in. It would take it's toll. Jordan gave them serious problems in that series because he was by far the fastest man on the court, add into his relative freshness after missing most of the regular season, and he was just blowing by people and hitting that super high pull up like it wasn't shit. Still, it took him an overtime or so to amount those 60+ points and if that's all an offensive machine like Jordan could muster than I can't see Lebron getting more. Lebron would probably due as well as Dominque did but even he had to do most of his damage with jump shooting as I recall. And unlike Jordan, Bird would probably mindfuck the sometimes shaky confidence of Lebron to death. I don't doubt Lebron could go apeshit on most anybody when he's in his groove but I don't see him getting 80 or even 60 on that Celtic team, nor do I see him having his way on the inside.

[cabbageboy 0]

Well, the Cavs aren't the worst team ever to make the Finals. Not even close actually. That honor will always go to the 1981 Houston Rockets, who actually made the Finals with a 40-42 record. That would be like the Orlando Magic somehow making the Finals today.

 

I just listened to one of the all time most idiotic debates on First Take, with Skip Bayless and these clowns the Two Live Stews. It was the debate of LeBron vs. Jordan after each guy's 4th year in the league. The evidence of LeBron's supposed superiority over Jordan is that he has taken the Cavs to the Finals in his 4th year, and they kept screaming "DID JORDAN GO TO THE FINALS IN HIS 4TH YEAR???" Bayless schooled them by rightly pointing out that the East was actually, you know, good back in the 1980s and the Bulls weren't yet near the level of the Celtics or Pistons.

[Ripper 0]

I think that the Wilkins thing was a great one to bring up. Thats the closest you could get to the body type of Lebron, although Lebron was maybe a little taller and longer. But at the same time Jordan, at his fastest, wasn't THAT much faster than Bron. And he is a better ball handler than both of them. I don't think that he would have scored 60 LIKE Jordan, as Mike was just weaving in between defenders before they could even get down in a defensive stance to think about stopping him, while Lebron is more of a battering ram when he goes to the rim, but i think lebrons style, much like Wilkins, would have had him eating that team up. And his ballhandling skills would have given him quite a few more points than Nique.

 

As for the shotblockers, I think that this is a area where the players today would excel against the older players. The older ones didn't have to deal with the freaks of nature shotblocking wise like these guys have to. When it comes to things like shotblocking, the new, overly athletic players would trump the older ones. When it comes to things like...well...almost everything else, the older would trump the younger. My point is that defense today is MUCH better than defense then(except for maybe the badboys who just scared people into not coming into the lane and playing damn good one on one ball) and the slowed down offenses of today make the big scoring games even more impressive.

 

So I think that 40 points today is 60 in the 80's. And Kobes 81 was something like 110 in the 80's.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

"I think that the Wilkins thing was a great one to bring up. Thats the closest you could get to the body type of Lebron, although Lebron was maybe a little taller and longer. But at the same time Jordan, at his fastest, wasn't THAT much faster than Bron. And he is a better ball handler than both of them. "

 

I'm not so sure of that, and this is from somebody who loathes Jordan. He is a much better ball handler than Wilkins, but I don't think he is nearly as explosive a scorer or even as sharp as a jump shooter.

 

"As for the shotblockers, I think that this is a area where the players today would excel against the older players. The older ones didn't have to deal with the freaks of nature shotblocking wise like these guys have to."

 

McHale is kind of a prototype for the long, lean shot blockers of today and again like the rest of the Celtics, he was physical as hell in the paint. Perish was a big, strong defender as well. I don't think they'd be knocking and throwing Lebron in the stands as easily as they did Jabbar and company but I don't they would be the push overs your making them out to be for Lebron in the inside. Dennis Johnson was also about as solid on the tall and strong Magic as you could get, he just didn't have an answer for Jordan's quick soaring jumper though.

 

"So I think that 40 points today is 60 in the 80's. And Kobes 81 was something like 110 in the 80's."

 

Hard to gauge really. The games where you see scores like that today are usually faster than the average game.

[Ripper 0]

Not faster than the average game in the 80's. They used to get a good 10-15 more fga up than they do today. In the 70's and 60s, they used to chuck that fucker up like 20-25 more times a game (which is why you see so many inflated rebound and assist numbers honestly)

 

Thats why in the 80s you would see games where a guy would have 50 and still have 4 team mates in double figures. One would be in the 20's.

 

I think you would be hard pressed to say that the 86' Celtics were a better defensive team than the 07 pistons honestly. Dennis Johnson was a monster perimeter defender, but I don't think he could have slowed down Lebron. We know Danny Ainge wasn't going to. And on the inside, i dare say that the combination of Prince, Wallace, Mcdyess is just as tough to score on in the interior as the Bird, Mchale, Parish trio. If not morseo(Prince has the type of length that bird didn't have and the athletisim, and Rasheed has the wingspan of a guy 7'3...Mchale was long, but he wasn't that fucking long)

 

Like you said, we won't ever know. I think its fun to wonder though. I do think the "its not like he scored 63 against the '86 Celtics" crowd is downplaying how amazing that game was for Lebron and I say it is on par with the Jordan Celts game. Except Lebron won because the Pistons can't score like the 86 Celtics.

 

Plus I got to reference Scot Wedman, and I have a feeling that I am the only one that actually remembers him. So I am happy.

[JohnnyBlaze 0]

My forays into older games are done mostly through ESPN classic. But for my money the only team that could keep up with the teams in 70's and 80's as far as speed is concerned is the Suns. They would be the only team that could manage that kind of speed consistently.

 

The current incarnation of Warriors would be able to keep up on one of their better days.

[MFer 0]

Assuming that the Spurs take the title, where does that put them historically? Four titles in nine years in this era would be considered a dynasty but I think the fact that they didn't win in back-to-back fashion at any point in that time frame takes some shine of that accomplishment. Really, the dynasty is mostly about Duncan, Pop, and the front office since they've been there for all the championships. Probably the most understated run in NBA history.

 

This post also gives me an excuse to post these.

 

Spurs' theme song

 

more madness

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

They will go down as the definitive team of the 00s, especially since the three-peat Lakers flamed out so quickly. As I've pointed out before, they are 0.4 seconds and a flukey Manu foul away from winning 5 consecutive championships. That's just remarkable in the salary cap era. It's really a testament to the front office and and the amazingness that is Tim Duncan.

[Ripper 0]

If they win this championship or not, there is no reason to believe that this will be there last one. They have all their major pieces locked up, and the other pieces are pretty much interchangeable.

[LivingLegendGaryColeman 0]

I just find it funny so many people still underestimated the Spurs going into this year's playoffs because they were the 3 seed. As a Suns fan, they were the one team I didn't want to face, out of all the teams in the league, and we saw how that went.

 

Personally, although I've never had anything against the Spurs in the past, I am going to be rooting for Cleveland. I don't think they will win, but I want them to. I forgot that Cleveland won both games against the Spurs this year too.

 

Nov 3 in San Antonio

 

Jan 2 in Cleveland

 

Seems like everyone important played in both games, but I don't feel there has been a team in this era can control a series like the Spurs.

[cabbageboy 0]

I think next year the Suns are going to win it all though. They have flat out run out of excuses. In 05 it was "Oh, this is our first year with Nash and Co., but we'll be back." Last year it's "Stoudamire was hurt, we did the best we could." This year it's "The Spurs gooned us and the office screwed us with suspensions."

 

As far as the Spurs go, I don't place them all THAT highly even if they win. The 99 title was a lockout year, so that one doesn't even hardly count in my book. As in it technically counts but not the same as an 82 game season title. The 2003 team was fairly good but if I recall Shaq was hurt on and off that year so the Lakers were quite down that year. And honestly, is beating a joke of a Finals team like the Nets (who were just 49-33 and not really a shocking finalist) really impressive? Not to mention the 05 series with the Pistons being an aesthetic nightmare that I'm glad we got to avoid this year. In other words, beating a crappy 8 seed Knicks, the New Jersey Nets, and having a dreary 7 gamer with the Pistons didn't really amaze anyone. Nor will beating a 1 man 50-32 Cavs team that is lucky to be there.

 

I don't really blame the Spurs for the East sucking and offering little opposition, but at the end of the day they will be remembered as the team that semi dominated the post Jordan declining NBA years. Oh, and one thing that also hurts them is that for the most part the Lakers beat the piss out of them in 2000-02. At the end of the day the Spurs will be like the Redskins from 1982-91, a team that won some titles during decade but not a flat out dynasty per se.

[Brett Favre 0]

The Knicks weren't a crappy 8 seed. If Ewing and LJ were healthy, it would've been a good series. Any team that can send out Camby, Ewing, LJ, KT, Houston, Spree, Childs, and Ward isn't crappy.

[Edwin MacPhisto 0]

At the end of the day the Spurs will be like the Redskins from 1982-91, a team that won some titles during decade but not a flat out dynasty per se.

I think otherwise simply because of the fact that the NBA championship has only gone to 6 teams in the last 20 years (Lakers, Bulls, Rockets, Pistons, Spurs, and the Heat last year). Only 6 teams! If the Spurs win this, that's 21 seasons with just 6 teams winning them all. The NFL has had a dozen different championship franchises in that stretch, and baseball 13. I'd call 4 championships in 9 seasons with a handful of common elements closer to a dynasty just because so few teams have gone all the way in the league. It's probably more about further establishing the franchise as an incredibly well-run machine.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

"Not faster than the average game in the 80's. They used to get a good 10-15 more fga up than they do today. In the 70's and 60s, they used to chuck that fucker up like 20-25 more times a game (which is why you see so many inflated rebound and assist numbers honestly)"

 

Overall maybe, but when Kobe went nuts like that I doubt he could possibly get off any more shots and touches in a single game; he was firing like it was a 70s game. I do believe he would probably have big numbers more often and we might be looking at Jordan's 36 per game numbers give or take but than again, Kobe was never as consistent a big scorer as Jordan was and has far more off games. But I don't think he could top Wilt's numbers in any era.

 

"I think you would be hard pressed to say that the 86' Celtics were a better defensive team than the 07 pistons honestly."

 

Hard to say since we've never saw the Pistons prove themselves against offenses that were as incredible as Showtime or even true monsters like the Twin Towers. I think Showtime especailly would score at will. Your just not going to shutdown offenses that efficient, they will get their points no matter what. The Celtics and the Pistons did about as good job as your going to do.

 

"And on the inside, i dare say that the combination of Prince, Wallace, Mcdyess is just as tough to score on in the interior as the Bird, Mchale, Parish trio. If not morseo(Prince has the type of length that bird didn't have and the athletisim, and Rasheed has the wingspan of a guy 7'3...Mchale was long, but he wasn't that fucking long)"

 

They are more physically imposing outside of Parish, but I don't think their nearly as smart or consistently hard working as the Celtic interior. This is also a team that would kill people before giving up a rebound, I can't see them just giving up and letting a single guy run off 25 straight final points; they didn't even let Jordan do that in THE game. Plus One also has to consider that they did in fact hold one of the all time greatest offensive forces at his most determined and single minded to just 63 points in overtime during the faster paced games of yesterday. It's not much but it could have been far worst and they did hold him to 19 in the next game and 20 earlier in the season as I recall.

 

Bird is such a mind fucker that I could honestly see him schooling the hell out of the seemingly fragile James, though he does seem to be getting more confidence now. Duncan and Nash may very well be the only NBA stars of late that strike me as being as head strong and clutch as the Magic, Bird, and Jordan types; though I'm not saying that will change with James. But yeah will never know, hopefull it would end up looking like Dominque/Bird shoot outs in a best case scenario.

 

" I do think the "its not like he scored 63 against the '86 Celtics" crowd is downplaying how amazing that game was for Lebron and I say it is on par with the Jordan Celts game. Except Lebron won because the Pistons can't score like the 86 Celtics. "

 

It's going to get downplayed because of the bigger picture the media is trying so desperately to paint. It was a great performance but it doesn't make him Jordan or Magic just yet (with the constant use of such analogies already wearing thin on most people's patience after duds like Carter and now maybe Wade), and because a good but disappointing Pistons team don't have the aurua of a legendary Bird Celtic team. That's just the way it is.

 

"Plus I got to reference Scot Wedman, and I have a feeling that I am the only one that actually remembers him. So I am happy."

 

The Perfect Game!!!

[MFer 0]

Interesting article

[godthedog 0]

I think next year the Suns are going to win it all though. They have flat out run out of excuses. In 05 it was "Oh, this is our first year with Nash and Co., but we'll be back." Last year it's "Stoudamire was hurt, we did the best we could." This year it's "The Spurs gooned us and the office screwed us with suspensions."

 

the suns won't win a championship without some changes in the coaching philosophy, their system is too fragile. all the weaknesses got exposed in game 5. d'antoni's rotations just wear out his players too much, especially nash.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

In my mind, the Suns are still behind the Mavs and Spurs in the west and Utah, Houston and Denver are creeping up on them. I love the Suns, but I think we've seen three years in a row that they aren't quite at that elite level.

[Ripper 0]

Thats still laughable. The problem is lack of bench depth development.

 

I think the suns would have done better in 05 with Joe johnson not injured, but I still don't think they would have took the spurs.

 

In 06, I no doubt think they would have taken the Mavs had Raja Bell been able to keep walk.

 

This year....don't get me started.

 

 

I just don't think any other team would have their system questioned if one of their top players went down in the playoffs.

 

I do think that if Mike D'antoni would get off that 7-8 man rotation for the entire season crap and extend it to a 9-10 man rotation, they would be better prepared for one of these incidents.

 

But with that said, I don't think Dallas would be any better prepared if one of their top players went down.

 

I personally put the Spurs/Suns about neck and neck in the west with dallas behind them. I don't see how anyone could look at the suns/spurs series this year and say that they didn't see two extremely evenly matched teams.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

The lack of bench development is their own fault. They could have had Luol Deng or Rajon Rondo developing nicely the past few years, but ditched those picks because they didn't want to pay the bill. Now they are in the position where they are going to have to trade Marion or even Stoudemire for 75 cents on the dollar because of the luxury tax.

 

They had injuries in 05 and 06 but we are talking about players who are only 4th or 5th best on their team. It's not like when Webber went down and Kings still pushed the Mavs to seven or when the Mavs gave the Spurs a hell of a fight when Nowitzki was hurt. Injuries happen and you can't blame the outcome of the series on them.

 

The Suns were clearly an inferior team to Dallas each of the past two seasons. I don't know why you refuse to acknowledge that. They've been one of the two or three best teams in the league several years running, but have come just short of the title. With Nash aging and impending departure of one of their key pieces, I don't understand how you think they are getting closer.

[Brett Favre 0]

Yet those teams that you mentioned still loss, so obviously you have to blame those outcomes on injury.

 

And I really thought that Phoenix would beat Dallas last year. With Amare, there's no doubt they would've beaten them. IIRC, the Suns lead going into the 4th in Game 6 and just fell apart because they only play like 6 guys a game. It's time to add depth to the team.

[Ripper 0]

The lack of bench development is their own fault. They could have had Luol Deng or Rajon Rondo developing nicely the past few years, but ditched those picks because they didn't want to pay the bill. Now they are in the position where they are going to have to trade Marion or even Stoudemire for 75 cents on the dollar because of the luxury tax.

 

They had injuries in 05 and 06 but we are talking about players who are only 4th or 5th best on their team. It's not like when Webber went down and Kings still pushed the Mavs to seven or when the Mavs gave the Spurs a hell of a fight when Nowitzki was hurt. Injuries happen and you can't blame the outcome of the series on them.

 

The Suns were clearly an inferior team to Dallas each of the past two seasons. I don't know why you refuse to acknowledge that. They've been one of the two or three best teams in the league several years running, but have come just short of the title. With Nash aging and impending departure of one of their key pieces, I don't understand how you think they are getting closer.

 

 

Um...how is Dallas been clearly better than Phoenix the last two years.

 

And if you really want to get into it. In the last three years featured Dallas losing the second round (to Phoenix by the way), losing in the finals and losing in the first round. Phoenix have lost in the west finals twice and once in the semis. Dallas has won 4 play offs series to Phoenix's 5 in the last 3 years.

 

And Joe Johnson was the teams third leading scorer, their primary defender, back up point guard and small forward in 05. He also happens to be a Allstar right now.

 

Raja Bell was clearly the second best player for the Suns in last years playoffs, also their primary defender. Him going down moved Barbosa into the starting lineup and their bench was nonexistant.

 

I don't see how you say they are losing the 4-5 best player. An accurate comparison would be if San Antonio lost Manu or Dallas lost Josh Howard.

 

Yes injuries happen, but at the same time, you have to be some kinda of stupid to say team x is clearly a better team because they won against a team missing its 2nd or 3rd best player.

 

Yes, Dallas is better than the Suns if they are missing Raja Bell, Amares Stoudimire and Kurt Thomas.

 

But The suns are better than the mavs if they are missing Dirk, Jason Terry and Josh Howard....so the fuck what.

 

I am taking the "Suns will never win a championship" and "they were exposed in game 5". Yes, the Spurs did a good job of mounting a comeback against the team playing without its leading scorer and its back up playmaker. How that is a validating moment that the Spurs were better or that the Suns won't win a championship, I don't know. But remove Duncan from the Spurs and how far will they go. And if Duncan were to go down and the spurs lost, does that mean who ever beat them is clearly the better team than the Spurs?

 

Yes the Suns need to utilize their bench more, no doubt, but have no doubts that this team in its current incarnation could win the championship.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

This current team could win a championship, but they haven't and I don't know why they would be the favorites going into next season. You obviously disagree and that's fine.

[Ripper 0]

I don't think I actually picked a winner for the finals. Just that the Spurs should get fucked.

 

So here it is....my official pick...

 

Cavs in 7.

 

Thats right, going with the Cavs. I picked Suns/Cavs for the finals (although my gut told me Spurs/Pistons...my gut and my analysis both were 50/50, so in theory, I was perfect...yeah...that makes sense) so i am picking the team that actually made the finals.

[Guest]

The Suns problem is clearly coaching. They obviously have the most talent. They obviously have the perfect PG-PF combination. They have a great defender.

 

Now, how do you not win with these players. Gotta be coaching. They'll win a title in 09 once they show D'Antoni the door.

 

I think the Suns are on par with the Spurs and Mavericks, but they don't have that little boost that having a coach like Popovich gives you.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

That's crazy. That whole team is Nash and D'Antoni. Take away either of those pieces and that team regresses by ten games or more.

[Guest]

I strongly disagree.

 

That team is good enough to win 65 games a season no matter who's coaching. Their only problem (to me) is when they get in the playoffs and they play teams like the Spurs that constantly make adjustments on the offensive end in order to get things done. The Spurs make adjustments, but do the Suns. It always seems to be the same, go through the motions up and down play with no real changes made on the defensive end.

 

If Rick Adelman was their coach, they would have already won a title.

[Ripper 0]

Thats insane. Nash is good, but he wouldn't be near MVP caliber if it wasn't for the style the Suns play, and that style is all Mike's design.

 

The reason they lose in the playoffs is because Mike doesn't play his bench so when they are needed he doesn't trust them to step in. So when these unfortunate injuries/suspensions come around, they have to play with a 6 man rotation. That is what is killing them. But at the same time, he isn't the first coach to use such a short rotation and he won't be the last.

 

This season was the closest to the full team being there in playoffs to play. And in the games where the entire cast was there, they went 2-2 with the spurs. The other two wins by the spurs were the suspensions and Nash bleeding like a stuck pig out there.

 

To say the Suns haven't made adjustments in the playoffs is just ignoring the facts out there.

 

And lets not pretend like they lost to chopped liver 2 out of the last 3 years. They did lose to the Spurs for christ sake.

 

And this thread is supposed to be about the Cavs and the Spurs anyway.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

I think the Suns have it more together than the Mavs. Dallas won a shitload of games but they've struck me as a vunerable mess all season; weak in the post, no true play maker, it was only a matter of time. If anybody is going to make some adjustments in the off season it should be them; give up Terry or Harris for a real point guard I say.

 

And what killed the Suns(aside from the weirdness) was a fresh Ginobli leading offensive outbursts from the bench everytime the starters rested.

 

As for the topic at hand, Spurs 4-2. Though I'll be rooting for the Cavs in vain.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

I like how the Mavs are dead and buried because they screwed up one series against the Warriors. I know that the loss exposed them in some ways, but it doesn't take away the fact that they were arguably the best team in basketball the past two years.

 

Hollinger said in his chat yesterday that the 02 Kings and 07 Mavs were the best teams to not win a championship. That sounds about right. This team will be right back in it next year.