Chris Benoit Dead - Toxicology results released

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

A new documentary showing on CBC says Benoit's brain was so badly damaged from concussions it resembled that of an 85 year old man with dementia.

 

Yahoo News

WWE tried to debunk the study by taking the position that because Benoit didn't act like an 85-year-old with dementia, their findings were suspect. The study never said Benoit was acting like the aforementioned dementia patient, just that his brain had comparable damage. Still, it made for an easy out for apologists.

 

Also, being aware of your actions and having the mental capacity to make a sound judgment of those actions are two totally different things.

[Turbo Lion 0]

A factor also is that wrestling isn't so much a regulated "sport", so the requirements and responsibilities of the corporation/franchise might be totally different. WWE may have zero responsibility because of the nature of wrestling.

 

I mean, how many (old school) ECW wrestlers could make a case considering the crazy shit they went through? Wrestlers choose this life and they know the risk to their bodies.

[Scroby 0]

Pro Wrestlers are independant contractors. If a wrestler was to tell a promoter that he was ok and there is nothing wrong with him, there is really nothing a promoter can do to try and force that wrestler to go see a doctor. Except maybe not book that wrestler until he does go see a doctor...but of course that means if the promoter is suspect to a wrestler that might actually have a injury that the wrestler is trying to hide.

 

For example:

 

Promoter: Hey Wrestler A, that was a pretty nasty chair shot you took last night. How are you feeling?

 

Wrestler A: Oh I'm fine. No worries.

 

Promoter: Ok, I just wanted to check with you. Stay safe tonight.

 

 

[Bix 0]

Pro Wrestlers are independant contractors.

Not in WWE, where the contracts are pretty much illegal and they're actually employees.

 

If a wrestler was to tell a promoter that he was ok and there is nothing wrong with him, there is really nothing a promoter can do to try and force that wrestler to go see a doctor. Except maybe not book that wrestler until he does go see a doctor...but of course that means if the promoter is suspect to a wrestler that might actually have a injury that the wrestler is trying to hide.

 

For example:

 

Promoter: Hey Wrestler A, that was a pretty nasty chair shot you took last night. How are you feeling?

 

Wrestler A: Oh I'm fine. No worries.

 

Promoter: Ok, I just wanted to check with you. Stay safe tonight.

He was knocked unconscious by a member of management during the course of "regular" work and wasn't checked for a concussion.

 

Also, to expand on what HTQ said about the brain exam findings:

 

In November, the WON had a note from Dr. Julian Bailes, explaining how McMahon and Meltzer misunderstood the findings. The deterioration was similar to that of an 85 year-old man with Alzheimer's, but that Benoit didn't necessarily have Alzheimer's symptoms. He had damage that would make normal stress set off violent reactions.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Let's play a game to reduce the tension:

 

[Atticus Chaos 0]

WWE tried to debunk the study by taking the position that because Benoit didn't act like an 85-year-old with dementia, their findings were suspect. The study never said Benoit was acting like the aforementioned dementia patient, just that his brain had comparable damage. Still, it made for an easy out for apologists.

 

Also, being aware of your actions and having the mental capacity to make a sound judgment of those actions are two totally different things.

 

I do understand that he had a lot of problems and obviously there was some brain damage there. I'm also sure if you'd have said to him a few years ago what he would go on to do, he'd have been as horrified as anyone.

 

But a lot people seem to comfort themselves by saying 'he was out of his mind' and Jericho's even likes to think of his freind Benoit and the murderer Benoit as two different people. But, really, looking at his actions that weekend, he wasn't totally crazy and probably had some sort of hold on his sanity . His actions, lying to everyone and drugging Daniel to ensure he wouldn't suffer seem very rational to me. I remember Meltzer even saying his method of death (slow strangulation) made it seem like he was trying to punish himself.

 

And, then there's the fact, that he had problems even before he entered wrestling. On his dvd his dad said he would stay in his room all the time and not talk to anyone. That's weird enough as it is.

 

I simply can't think of him as innocent man totally blameless for his actions. Which seems to be what Michael Benoit would have us believe.

 

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

But a lot people seem to comfort themselves by saying 'he was out of his mind' and Jericho's even likes to think of his freind Benoit and the murderer Benoit as two different people. But, really, looking at his actions that weekend, he wasn't totally crazy and probably had some sort of hold on his sanity . His actions, lying to everyone and drugging Daniel to ensure he wouldn't suffer seem very rational to me. I remember Meltzer even saying his method of death (slow strangulation) made it seem like he was trying to punish himself.

 

Murder is rational? While the notion of wanting to spare his son suffering might seem rational, the judgment behind it clearly wasn't, because he then killed his son. What's rational about that?

 

And, then there's the fact, that he had problems even before he entered wrestling. On his dvd his dad said he would stay in his room all the time and not talk to anyone. That's weird enough as it is.

 

It's a problem/weird because he wasn't talkative or 'normal'?

 

I simply can't think of him as innocent man totally blameless for his actions. Which seems to be what Michael Benoit would have us believe.

 

I don't think Michael Benoit wants his soon to be seen as innocent and blameless. He just doesn't want his son pilloried as a purely evil man.

 

[Bix 0]

There's a difference between "blameless" and "wouldn't have killed his family and himself when he did for whatever reasons that he had if he wasn't suffering from dementia." He had it in him to kill people, the dementia made it come to the surface more easily.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

You know, that wrestling apologist bingo crap was cute the first time at PWO. It's infuriating though when you make reasoned points and someone groups them with 15 other legitimately idiotic things they've heard. I could develop the opposite bingo card with phrases like, "how many more seven year olds have to die," but that is a pretty childish way to form an argument.

[Bix 0]

"reasoned points" lol

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Ok. Point out something I've said unreasonable.

[Turbo Lion 0]

Drawing lines in the sand and calling people apologists and what have you is stupid all around.

 

A guy took a shit load of damage to the brain. He may not have been totally fucking nuts, but he wasn't all there. What he did was terrible all around and that's unavoidable.

 

It's not a black and white situation. It's incredibly gray. Tragic might be the right word. But taking any hard line on something with this many factors is the most unreasonable, irrational thing to do.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

Drawing lines in the sand and calling people apologists and what have you is stupid all around.

 

A guy took a shit load of damage to the brain. He may not have been totally fucking nuts, but he wasn't all there. What he did was terrible all around and that's unavoidable.

 

It's not a black and white situation. It's incredibly gray. Tragic might be the right word. But taking any hard line on something with this many factors is the most unreasonable, irrational thing to do.

 

That's pretty much how I've felt about this situation since it happened.

 

I don't know...I find it hard to pass judgment or blame any one person. There were a ton of factors that went into this. I don't think Benoit was in the right frame of mind, but clearly he knew what he was doing, too. It wasn't just some blind rage or insanity type of thing that made him kill his family and then himself. At the same time, his actions that one day seem to go against what all his friends say about him. I think it's a pretty big jump to say that because he was sometimes quiet or seclusive, that he was secretly a psychopath.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Honestly, I really don't have an opinion on Benoit himself. When I respond to something like Michael Benoit's lawsuit, I'm just giving an honest evaluation on the merits based on my background in Political Science, for whatever that's worth.

[Bix 0]

Just here in the last day or also at PWO?

 

From the former:

 

That might be a moot point if Benoit never requested an examination. I could be wrong on this, but generally it is your responsibility to inform your employer about your injury. I don't know if WWE would be obligated to aggressively pursue the issue.

Already discussed. How is it NOT negligent? He was knocked out and then unable to stand for several minutes when he came to. Common sense would dictate that the WWE doctor examine him. If he did, then, well, he should expect to be sued, too. If he didn't, then why not?

 

And then Michael Benoit would need to explain how Benoit worked, negotiated contracts, etc. for the next three years without showing side effects. How he never lost reality and deliberately injured another wrestler, yet was too damaged not to recognize that killing his wife and child was wrong.

- It's not Michael Benoit's job, it's Cary Ichter's.

- It's been explained that the specific damage would severely mess with Benoit's reaction to stress.

- We don't even know what the lawsuit will specifically entail. Perhaps there's a better case in just suing over Chris's death and not Daniel's. Maybe it won't be wrongful death and will be something else easier to prove based on Chris's brain being visably damaged.

[Bix 0]

At the same time, his actions that one day seem to go against what all his friends say about him. I think it's a pretty big jump to say that because he was sometimes quiet or seclusive, that he was secretly a psychopath.

He WAS a psychopath for a long time, his friends are just covering it up or blind to it because they're in the wrestling business and see his actions as normal.

 

As I said before:

 

The Chris Benoit before the last 3 days of his life was a lunatic who beat his wife, thought invisible men were following him, tortured a younger wrestler for "disrespecting Shawn Michaels," laughed at a crying referee backstage at a Japanese show and then called him a "gay bitch," and may have been injecting his son with HGH for non-medical reasons, among other things I'm probably forgetting.

Besides what's come out already, I have heard some profoundly fucked up stuff more recently that I'm not at liberty to discuss but will be in at least one of the books about Benoit. I'm not sure he would've killed his son with his pro wrestling finishing hold without a discolored demented old man brain, though.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Already discussed. How is it NOT negligent? He was knocked out and then unable to stand for several minutes when he came to. Common sense would dictate that the WWE doctor examine him. If he did, then, well, he should expect to be sued, too. If he didn't, then why not?

 

Negligent from a legal standpoint. If I am injured at work, it is my responsibility to inform my supervisor. That's not my opinion, it's legalese.

 

- It's not Michael Benoit's job, it's Cary Ichter's.

- It's been explained that the specific damage would severely mess with Benoit's reaction to stress.

- We don't even know what the lawsuit will specifically entail. Perhaps there's a better case in just suing over Chris's death and not Daniel's. Maybe it won't be wrongful death and will be something else easier to prove based on Chris's brain being visably damaged.

 

Those are all true. You are correct in that we really would not know the specifics until a lawsuit is filed.

 

One additional thing here. At least when I discuss the issue, I try to remain civil. I don't want to insult another person. I hope others keep that in mind.

[Bix 0]

Already discussed. How is it NOT negligent? He was knocked out and then unable to stand for several minutes when he came to. Common sense would dictate that the WWE doctor examine him. If he did, then, well, he should expect to be sued, too. If he didn't, then why not?

 

Negligent from a legal standpoint. If I am injured at work, it is my responsibility to inform my supervisor. That's not my opinion, it's legalese.

WWE was aware he was injured. He was knocked unconcious and then unable to stand when he came to. Benoit was not competent to make decisions at the moment and should've been checked out. From here, we don't know whether or not the WWE doctor looked at him so it gets muddier. Was he advised that he didn't need to go to an ER, etc?

[Celtic Jobber 0]

Here's the Fifth Estate documentary on YouTube:

 

 

 

 

 

[Corey_Lazarus 0]

And, then there's the fact, that he had problems even before he entered wrestling. On his dvd his dad said he would stay in his room all the time and not talk to anyone. That's weird enough as it is.

 

It's a problem/weird because he wasn't talkative or 'normal'?

It could point to some lingering mental health issues, possibly stemming from birth. Despite how cliché it is to say "it's always the quiet ones," there's a reason the phrase exists: it's usually true. When somebody, ESPECIALLY a young child, is excessively quiet and keeps to themselves too much, it's a sign of some possible mind deficiency or mental illness. If Benoit's parents got him checked out and he was alright but just quiet, then so be it, and people should drop that aspect of any and all arguments towards this case. If not, then I wouldn't blame them for it, since it was a different time then and few people sought out psychiatric help for either themselves or for loved ones.

[Enigma 0]

That quote from Benoit's dad was taken way out of context. He was speaking about him in terms of just wanting to do nothing but lift weights all the time.

[Corey_Lazarus 0]

Actually, it was spoken about him of before he even showed any interest in wrestling, so when he was about 6-9 years old. And I think it was actually his mother who said it, not his father. How many 6-9 year old's have you met who are very quiet and keep to themselves? Now, if you've met them, how many have grown up and been discovered to have some issues?

[bob_barron 0]

That bingo thing is pretty terrible.

 

Benoit Death Investigation Officially Closed

 

POSTED: 10:29 am EST February 12, 2008

UPDATED: 11:51 am EST February 12, 2008

 

 

FAYETTEVILLE, Ga. -- The investigation into the deaths of wrestler Chris Benoit, his wife and son has been closed.

 

The Fayette County Sheriff’s Office announced the end of the investigation Tuesday.

 

Investigators said Benoit strangled his wife, Nancy, and their son, Daniel, to death before killing himself.

 

The deaths happened the weekend of June 23, 2007, inside the Benoits’ Fayetteville home.

 

A press release issued by the Sheriff’s Office Tuesday said that investigators found no evidence that any other people were involved with the killings.

 

A 400-page report on the Benoit case is expected to be issued by the Sheriff's Office Tuesday afternoon.

 

Benoit's doctor, Phil Astin, has been over-prescribing steroids to Benoit, which officials said may have led to Benoit's rampage.

 

Astin lost his license and had been under house arrest, but a judge recently allowed Astin to seek outside work.

[Atticus Chaos 0]

some new details

 

http://www.fayettedailynews.com/article.php?id_news=669

 

I find the most interesting thing is the police speculation that Benoit was in fact intending to go to the ppv, after he killed Nancy and Daniel but then changed his mind. That is almost beyond belief.

[Bix 0]

Paul Heyman blog post at The Sun.

 

There's the young girl who got caught up in the wrestling business as a teenager, ended up leaving the business to become a full time mother, whose professional legacy and even worse, whose brutal murder has been eclipsed by the remembrances of what a "good guy" and a "great wrestler" and a "wonderful family man" and a "respected co-worker" her killer was.

 

And there's a seven-year-old boy, whose room was filled with posters and action figures of his revered father, who has been wrongfully labelled across the world as being a dwarf, or retarded, or a sufferer of Fragile-X, whose wrongly-reported disabilities have been speculated as the cause of the marital strife that many say drove the little boy's beloved father, the murderer, over the edge.

[pappajacks 0]

Wow, i'm surprised at heyman's comments towards his pal Chris Benoit.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Wow, i'm surprised at heyman's comments towards his pal Chris Benoit.

Since he made it to WCW around 1989, he would have known Nancy longer.

[RepoMan 0]

Heyman makes a great point that's really been overlooked.

[Vampiro69 0]

Over/Under on this thread is 42 pages.

 

He was slightly off on his estimation.

[Enigma 0]

I've never understood people that rationalize what Benoit did, such as Chris Jericho, by saying, "Well, this was a totally different person who did this. Let's just remember the person before that weekend." What a bunch of bullshit. Do you think the Toffolonis want to just remember who he was before that weekend? Do you think their pain is eased by the fact that he was such a great wrestler? This guy murdered their daughter and grandson. To top it off, he didn't have the guts to face the music for what he did so he killed himself. They don't fucking care about his wrestling skills or how good a person he supposedly was before this.