OAO Raw Thread - July 30, 2007

[Bix 0]

Yeah, there is no way it would work. The WWE would want all of their main eventers to go over, they would treat everyone from ROH and TNA like second rate losers and wrestling would be completely slammed.

 

That's old style "WWE is the universe" thinking. We've had that already. How's it working out?

 

Whatever WWE does to fix this has to be outside Raw as we know it. Simply adding in concepts that have already been done or names that have already been worked won't do it.

 

We need a new Monday wrestling template with a new creative czar, new voices to hear each week, maybe even a new Monday show not called Raw.

 

That's what 2.5 means.

If you sincerely believe that John Cena vs Rod Strong with Rod going over would pop the Raw ratings, then you are hallucinating. That or you're really, really unintelligent.

[JustJoe2k5 0]

We need more Funaki.

[Obi Chris Kenobi 0]

We need more Funaki.

 

INDEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED! Sorry, I couldn't resist, I still find it funny.

[The Niggardly King 0]

It's because they didn't finish the who blew up Vince angle.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

It's because they didn't finish the who blew up Vince angle.

That's actually one of the excuses being given for the rating slide.

[The Niggardly King 0]

No wonder Vince wants Smackdown like RAW and keeps shitting on Michael Hayes.

[The Niggardly King 0]

Well, looks like Cena isn't going to be getting his well deserved vacation.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

The Ratings Killer, Randy Orton.

[Celtic Guardian 0]

If you sincerely believe that John Cena vs Rod Strong with Rod going over would pop the Raw ratings, then you are hallucinating. That or you're really, really unintelligent.

 

...or never wrote such a thing in the first place.

 

I am not suggesting that any non-WWE wrestler necessarily go over Cena. I am suggesting that WWE get out of its self-imposed box of what it can do and what it can't. A sense of true unpredictability has to be restored to the promotion.

[Obi Chris Kenobi 0]

If you sincerely believe that John Cena vs Rod Strong with Rod going over would pop the Raw ratings, then you are hallucinating. That or you're really, really unintelligent.

 

Or never wrote such a thing in the first place.

 

I am not suggesting that any non-WWE wrestler necessarily go over Cena. I am suggesting that WWE get out of its self-imposed box of what it can do and what it can't. A sense of true unpredictability has to be restored to the promotion.

 

But judging how well Santino Marella went over with his surprise 'non-WWE' entrant win of the IC Title went, I can't see them doing that with Cena and the WWE Title.

[The Niggardly King 0]

The Ratings Killer, Randy Orton.

 

Hey, the last time the ratings died, Orton was in the Main Event scene.

 

But really, there's plenty of things they could blame this on.

 

Santino cut a promo

 

Cryme Tyme segment that never ended

 

It's summer time

 

People have been enjoying The Closer

 

Larry King

 

WHERE'S JEFF HARDY??!!

 

Kennedy goes over Bobby... We Love Bobby

 

Cody Rhodes natural physique was too much for the casual viewer to handle

[Downhome 0]

I can't wait to see what HHH's return does for the RAW rating.

[cabbageboy 0]

I actually do think that the Vince death angle not being paid off might have something to do with it, but they can't really pay it off and the amusing thing is that there's no real logical way to bring him back onto TV. He was blown up...The End.

 

Raw's problems are numerous. Here are just a few of them:

 

1. Raw has a champion that isn't consistently over, yet they keep the belt on him due to either stubborness or a lack of options. Let's face it, people aren't that stupid. Fans watched guys like Austin and The Rock struggle, lose the title, get ripped off. Since nobody buys Cena being better than those guys, it must just be his competition sucks.

 

2. There are no viable title contenders on Raw. They moved Booker to Raw mainly to bury him. They put Lashley on Raw and immediately jobbed him out to Cena and killed whatever future interest could lie in a program between them. Kennedy was moved to Raw and started jobbing immediately, though he had zero momentum anyway and hasn't since losing the MITB. HHH will get back but HHH/Cena is hardly a fresh matchup, neither is HBK/Cena. Orton/Cena is sorta fresh 1 on 1 I suppose, but hell having Orton as #1 contender may well be a factor in the scary 0.9 drop.

 

3. WWE keeps putting old men on TV for no reason. Is there any reason that I should be seeing Slaughter and Lawler wrestling on TV in the year 2007? Or Dusty Rhodes? Or Jimmy Snuka? Lawler is fine in his commentary role, but has never been taken seriously as a wrestler in WWE due to their own shoddy usage of him in the past.

 

4. Raw's current storylines aren't very compelling. There is literally no must see reason to watch Raw, or even a sorta interesting reason. At least with SD I can ponder if Batista will take out Khali, or if Matt Hardy can beat MVP for the US title. With ECW I can get behind CM Punk to see him beat John Morrison. There's no there there on Raw right now. It's a bunch of midcard JTTS guys masquerading as #1 contenders, guys doing the ultra stale feud over who is the KING, and a phony Italian jobber trying to nail a hot chick. In other words the WWE title scene is stale, the IC division is hardly there, and the tag division is jobber central. Note that when WWE was at its best they had strong world title divisions, tag scenes, and IC contenders.

 

5. Raw's wrestling is largely mediocre. Know how SD has remained somewhat decent? The wrestling is at least adequate or good on the show. I've been able to at least tolerate ECW since there's an occasionally decent match on it. Raw currently has mediocre in ring wrestling and also dull storylines. Has Raw ever had a combination like this before? Even in the dull mid 90s period they at least had guys like Bret, Shawn, Owen, Bulldog, and the like to deliver in the ring.

 

6. Raw practices a scorched earth mentality. I pose the question: Who in the past 2 years (aside from Cena, who was already WWE champ) has benefitted from a move to Raw? It seems like they rape SD's roster yearly, and then take the guys from SD and job them out on Raw. Meanwhile SD pushes some other people and essentially ends up being okay.

 

7. Raw has a lack of heroic guys that fans can get behind. I fear that WWE is stuck in this shades of gray Russo mentality and it doesn't really work anymore. I'm not saying that the faces need to be saints, but do any of these alleged good guys on Raw seem like guys you'd want to be friends with, or have your kids look up to? Or better yet, how about that rogue type character that you like and sometimes he's good, but sometimes goes bad and takes a wrong path only to eventually come to his senses (think of Randy Savage's character arc from roughly 1988-91).

 

Anyway, those are just some of the problems with Raw at the moment. I would try and think of the solutions too, but I'm going to need a while to think about it, haha.

[Chalmation 0]

there's no other explanation than the 2.5 number being a glitch or something

 

now if it happens again next week, then WWE can go crazy and figure out a way through the ratings mess

 

but i wouldn't beleive 1/3 of a fanbase in the millions would lose interest in the product for no reason over the space of one week

 

especially when most of that remaining fanbase is fanatics who'll watch anything that's passed off as wrestling

[JustJoe2k5 0]

there's no other explanation than the 2.5 number being a glitch or something

 

now if it happens again next week, then WWE can go crazy and figure out a way through the ratings mess

 

but i wouldn't beleive 1/3 of a fanbase in the millions would lose interest in the product for no reason over the space of one week

 

especially when most of that remaining fanbase is fanatics who'll watch anything that's passed off as wrestling

 

That 1/3 was united in their disgust at the absence of Jeff Hardy.

[The Niggardly King 0]

At this very moment... Batista and Khali are the biggest draws in the company...

 

 

 

[JustJoe2k5 0]

At this very moment... Batista and Khali are the biggest draws in the company...

 

Don't let Vince hear that. Batista would be shipped to RAW in no time.

[tommytomlin 0]

This is the most beautiful piece of ratings news in a long time. For comparison's sake, here's a WCW Nitro from the 30th of October 2000 that also drew a 2.5.

 

# October 30, 2000: World Tag Team Champions, Mark Jindrak and Sean O'Haire, b Billy Kidman and Rey Mysterio, Jr, Hardcore Champion, Reno, b Kwee Wee, M.I. Smooth b David Flair, Lex Luger b Buff Bagwell, Kronik b Shawn Stasiak and Chuck Palumbo, Ernest Miller b Cruiserweight Champion, Mike Sanders, World Champion, Booker T. b Scott Steiner and Mike Awesome in a three way match.

 

Reno = John Cena.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

This is the most beautiful piece of ratings news in a long time. For comparison's sake, here's a WCW Nitro from the 30th of October 2000 that also drew a 2.5.

 

# October 30, 2000: World Tag Team Champions, Mark Jindrak and Sean O'Haire, b Billy Kidman and Rey Mysterio, Jr, Hardcore Champion, Reno, b Kwee Wee, M.I. Smooth b David Flair, Lex Luger b Buff Bagwell, Kronik b Shawn Stasiak and Chuck Palumbo, Ernest Miller b Cruiserweight Champion, Mike Sanders, World Champion, Booker T. b Scott Steiner and Mike Awesome in a three way match.

 

Reno = John Cena.

 

 

What in the world does Reno have to do with John Cena?

[tommytomlin 0]

Same effect on ratings.

[Jingus 0]

Same wrestling ability.

[foleyfanforever88 0]

Both have last names that go consonant-EN-vowel.

[v.2 0]

Quote of the day at Wrestling Classics about why ratings are down:

 

Yeah, it's rough in the summer because of the good weather keeping people out. It then dips from September to January because of football. There's usually a drop in February because all the other shows are doing stunts for sweeps. March is usually down because of March Madness. Once you get into April and May, there's a post-Mania slump. Aside from that, there's really no excuses for low ratings.

[JimmyHendricks 0]

Double Post, Sorry.

[JimmyHendricks 0]

A lot of what I'll say is common knowledge, but I'll repeat anyway.

 

John Cena, the WWE Champion, is supposed to be their biggest star, a face, and yet half of the crowd boos him every time he comes out. While this is an interesting twist for a top guy to have, it no doubt impacts the ratings when HALF of your audience dislikes the guy. The half that is cheering him is mostly kids, women who think he's hot, and marks who cheer because they are told to. However, the audience is much smarter than they were even 5 years ago, and see right through him, and that's where the boos come from. I like John Cena and think he can definitely be the top guy for years to come, but he seriously, seriously needs a character makeover. It isn't innovative and hip to have your top guy be disliked by 50% of the fanbase. If you want to give the guy a Hogan-like, multiyear run at the top--fine--but Hogan also benefitted from not being on TV every single week. The product is much more televised and overexposed than it was 20 years ago.

 

They'll never do it, but they really should cut back on monthly Pay Per Views, now that they include all 3 brands. Every RAW (and Smackdown and ECW) is about building to the next PPV in 3/4 weeks, when they really should have several months to build up contenders for titles and various feuds. Like I said, that won't ever happen because monthly PPV's make revenue, even if the buyrates suck. But they definitely hurt the product as a whole. If it doesn't spike the ratings, they don't stay with it. How can you build a guy into a star when he's only given 4 weeks and one PPV match/title shot?

 

We get short-term booking. Orton going from loitering around the midcard to being a #1 contender who can kill people by kicking them is an example. People don't buy someone suddenly becoming a threat. They also are, again, much smarter than the WWE thinks (or wishes). EVERYONE rolls their eyes when J.R and King go into Owen Hart mode whenever Randy punts someone. It's dumb, not riveting entertainment. The fans were nuts for Austin back in mid 1997, but he didn't get the title shot (or the title) until mid-1998. It was a slow build. Nowadays the #1 contender is just someone to feed to Cena, ala Hogan in the 80's. I don't think the "Long Term Champion Overcomes the Odds Yet Again" formula works anymore.

 

It seems like more top guys (and more guys in general) are suffering major injuries. More and more guys (and girls) are doing more high risk moves and spots, trying to impress someone with the 4 minutes of match time that they have. Vince "We Make Movies" McMahon is all about the entertainment, but it IS possible to be entertained by actual wrestling. Pro Wrestlers (the vast majority of them) are terrible actors. So why are we being subjected to soap opera vignettes and feuds over who is the best fake "King"? Yes, I know USA Network is pressuring them (now, at least), but this has been a problem for years.

 

It might not have a short term impact, but letting the talent script their own promos and characters, rather than writing for them, line for line, would in the long run make things seem less artificial. Part of the reason Cena can't get over with the smarks is because he's being written as a corny, PG rated Rock knockoff. If they let him do his own thing, perhaps it would give him an edge people could get behind. Rock and Austin became stars because they had the talent to get over themselves. Everything is too controlled now, and I don't know why. The biggest stars the Pro wrestling business has ever seen got themselves over.

 

But I think the biggest reason RAW (and the entire WWE) is struggling (and has since 2002 or so) is the talent they have isn't even close to what was around 7 years ago. You better believe that if WCW was still around and doing well, or if TNA was actually a threat, that half the guys you see on your TV every week wouldn't be there. But, now they don't have to beat someone else in the ratings, so we get un-over cookie cutter characters and guys who are greener than Dr. Dre's finest bag of chronic. I'm all for bringing in new talent and creating new stars, but (and I've said this before), they could release half of the roster and I wouldn't care about most of them. Back in 1998/9/2000, things seemed more realistic. You truly felt that Austin, Rock, and HHH were playing versions of themselves. Mick Foley was over largely because fans liked his book(s)--he, not Mankind, was beloved. Now we have cartoons like Umaga, parodies like "King" Booker, and greatly exaggerated sterotypes like Cryme Time.

 

I don't know what the answer is, but I'm sure they will panic and do some sudden, short term change, when the real solution is slowly building and evolving. It's funny that back in 1997 and 98, at the heat of the Monday night wars, the WWE was much more thought and planned out than today. They don't have a competitor breathing down their necks, they can do things their way, at their own pace, yet they don't. And the product suffers because of it. The ratings were at record levels 7 or 8 years ago because they brought in casual, non-fans--mainstream success. Then that boom went away. WCW folded. Rock went off to make movies. Austin retired. HHH tore his quad, and wasn't the same in the ring afterward. The WWE became complacent.

 

They need a major, top, crossover star. John Cena is NOT it, at least in his current incarnation. HHH has never, to me at least, been capable of being a major, mainstream guy. I still remember some MTV interview Austin did back in 1999 or so, and when HHH invaded and attacked/confronted/ Austin, literally no one in the audience knew who he was. This was just as he was becoming "The Game", but he had been the leader of D-X and at the top for quite a while, and everyone was still like, "who?" The WWE (and HHH himself, especially) would want you to believe that he's one of the biggest stars in history, but it's only because he's booked himself at the top for the last 5 years. He would never fare well with the typical drive by fan. Rock and Austin were Hogan, HHH is Flair. Not necessarily in talent, but in terms of marketing and crossover appeal. Hogan is a household name. Flair is a household name if you've ever watched him on TV.

 

I really don't know who can be that guy. It'll probably just happen, like lightning in a bottle, just like it was with Austin 10 years ago. But I fear that with everything so controlled and literally scripted, that no one will be able to breakthrough. We smarks have always had an inside view as to what would be happening, but now even marks can tell what will be happening. The only time something surprising happens is when (A) Someone gets injured and they have to do a SHORT TERM booking change, or (B) They try something interesting, but it usually is only SHORT TERM and things return to normal, with Cena as champ and Vince on TV.

 

I remember Bischoff's line on the Monday Night Wars DVD, something about how fans want to see something realistic, something surprising, something spontaneous. Nothing feels that way anymore. Will it change? I hope so--as much as I (and others) bitch, I've been a fan for 19 years, and I want to watch every week with excitement like I did when I was 10, and even when I was 17. Will it happen? I hope so. Time will tell.

[Black Lushus 0]

Too long of a post to read, but let's look at two things I did catch: I must be getting different sound than you...Cena hasn't gotten booed by half the crowd for months now. I wouldn't even say 1/3 of the crowd booes him. Holy Exaggerations Batman!

 

And how is Cena not a crossover star? He's no Austin or Rock, but he's certainly on the verge of, if he's not already, being a household name.

[Spaceman Spiff 0]

Cena's movie did considerably better than Austin's movie.

[billdynamite 0]

I don't think anyone can be bothered to boo Cena anymore. What's the point? Nobody is listening.

 

The reaction he gets when he comes out is feeble, considering he's the top guy and champion for nearly a year. The boos actually made his entrance sound more interesting, now he hasn't even got that, it's so dull.

[Mecca 0]

I think casual fans for the most part like Cena, especially in the midwest where I live he never gets booed here. But here's what I'll also say I think he in many ways turns off the age demo I'm in which is 18-34, just with his promos which isn't entirely his fault. When he's out in the ring cutting a promo that sounds like it was purposely written for an 8 year old I'm not going to enjoy him, he called a guy Mr. Crappy Pants...really.

 

A huge problem with the WWE today is they don't want the wrestlers to have any input to their characters at all anymore. They want to write what you say word for word and you go to out there and say it. If you suggest things or actually ad lib you actually get punished for it. They basically want you to do as you are told and that is it. I think a lot of that does come back to the WWE wanting to pick and choose who is over and who's not....for the last several years they've had this severe thing about "we as creative and a company make stars the wrestlers and fans don't have shit to do with it they do what we say"

 

My honest opinion of why ratings are dropping is they took 2 very unlikeable characters to a young male demo and put them against each other in the top Raw feud. There is no one to root for in that match because young males don't exactly like either guy....it probably doesn't help that some of these guys G/F's likely like both these guys. So you get guys going "I'm not even watching this shit especially when my g/f is around the last thing I wanna hear about is how much she likes these guys or thinks they're hot when they're the main program on the show and I hate both of them"

 

In short they put 2 wrestlers who I think come off very poorly to a good majority of the male demographic of wrestling. So those guys have no one to cheer for and said you know what fuck this.

[ANKLELOCK 0]

Cena hasn't been getting ANY noticeable boos in a long time. It's a tired argument used by people who haven't watched since he actually was getting mixed reactions. And yes, at this point in time, he's a bigger draw than an Austin or HHH or Foley. Although I will agree that the "Time is Now" (no obvious pun intended) for him to lose that title and get rid of the spinner.