TSM TOP TEN: Light-Heavyweights

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Alright, with the Light Heavyweight division being in ABSOLUTE CHAOS, it's time for some clarity. Or at the very least an attempt to put the pieces together that would some how resemble a cohesive top ten list. Do it how you like: By "he beat him, and him beat that guy" and let your head asplode, or just by looking at their skillsets relative to each other, or pick names out of a hat (probably the most accurate method available). I'll throw out some names for consideration:

 

Quinton Jackson

Keith Jardine

Chuck Liddell

Reshad Evans

Tito Ortiz

Shogun Rua

Wanderlei Silva

Dan Henderson

Lyoto Machida

Houston Alexander

Sokoudjou

Ricardo Arona

Antonio Rogerio Noguiera

Stephan Bonnar

Babalu Sobral

Jason Lambert

 

[Hawkius Maximus 0]

Hawkstah's LHW TOP TEN~!~!~!~one

 

#1: Quinton Jackson - Unquestionably the top guy in the division now. While his run in PRIDE didn't exactly end with the brightest flash ever, he's went 3-0 in UFC, won the UFC LHW title and the PRIDE LHW title. You can't really argue with that.

 

#2: Shogun - Until the fight with Forrest, Shogun was in my mind the unquestionable #1 fighter at 205 in the world. His performence against Forrest wasn't great, but until he loses another fight I won't take him out of the top five. I'm hoping it was just a glitch in his training that led to that loss, but we'll see.

 

#3: Lyoto Machida - 11-0, three wins in the UFC, and while most of his wins have been by decision, they haven't even been close. Machida's style just eats away at an opponent until they have nothing left. I don't think there's anyone he couldn't beat, and hopefully in his next UFC fight we'll see him against a legit top guy and see how he pans out.

 

#4: Forrest Griffin - Might not have been in my top ten had he not just beat Shogun, which shows how impressive it was. Forrest looked like a world beater in that fight, using a strategy to exploit Shogun's gas tank which no one had ever been able to do before.

 

#5: Wanderlai Silva - Has lost two back to back fights both by KO...but has only lost two fights in the 205 division since 2000. He also claims to have been deathly sick for the Henderson fight, so who really knows if he had been 100% how that fight would have went or if he's lying. Until he loses atleast one more fight to a 205 pounder, he remains in the top five.

 

#6: Chuck Liddell - I really didn't want to initially rank Liddell at all...but the more I've thought about it, the more he's deserved it then an Arona or Lil'Nog. Liddell RULED UFC's LHW division for a long period of time, and then before that outside of a few set backs had been a top contender for some time as well. He's lost two in a row, and he could be on the decline, but he could also rally any time.

 

#7: Tito Ortiz - Tito's odd, in that he's Tito Ortiz but since 2004 he hasn't really done much. He's went 5-1-1 since the first loss to Chuck Liddel...but two of those were against Ken Shamrock, and one of them was against a green Forrest that I still believe he lost. If he beats Rashad he'll probably go up...or he'll go down if he loses.

 

#8: Sokoudjou - Between Houston Alexander and Soko, I chose to list Sokoudjou if only because his two wins were of higher quality. Sokoudjou beat Lil' Nog and Arona in less then two minutes both times. No one else has ever done that. He's going to fall out of the top ten if he doesn't do something real soon though.

 

#9: Keith Jardine - I'm only listing Jardine because I have to, pretty much. I don't see him as a top ten fighter. He beat Chuck Liddell, but while I think Chuck is just slipping right now, I don't think Jardine would beat anyone in front of him on the rankings (and yes, I remember he beat Forrest...but Forrest has improved DRAMATICALLY), and in fact, I don't think he could beat many outside of my top ten. His record outside of the Forrest and Liddel fights isn't impressive. If Jardine is matched up against a top guy in his next fight, I think we'll know for sure if he's legit or not.

 

#10: Rashad Evans - Rashad is kind of like Jardine, in that I REALLY don't know if I buy the hype, but he has went 5-0-1 in the UFC, and while he hasn't really beaten anyone of note, he nearly beat Ortiz and if he fights damn hard he might be able to do it in the rematch. If not, he falls out of the top ten for me. He's on the bubble as is.

 

Also rans:

 

Ricardo Arona - My first instinct was to rank Arona...but upon further inspection of his record, he REALLY hasn't beaten that many elite guys at 205. He has the decision win over Silva, a win over Lister, Overeem, Horn, and Mezger spread out over many years...Everyone else is either a bulked up fighter above their weightclass, or an alsoran. On top of that, he's lost three of his last five fights with two KO's...He's VERY close to the top ten, but until he signs with a company and does something, I can't in good faith rank him.

 

Antonio Rogerio Nogueria - Falls in with Arona, in that my first instinct is to rank him...but he's only fought two times from 2006 to 2007, and then only twice in 2005. In his two fights from 2006-2007, he went 1-1 with a win over Overeem and a loss to Sokoudjou. I think he, like Arona, has all the tools to be a top ten...but his record and in his case, inactivity keeps me from ranking him confidently.

 

Houston Alexander - I basically decided I had to choose either Sokoudjou or Alexander to rank due to their similiarities...I chose Soko because of WHO he beat, while Alexander beat Jardine and then Sakara...Jardine before the Liddell fight might have been in my top twenty...but Sakara isn't anywhere near that for me. Their spots will easily change if Alexander keeps it up.

 

Hidehiko Yoshida - I honestly believe Yoshida is the toughest 205 pounder in the world. Almost to an idiotic level. Yoshida is naturally tough, strong, and talented...he's just not on an elite level. That being said, his idiotic toughness keeps him in fights LONG after he shouldn't be in them. I personally believe he won one of the Silva fights (I believe the second, but it's been so long since I saw them), and if he had, he'd be in my top ten...but with a 7-5-1 record I can't rank him...Although I REALLYWANNA.

 

Dan Henderson - Seems odd that he's not ranked, but there's a legitimate reason for it: I don't view him as a 205 fighter. Same thing with Sakuraba, who could still probably be ranked if you really wanted to. Henderson is a Middleweight Fighter who bulks up to LHW. Hopefully he moves to his natural weightclass now.

 

Agree or Disagree as you wish.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

LIGHT HEAVYWEIGHT (205-185) fr shrdg

 

1. Quinton Jackson (Pictures) (28-6-0)

"Rampage" has worked past the troubles that haunted him after a tough series of fights in PRIDE, the last of which saw him go down in defeat to "Shogun" Rua. The exciting and flamboyant UFC light heavyweight put himself on the map by blasting out Chuck Liddell (Pictures) in less than two minutes. He followed that with a hard-fought victory over Dan Henderson (Pictures) on Sept. 8. With an injured hand, Jackson likely won't fight until next spring. "Rampage" takes the No. 1 spot with Rua's loss.

 

2. Dan Henderson (Pictures) (22-6-0)

Undersized for the division, Dan Henderson (Pictures) is not a known name amongst many casual MMA fans. A scrappy former Olympic wrestler who's worked hard to integrate a dangerous striking game, punctuated by one of the best right hands in the sport, Henderson has continually defied the odds against heavier opposition. His 25-minute war against Jackson is indicative of how tough the 37-year-old Henderson can be. Henderson slides up two spots.

 

3. Wanderlei Silva (Pictures) (31-7-1, 1 NC)

The Brazilian mauler enjoyed one of the best stretches of any fighter in the history of MMA from 2000 through 2004, including two brutal stoppages over current UFC champion Quinton Jackson (Pictures). Known for an aggressive fighting style and a penchant for KOs, Silva reigned as the 205-pound PRIDE champion until February of this year, when Dan Henderson (Pictures) dominated the fight in Las Vegas to win by knockout. Silva will likely make his UFC debut sometime before the end of the year. Silva benefits from the losses of Shogun and Liddell to move to No. 3.

 

4. Keith Jardine (Pictures) (13-3-1)

Proof that a good game plan and a quality fight camp can get you far in MMA, Keith Jardine (Pictures) enjoyed the benefits of both on Sept. 22 in out-pointing former UFC light heavyweight champion Chuck Liddell (Pictures). Like Liddell, "The Dean of Mean" was returning to the ring for the first time since suffering a brutal knockout loss. But Jardine showed no ill effects in winning. He goes from unranked to No. 4 on the strength of the Liddell decision and a destruction of Forrest Griffin (Pictures) at the end of last year.

 

5. Forrest Griffin (Pictures) (15-4-0)

Tough. To be so is an important trait for a fighter, but alone it's usually not enough to find someone ranked amongst the elite. Griffin has taken his toughness and added to it over the years. That hard work, done recently in Randy Couture (Pictures)'s gym in Las Vegas, paid huge dividends on Sept. 22 when the unranked "The Ultimate Fighter 1" winner submitted Mauricio Rua (Pictures), who topped most rating lists at 205 pounds. Though Griffin has had his ups and downs -- a brutal KO loss to Jardine and a controversial decision loss to Tito Ortiz (Pictures) -- he jumps into the fifth spot based on the effort against Shogun.

 

6. Mauricio Rua (Pictures) (16-3-0)

Rua had nothing for the previously unranked Griffin in their Sept. 22 UFC fight. Following the choke-out loss, Rua falls from No. 1 to 6. The Brazilian earned his reputation by winning in Japan, where he demolished current UFC champion Quinton Jackson (Pictures) and captured the prestigious PRIDE Middleweight Grand Prix. With his exciting fighting style and world-class skill, the Chute Boxe fighter was poised to become a star in the United States. At just 25 years of age, he can rebound from the Griffin defeat, but it will take excellent performances for him to find the top spot any time soon.

 

7. Chuck Liddell (Pictures) (20-5)

Liddell saw his stretch as the baddest light heavyweight in the UFC come to an end when Quinton Jackson (Pictures) won early in the first round of their May bout. Most expected him to bounce back strong against Keith Jardine (Pictures), but "The Iceman" failed to answer a game plan that saw his opponent move his head and stay out of range. Two losses in a row apparently have Liddell contemplating retirement, though big fights still loom for the star UFC fighter if he wants them. Liddell falls from 3 to 7.

 

8. Rameau Thierry Sokoudjou (Pictures) (4-1-0)

Africa's top mixed martial artist exploded upon the world stage in 2007 with early knockouts of top-10 light heavyweights Antonio Rogerio Nogueira (Pictures) and Ricardo Arona (Pictures). The accomplished judoka has relied on his hands, but he's also paid the price for slugging it out, suffering a stoppage loss last October to Glover Teixeira (Pictures), a training partner of Chuck Liddell (Pictures). Inactivity and a flurry of action in the top five push Sokoudjou down from 6 to 8.

 

9. Ricardo Arona (Pictures) (13-5-0)

A dominant grappler, Arona amassed an impressive record with just two defeats (Fedor Emelianenko (Pictures) in 2000 and Quinton Jackson (Pictures) in 2004) before becoming the first light heavyweight in five years to defeat Wanderlei Silva (Pictures). However, three losses (Silva, Shogun and Sokoudjou) have come in his last four fights, with the only win a stoppage over Alistair Overeem (Pictures). Arona is a tough match-up for anyone in the division. He drops from 7 to 9 in the latest ranking.

 

10. Antonio Rogerio Nogueira (Pictures) (12-3-0)

"Minotoro" has just three fights in three years, and is 1-2 during that span, but a record that features wins against the likes of Guy Mezger (Pictures), Kazuhiro Nakamura (Pictures), Kazushi Sakuraba (Pictures), Alistair Overeem (Pictures) and Dan Henderson (Pictures) means Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira (Pictures)'s twin brother is pretty good. His loss in the PRIDE 205-pound Grand Prix to Mauricio Rua (Pictures) was perhaps the fight of the year. In February, Sokoudjou stunningly knocked out Nogueira. After concentrating on boxing and representing Brazil in the Pan-American Games, Nogueira will return to MMA in Canada's Hardcore Fighting Championship later this year.

 

Note: Rashad Evans (Pictures) (9) and Jason Lambert (Pictures) (10) fall out of the top 10 with the inclusion of Jardine and Griffin.

[Hawkius Maximus 0]

I could see ranking Arona, like I said in my list...but when you really look at Lil'Nog's record, you can't honestly rank him. He has all the talent in the world, but the guy BARELY fights at all. On top of that, none of his wins, sans Henderson are really that impressive when you break them down. Beating Nakamura twice doesn't really impress me. Overeem depends on WHICH Overeem shows up mentally...Beyond those, Kosaka is the next impressive to me and that happened in DEEP. I mean, seriously...I've read people say you can't put Fedor at #1 in HW due to inactivity...but he's fought 2.5 TIMES what Lil'Nog has in the last three years, and people still rank Rogerio. Doesn't add up.

 

I also strongly disagree with Henderson being ranked. Everything I've heard says he's going back to Middleweight, which would be the smartest move for him. If he doesn't then fine...but like I said, everything I've heard says he is dropping back down.

 

Jardine being ranked so high is really just "What have you done for me lately?" type deal. He beat an unranked (in my eyes) Forrest, and then beat Liddell who was coming off a loss. I'm fine with him being in the top ten...but FOUR? Ahead of Forrest who has also won two in a row, but finished Shogun? I dunno.

 

That's really the problem with top tens. Their inherently selective. I look at overall records, and importance of the wins. Others, like this list, seem to go on recent events or hype.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

But, but, but... Lyoto. Rashad. Lambert and Bonnar are good wins, but they are just that, "good". And, well, Lyoto has a list full of "names" but nobody near top ten status. At LHW at least. Not that I agree or disagree with their placements, it's just those are more hype than actual wins over top talent.

[Hawkius Maximus 0]

I do admit I overrank Lyoto. I can't really argue that.

 

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

As long as you are aware of it, I don't have any problems with the placement. If you think Lyoto can beat most of the guys in the division, then it's where he should stand. It's more of a "wait and see, it will pan out in his favour" kind of deal... pre-emptive ranking, if you will. I've been known to do that, too. I'd probably still have Shogun as number one, but will have to see how he rebounds off of the Griffin loss.

[Hawkius Maximus 0]

I rank Lyoto so high because he's fought some pretty decent names, and he's never once been in any real danger. Plus, like I said in another thread, his style facinates me. Lyoto doesn't just beat people, he BREAKS them mentally. Plus, he's one of those fighters who appears to not have any weakness at all. He doesn't get tired, he can take shots, it's hard to hit him, it's hard to take him down, and when he gets down he has fantastic ground work.

 

But yeah. I overrank him a little bit much. He still hasn't beaten anyone in my top ten. I'd still put him in the top ten if I reworked it if only for his promise.

[starvenger 0]

I'd still put him in the top ten if I reworked it if only for his promise.

You need to leave the terms "promise", "upside" and "potential" for young pups like Houston Alexander...

 

Lyoto, I think that he pretty much is what he is, and I just don't see him noticeably improving his game with each fight, so in my mind, he doesn't show promise. But if what he does is enough to beat the "name" guys (and we need to see him face some of those guys), all power to him - and it'll make you look like a genius for ranking him that high.

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

So how about now?

 

Rampage

Jardine

Chuck

Forrest

Shogun

Lyoto

Wanderlei

Soko

Rashad/Ortiz

 

I left out Houston, but he has a fluke win over Jardine and a horrible loss to Thiago Silva, who I don't feel has done enough. This is really fucked up, but these are the top ten guys in the division in my eyes. I think a guy like Lyoto would give Rampage fits with his striking, and that Rampage would be hitting at air with many of his punches. Not as bad as Chuck would be though, that would not be a pretty fight, Chuck vs. Lyoto.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

It's really hard to rank Soko after he got fucked by Lyoto so hard and by showing so little skill on the ground.

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

I agree, maybe I can push Thiago Silva in there somewhere, but the guy had two huge wins, and was not fucked as badly as people think. I mean he was dominated, but this wasn't Stout/Florian levels of quickness here. He put up a fight, nearly reversed position, and stalled out. The thing is, getting tagged on the feet leaves a bad feeling as well.

 

I'm curious about the effectiveness of judo, because Machida clinched and took him down at least once from recollection, which should be what Soko's good at, if his judo cred is as strong as they say. Not to mention that he's way bigger and stronger.

 

Machida is the new Judo killer, after what he did to Da Nak as well. What happened to that guy anyway? I hope he fights again. But I digress, Machida vs. Jardine for the number one contender's spot BOOK IT

 

Thiago Silva vs. Wanderlei, and Soko vs. Houston Alexander. All make sense as far as I can see.

[Guest Warriorfan]

 

 

1. Quinton "Rampage" Jackson- The undisputed champion and the fighter of the year. Whatever doubts that may have existed after the Liddell fight were completely eliminated with his domination of Henderson.

 

2. Shogun Rua- I chalk up Shogun's debut loss to a combination of arrogance and unfamiliarity with the cage. I am hoping for a Shogun vs Silva fight next year to confirm his true status.

 

3. Forrest Griffin- Forrest looked as though he has reached a whole new level given his fight with Shogun. While I don't think he beat a prime Shogun; the skills he dsiplayed would give him more than even odds with everyone outside of rampage.

 

4. Chuck Liddell- This may be tainted by a hangover from last night's classic but I believe Liddell has found himself after the Rampage defeat. He was dropped, pushed and challenged by one of the best in the LHW division and he responded. A fight with Alexander or Evans would be very interesting.

 

5. Rameau Thierry Sokoudjou- This is questionable given last night's results but I think Sokoudjou is right in the middle of the best LHW in the world.

 

6. Keith Jardine- Destroying Griffin and beating Liddell earns Jardine this placement. Its hard to not be a believer when he has beaten the former LHW champion and the NO 1 contender.

 

7. Wanderlei Silva- Even in a loss last night, Silva seems to be back on track. He took some tremendous shots from Liddell and kept coming showing that his chin is intact despite the 2 KO losses from CroCop and Henderson.

 

8. Dan Henderson- This is the most questionable ranking but I think it fits. Henderson can come in and beat any LHW in the world on any given night. I clearly think Dana is setting up a showdown with Silva vs Henderson next year but Henderson vs Silva, Henderson vs Shogun are also intriguing potential matchups.

 

9. Rashad Evans- Evans has been looking better with each fight and I think he is ready to beat some of the top contenders out there. The rematch with Ortiz seems like a given and I think Evans will win a Unanimous decision.

 

10. Tito Ortiz- Even though it's by a thread Ortiz is still a top tier fighter. Until one of the young prospects or PRIDE imports definitively beats him he deserves to be in the top 10.

 

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

Those are terrible.

 

I should point out that I took out Hendo because I'm assuming he's moving down to middleweight, which he is for his next fight, so automatically that removes him.

[The Niggardly King 0]

You guys have to remember Sok is only 23 going on 40 and only has 6 fights. He'll be back as long as he focuses more on the ground game, and looks for more than just that big shot on his feet.

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

I was pointing that out elsewhere as well, a lot of people are writing him off, forgetting about his age and his big wins. However, he does need to improve his ground game alot. That can't be denied.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

There's a difference between seeing Soko as a prospect and as a top ten fighter. I can't possibly try to figure out the placements in this division, but I will say that Lyoto moves up, Soko moves way down, Arona and Noguiera fall even further. We're getting to a point where there is, to a certain degree, a lack of options where guys with the least flawed fighters are in the top 10 by default.

[Guest Warriorfan]

Those are terrible.

 

I should point out that I took out Hendo because I'm assuming he's moving down to middleweight, which he is for his next fight, so automatically that removes him.

 

You have Lyoto in your top 10 and ranked Jardine 2nd and my picks are terrible.

[Hawkius Maximus 0]

I think my rankings above are still really solid...Liddell should obviously go up, Sokoudjou goes down, and a few other things, but pretty much solid.

 

I can't even CONCEIVE not putting Lyoto in the top five after this. I'd move him up to #2 now myself. He's fucking 4-0 in UFC, he's STILL not been put in any real danger, and he just completely owned Sokodjou, then had the balls to publically challenge for the title. Lyoto has yet to show any weakness in his game other then possible pacifity...and when you're winning...what does that matter?

 

You may not like Lyoto Machida, but his style eats fuckers alive. There is NO ONE that fights like he does. Some find it boring, as I've said, I do not, but atleast give him his do now.

[Guest Warriorfan]

I have to admit I am biased against Lyoto because of his style. He should get a proving ground match the same way Jardine did and that will remove all doubt. Which matchup Dana will give him is the question? There are a lot of headline fights and I don't think White will risk a repeat of the Gonzaga vs CroCop upset derailing a big fight.

[The Niggardly King 0]

I believe more in Thiago Silva than I can Lyoto

[Youth N Asia 0]

It's getting harder to make cases for Tito. He hasn't finished anyone not named Shamrock since 2001. He didn't do anything special against Cote, who was fighting at a weight he didn't belong in, and a less than great Vitor. Some people as well as myself still say he lost the Forrest fight, but it was close.

 

He's a name, but I don't think he's top 10 anymore