Let's talk about John Cena.

[Maztinho 0]

I agree with the sentiment of "I like Cena, but I'm sick of him being Champion." Cena's fine, he just needs to share the spotlight title-wise. A story where he's chasing the champ and not "overcoming the odds YET again" would be a fresh turn of events IMO.

 

Like I said, he's booked wrong. It's not his fault that Vince and Co. want him to be Hogan/Austin/Rock. He's just doing what he's told. In fact wasn't there a report where he said in part that he should be taken out of the title scene for awhile to fine tune his craft?

[Lil' Bitch 0]

I agree with the sentiment of "I like Cena, but I'm sick of him being Champion."

I haven't cared about the RAW Main event scene since Cena beat Edge at Unforgiven

 

That's basically sums it up for me.

 

Wasn't Orton/Cena supposed to be a dream match of sorts? Both came in around the same time (2003). Both started out with somewhat generic characters (Cena with "ruthless aggression" and Orton as the new young hotshot feuding with the veteran Hardcore Holly). Both eventually became heels (Cena with his rapping and Orton with his RNN skits followed by Evolution). Both won mid-card titles then the big ones (Orton I.C. then World, Cena U.S. then WWE) Plus both are young and are two of the better looking superstars today. Would a Cena/Orton long-term feud feel fresh to you guys and would it go over well with the fans?

 

People like to shit on Orton, but I'd pay to see him kick Cena's ass and become the WWE Champion. I think fans would get on Orton's side again. Granted it took him awhile, but he did it before back in mid-2004. I could see him doing it again, hopefully without WWE turning him back into the lame babyface.

[The Niggardly King 0]

It would have made sense to have had Booker, Cena, and Lashley to have taken each other out at Vengeance, while Orton gave Foley a concussion and picked up the win. I think sadistic trying to end wrestlers careers Orton on top with Cena and Lashley chasing him would have done some good business over the summer.

[Chalmation 0]

Wasn't Orton/Cena supposed to be a dream match of sorts? Both came in around the same time (2003). Both started out with somewhat generic characters (Cena with "ruthless aggression" and Orton as the new young hotshot feuding with the veteran Hardcore Holly). Both eventually became heels (Cena with his rapping and Orton with his RNN skits followed by Evolution). Both won mid-card titles then the big ones (Orton I.C. then World, Cena U.S. then WWE) Plus both are young and are two of the better looking superstars today. Would a Cena/Orton long-term feud feel fresh to you guys and would it go over well with the fans?

 

relax

 

cena-orton will be the hogan-sting of the next generation

 

i can assure you that we'll see them wrestle plenty of times in the next 20 years

 

there's a lot of feuds they can go through beforehand, like edge-orton, cena-batista, cena-kennedy, orton-lashley, etc.

[Jingus 0]

Cena only entertains me only when he's getting booed.

Pretty much the same here.

 

I find the whole "over coming the odd" deal is what seems to be killing him. Since he ALWAYS over comes the odds, no one buys him losing no matter how stacked the deck is against him. Also, aside from Khali who else has pinned Cena clean lately? Last time I can remember Cena losing at all was when Edge pinned him at Summerslam last year. Even if he were to get blindsided by a finisher in a tag match and do a job, just to make him look human, it would help into people buying the over coming the odds scenario

That's one thing I REALLY hate, how he just never fuckin' loses. Stone Cold got pinned more back in the Attitude era than Cena has been in the past couple years.

 

when Edge won and they didn't change the belt design, that's when I knew it was going to be Cena for the long haul

Does anyone else think the spinner belt looks really fucking stupid? Especially since it's a clean-cut white boy carrying it?

 

Honestly Cena would be okay if they dropped this new painful goody-good face gimmick and stop having him use that screwed-up STFU. I honestly enjoyed the hell out of his promos from his rapping gimmick, and I would actually look forward to those freestyle rants, especially during his feud with Angle. They don't have to turn him heel, just turn him loose with the rapping again. You can tell that the promos he has to do now are stifling him.

Personally, I never liked the rap gimmick. His deliver was ...really ...fucking ...slow, and man did he love him some fag jokes. But it's still better than his gimmick now, which is... uh... a backyarder with freaky caveman strength and a Foley-like pain tolerance who can't afford to buy real ring gear?

 

The STFU annoys the crap out of me just because it's the one move he has that is completely inconsistent with both his character and his in-ring style. He's a brawler/powerhouse. Every other move he does plays to those strengths. Having him constantly employ the STFU flies in the face of his entire style. It shocks you out of enjoying the match whenever he does it. I would suffer a similar break if I suddenly saw Umaga bust out a crossface chickenwing as a finisher. I'm nitpicking, I know, but that kind of stuff drives me nuts. I'd be equally flabbergasted if I suddenly saw Chavo Guerrero use a damn chokelsam. It doesn't make any kind of sense for the character or the wrestler's style.

It's amazing the number of blind Cena marks I've argued with who NEVER have a good response for that point. Either they just change the subject, get mad, or try to explain it away with some absolute bullshit.

 

The people who like him tend to wildly overrate him (i.e. "best worker in the world!" arguments - although that's mainly a DVDVR thing).

The people who like him THAT much make me doubt their intelligence and/or sanity. Except for his feud with Khali, Cena's rarely the best worker in the ring while he's wrestling.

[Obi Chris Kenobi 0]

The Spinner looks exactly like the Gimmick Toy belt they sell in the stores. It's cheap, it's tacky, I hate it. It's not a belt at all.

[Toxxic 0]

I hate Cena's superman run, but on the other hand I was well into Hogan's similar run when I was young, and I imagine that a lot of people on here aren't THAT much older than me... (I'm 25, I know there are older people on here, but you know what I mean). I can't really judge things very well as I thought Hogan was great in the 80s - was it a similar case then when the marks/kids such as myself thought Hogan was great but the older, smarter fans couldn't stand him?

[AntiLeaf33 0]

A long reign as champ in the 80's or 90's is a hell of a lot different then it is now. Now we have wrestling on TV every other night, so after a while you can get sick of seeing the same thing over and over.

 

In the 80's and 90's wrestling was on TV 1 or 2 nights a week....not exactly over-exposure to the product, which in turn helps keep a long reign as champ from getting stale as quick.

[Jingus 0]

Not to mention that until 1995 when both companies started running weekly pay per views, you only had a small handful of PPVs per year. Now you've got one every three weeks just from the WWE alone, plus TNA, now ROH, various low-rent crap like WEW and Japanese Hardcore Wrestling, all those "legends of wrestling's past" cheapy ppvs, etcetera. The amount of free TV is much more, but the amount of TV they expect you to pay for is much more to. And I'm not gonna fucking pay to watch John Cena win every time. (Apparently a lot of people agree with me, looking at recent buyrates.)

[Just John 0]

Surprised people still hate Cena. You'd think a year and a half of good to great matches would win people over. His superman run is one of the best things in wrestling right now. When someone beats him for the title, it will actually mean something. When it looks like it has a chance of happening, people will pay to see it.

 

As far as the intial question of he ranks as a top wrestler, my WWE rankings are as follows:

 

1. Matt Hardy

2. John Cena

3. MVP

 

[Guest Toddiwod]

Hell yeah, Matt Hardy. I really dig what he's done lately. I know it'll never happen, but I'd love to see him be Edge's next challenger for the title. I won't get my hopes up, but I think with their past history, it'd be a cool feud.

 

Cena is doing a great job, and I think people trash him for reasons that are beyond his control. He's doing what the company wants. The guy works his ass off, loves the business and has nothing but respect for other workers from what I can tell. People knocking Cena for the STFU always makes me laugh, mostly because I can definitely see their point. But I guess every main-even guy needs some sort of submission finisher. Honestly, with his "awesome strength", I'd figure a torture-rack would be better.

 

MVP pissed me off to no end when he came on the scene, but now I love the guy! His feud with Benoit was really cool, and I'm hoping they'll continue to push him.

 

I want to see CM Punk as ECW champ, as I honestly think he's the only credible choice at this point, besides Dreamer, and I really don't think he'll get that kind of push at this stage.

[Brett Favre 0]

Have Cena hold the belt for like 2 more years and in the meantime build up CM Punk. Cena beat the Umagas, and the Great Khalils of the world, but it was CM Punk, the smarter wrestling technician who gets it done. And you can have run ins over the years where CM Punk usually has Cena's number, and really being the only guy that does.

[Jingus 0]

Surprised people still hate Cena. You'd think a year and a half of good to great matches would win people over. His superman run is one of the best things in wrestling right now. When someone beats him for the title, it will actually mean something. When it looks like it has a chance of happening, people will pay to see it.

But I don't consider any Cena match I've ever seen to be "great". And not that many of 'em "good". You like him, fine, but don't insist we should ALL like him. (Hell, I just rewatched his debut match against Angle, and he was doing interesting and different stuff in that which he hasn't even attempted in years since then.)

 

As for "it will actually mean something when someone beats him"? Uh... when has wrestling EVER not fucked off the eventual beating of the superman? Except for Hogan/Andre, I can't think of a time when someone losing has actually helped draw money.

 

Well, ironically, except for Edge beating Cena after cashing in his MITB, but that was a lightning-strike situation that they've already tried and failed to recreate.

 

Have Cena hold the belt for like 2 more years and in the meantime build up CM Punk.

What, "that whining, skinny indy guy" holding Triple H's bah gawd world title? Dream on.

[2GOLD 0]

The only way this Cena run will end up being complete crap is if the guy who beats him clean for the belt is a guy who didn't need the amount of rub a win over Cena would be worth now. If say HHH or HBK take him down, then what was the point of all of this? To build them up even MORE than the superstar main event status they already are?

 

Right now I can only think of one man I want to see take out John Cena and that is Mr. Kennedy. If they can start a feud between the two of them, I think it would be one of the greatest programs in a long while. Two very good talkers, both are passable in the ring and the springboard off Cena would build Kennedy into an instant superstar.

 

As long as they don't waste the win over Cena on someone who doesn't need it, I am perfectly fine with Cena. He was stale for quite some time but now he seems to have found a comfortable balance between just shouting gay jokes and catchphrases to being a guy who does that on occasion but for the most part he just wants to fight.

[Just John 0]

His matches with Edge, Umaga, and Michaels don't come across as at least good? He even got watchable matches out of Khali. I mean you don't have to like Cena, but saying he hasn't that many good matches lately seems like some tough standards.

 

And the prospect of someone losing has never drawn in wrestling... Hogan at Starrcade 97? Goldberg at Starrcade 98? HHH at WM 20 and 21? You build a guy up enough and eventually, yes, people will pay to see him lose.

[Jingus 0]

His matches with Edge, Umaga, and Michaels don't come across as at least good? He even got watchable matches out of Khali. I mean you don't have to like Cena, but saying he hasn't that many good matches lately seems like some tough standards.

Yeah, his matches with Edge and Umaga were good. I credit those more to his opponents than him. Haven't seen the ones with HBK. But mostly, Cena just seems to do the same ol' Attitude-style brawls over and over again. His execution on the moves is often pretty shady; he's kinda like Rock without the explosive quickness and only half the charisma. And I would never, ever refer to any match involving Khali as "watchable".

 

Yes, I do have tough standards for in-ring action. Because that's my favorite part of wrestling. If they never aired a single promo or backstage skit again, I wouldn't shed a tear.

 

And the prospect of someone losing has never drawn in wrestling... Hogan at Starrcade 97? Goldberg at Starrcade 98? HHH at WM 20 and 21? You build a guy up enough and eventually, yes, people will pay to see him lose.

Wrestlemania always draws, period (and how is beating HHH again special after the first time?). As for the Starrcades, what about the fact that WCW's ratings and buyrates steadily declined after Starrcade 97, got MUCH worse after 98, until the company finally flopped?

[Mike wanna be 0]

People will pay to see a guy lose, but not when they know he's just going to cancel that loss out with about six dozen wins immediately thereafter.

[Just John 0]

I think you have to give Cena some credit for the Edge and Umaga matches. Yes, Edge and Umaga are very capable in-ring performers, but they're not carrying Cena out there. Cena's timing, selling, and mannerisms all helped those matches succeed. I watched the TLC match with Cena and Edge today, and I remembered how great Cena was at working the hostile crowd when he had to play heel. Edge didn't go above and beyond to get the crowd to cheer for him to help the match, but Cena really went out of his way to antagonize the crowd with his taunts and smirking. I don't know how anyone could make a case that Cena's bumping and selling were not key factors to making the Umaga series a success.

 

I don't know if you've seen the JD match with Khali, but I thought that was definitely watchable. I might agree it shouldn't have been a ME-level program, but the match was fine, and it was all Cena.

 

If you're going to dismiss my WM examples, why did you even try to pre-empt the obvious Hogan/Andre example?

 

HHH's loss the second year speaks volumes about how he was perceived. Since WM 21 drew one of the largest WWE buyrates ever, I think this example deserves some notice. With Batista's only successful program after this being with Taker, I think we can give HHH more of the credit for that draw.

 

WCW long-term consequences shouldn't matter since the fans' desire to see a loss can really only be reflected with a ppv buyrate. Just because WCW had bad booking doesn't mean that people weren't very interested in the results of some of their matches. I could cite some examples where a guy loses, then business picks up afterwards, but that's not really what we're looking at here.

[Jingus 0]

Okay, you're ignoring one key thing here:

 

People are supposedly paying to see a show on the chance the invulnerable guy might lose? Okay, that makes sense if it's Triple H or Hollywood Hogan we're talking about...

 

But Cena's a babyface. Or, at least, he's supposed to be. He's certainly booked as one. And yet he gets massive boos in about half the arenas. And PPV buyrates are down. He does sell merchandise, and maybe he draws at the house shows (debatable, and house shows are a relatively small chunk of the WWE's total revenue anyway), but he's certainly not carrying the entire company to financial success like a REAL top baby in the Hogan/Austin mode is supposed to.

 

 

 

As for Cena's wrestling "skills", we're just gonna have to agree to disagree, cause nobody is gonna convince me that the guy is anything more than average.

[Brett Favre 0]

Have Cena hold the belt for like 2 more years and in the meantime build up CM Punk.

What, "that whining, skinny indy guy" holding Triple H's bah gawd world title? Dream on.

 

Triple H likes CM Punk.

[Jingus 0]

He must be the only one, cuz it seems like everyone not named Paul Heyman utterly hates him. (And wasn't HHH one of the ones complaining that Punk was "too indy", used too many Japanese moves and played towards the smart marks too much?) Arn Anderson in particular has been named as someone who doesn't like the guy, and supposedly the McMahons don't see much long-term potential in him either.

[Golgo 13 0]

As I recall Vince likes him but Stephanie isn't too fond.

[luke-o 0]

As I recall Vince likes him but Stephanie isn't too fond.

 

Thats probably because he's too small and doesn't tear his quad enough.

[Guest shoryuken007]

He's not all hot and roidy like her boy toy.

[Just John 0]

Okay, you're ignoring one key thing here:

 

People are supposedly paying to see a show on the chance the invulnerable guy might lose? Okay, that makes sense if it's Triple H or Hollywood Hogan we're talking about...

 

But Cena's a babyface. Or, at least, he's supposed to be. He's certainly booked as one. And yet he gets massive boos in about half the arenas. And PPV buyrates are down. He does sell merchandise, and maybe he draws at the house shows (debatable, and house shows are a relatively small chunk of the WWE's total revenue anyway), but he's certainly not carrying the entire company to financial success like a REAL top baby in the Hogan/Austin mode is supposed to.

 

Goldberg was a face too. If you build up an invincible face, then present a situation where he might lose, you get people buying to see him "overcome the odds" and keep on winning. This works best when you put him against another strong face like Warrior/Hogan or even Nash/Goldberg because then everyone has someone to cheer for and faces are usually built up as stronger than heels.

 

I would also suggest ppv buys are down becuase of oversaturation, not because people don't want to see Cena. The other thing that should be noted is that it doesn't matter if fans are cheering or booing Cena, so long as they pay to do so. Cena can be top face to most people, and a top heel to others.

[luke-o 0]

Okay, you're ignoring one key thing here:

 

People are supposedly paying to see a show on the chance the invulnerable guy might lose? Okay, that makes sense if it's Triple H or Hollywood Hogan we're talking about...

 

But Cena's a babyface. Or, at least, he's supposed to be. He's certainly booked as one. And yet he gets massive boos in about half the arenas. And PPV buyrates are down. He does sell merchandise, and maybe he draws at the house shows (debatable, and house shows are a relatively small chunk of the WWE's total revenue anyway), but he's certainly not carrying the entire company to financial success like a REAL top baby in the Hogan/Austin mode is supposed to.

 

Goldberg was a face too. If you build up an invincible face, then present a situation where he might lose, you get people buying to see him "overcome the odds" and keep on winning.

 

Difference being that Goldberg was believeable in the role. He looks like someone who can't be beaten. Same goes for Samoa Joe. Cena doesn't come off as that type of character.

 

[Mad Scientist 0]

Okay, you're ignoring one key thing here:

 

People are supposedly paying to see a show on the chance the invulnerable guy might lose? Okay, that makes sense if it's Triple H or Hollywood Hogan we're talking about...

 

But Cena's a babyface. Or, at least, he's supposed to be. He's certainly booked as one. And yet he gets massive boos in about half the arenas. And PPV buyrates are down. He does sell merchandise, and maybe he draws at the house shows (debatable, and house shows are a relatively small chunk of the WWE's total revenue anyway), but he's certainly not carrying the entire company to financial success like a REAL top baby in the Hogan/Austin mode is supposed to.

 

Goldberg was a face too. If you build up an invincible face, then present a situation where he might lose, you get people buying to see him "overcome the odds" and keep on winning.

 

Difference being that Goldberg was believeable in the role. He looks like someone who can't be beaten. Same goes for Samoa Joe. Cena doesn't come off as that type of character. (emphasis added)

 

This is true and it's lost on so many. Lesnar came across as a believable juggernaut too. Goldberg was booked to go through opponents like an oncoming train. Joe for a while at least was booked like an invincible badass. This is not something everyone can pull off, charisma-wise or personality-wise, even if the wrestler is booked for it properly, which Cena is not.

 

Cena matches typically go like this: (1) Cena gets pummelled, tossed around, and generally whipped from pillar to post for 90% of the match; (2) Cena "hulks it up" and makes a comeback; (3) FU/STFU is applied; and (4) Opponent is pinned/taps out. You can't make a believable Goldberg/Lesnar/early Andre out of this kind of program. Unbeatable guys don't get dominated for most of the match only to make a superman comeback at the end to win. Cena is booked more like Hogan, and honestly that era has passed. There's only so many times per week or per month any wrestling fan who's not a complete Cena mark can stand to watch that match.

 

This is not to say that Cena can't put on a good show; he can and he often does. Cena and Nitro's match was excellent, and did a good job of showing that Nitro is a somewhat legitimate champion, as he took Cena far closer to his limit than the supposedly invulnerable Khali did. And Cena did an excellent job of showing that he now saw Nitro as a possible threat by the end of that match, after initially taking him lightly. Cena could also pull off a badass gimmick if booked for it, but he would have to undergo a gimmick overhaul, and he would never be able to rap again. A white boy rapping is the antithesis of a badass gimmick.

 

[pochorenella 0]

I find the whole "over coming the odd" deal is what seems to be killing him. Since he ALWAYS over comes the odds, no one buys him losing no matter how stacked the deck is against him. Also, aside from Khali who else has pinned Cena clean lately? Last time I can remember Cena losing at all was when Edge pinned him at Summerslam last year.

Shawn Michaels beat him clean on the RAW prior to Backlash in a 55-minutes match.

[Jingus 0]

Shawn beat him because 1.the show was rewritten at the last second due to Orton being sent home from Europe, and 2.it's fucking Shawn, he ALWAYS gets his win back for doing a job.

 

Khali beat him because, uh, it's Khali, and they let him retain the tiniest smidgen of monster baddassness in between jobbing like a Mulkey to Cena every other time they fought.

 

 

Other than that? Edge and RVD are the only guys I can think of who pinned Cena... once each... in non-clean victories... to start their title reigns. Cena IS booked exactly like Hogan.

[Just John 0]

First of all, Cena doesn't need to be booked like a monster. He's booked to where he always steps up his game for big matches and digs down deep to pull out the win. He has more of a Misawa-like invincibility aura than a Hogan one. It's still a very effective way to book someone.

 

Cena matches typically go like this: (1) Cena gets pummelled, tossed around, and generally whipped from pillar to post for 90% of the match; (2) Cena "hulks it up" and makes a comeback; (3) FU/STFU is applied; and (4) Opponent is pinned/taps out.

 

This is ridiculous. The Khali ppv matches are the only ones I think come close to fitting this description, though that's generally what you see from any monster/normal guy match. The Umaga matches don't even fit this. At the Rumble, Cena was getting dominated a lot, but the idea was him avoiding all the death spots to keep him in the match until he could finally choke Umaga out. At NYR, he got dominated, but there was no "hulking up," rather a simple survival roll-up. The HHH, Edge, and Michaels matches were all evenly built back-and-forth kind of stuff. The RVD match was actually mostly Cena because he was the heel. I'm not sure where anyone gets the idea all of Cena's matches are the same, because they aren't.