Turning Point

[Jingus 0]

Are Smashing Pumpkins and Daria really goths?

No, just examples of other stuff that were fads during the same time period. Can't really say Nine Inch Nails or Tim Burton when they're still putting out new material.

[Guest Joseph2112]

By now he's obviously a gimmick, but there's some PPV feedback on WO.com that made me think it was from Jearan. It was so damned positive. There was also some feedback that caused enough of a "stir" that Meltzer let the bastard write his own rebuttal. Scott Batura all over again, but instead of the actual wrestler he critcised getting mad, it's a bunch of fans.

 

Speaking of WO, what the hell is this comment from the WO report of the show supposed to mean:

 

"Reign did a promo saying, "I don't like spiders and snakes, but that ain't what it takes to love me, like I wanna be loved by you." Yes, JBL is booking the company writing Michael Hayes' interviews while thinking it's still 1975."

 

First off, I have no idea what Reign is even saying here. Second, why is JBL booking TNA?

 

 

Why, Reigns quote is from a song by that big, current trndy star, Jim Stafford. Yup, that Jim Stafford. (OK, here's a link. He's Branson, Missouri's #1 act don't you know!)

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Stafford

 

And I thought the gimmick poster was doing well and I was holding out hope, but I agree with all, he fizzled pretty quick.

 

[Guest Jearan]

he fizzled pretty quick.

 

TNA TNA TNA TNA TNA!!!!!

 

IN YOUR FACE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mad Scientist 0]

Are Smashing Pumpkins and Daria really goths?

No, just examples of other stuff that were fads during the same time period. Can't really say Nine Inch Nails or Tim Burton when they're still putting out new material.

 

Didn't Smashing Pumpkins just kick out something new in the last couple of months? I remember hearing something to that effect on Ye Olde Radio.

[Obi Chris Kenobi 0]

Are Smashing Pumpkins and Daria really goths?

No, just examples of other stuff that were fads during the same time period. Can't really say Nine Inch Nails or Tim Burton when they're still putting out new material.

 

Didn't Smashing Pumpkins just kick out something new in the last couple of months? I remember hearing something to that effect on Ye Olde Radio.

 

Nothing you didn't hear 10 years ago, infact, its just what you heard 10 years only, you're 10 years older and not as angry, so it sounds shite.

[cabbageboy 0]

10 years ago? Hell, when I think Smashing Pumpkins I think of their run of Gish, Siamese Dream and Melon Collie and the Infinite Sadness, which is more like 1992-96. I'm not sure how they would be even associated with goth, I'd say they were more in the 1990s alt rock movement (but not exactly grunge, despite their presence on the Singles soundtrack).

 

10 years ago the Pumpkins were doing shit like a song on the Batman and Robin soundtrack.

[Obi Chris Kenobi 0]

10 years ago? Hell, when I think Smashing Pumpkins I think of their run of Gish, Siamese Dream and Melon Collie and the Infinite Sadness, which is more like 1992-96. I'm not sure how they would be even associated with goth, I'd say they were more in the 1990s alt rock movement (but not exactly grunge, despite their presence on the Singles soundtrack).

 

10 years ago the Pumpkins were doing shit like a song on the Batman and Robin soundtrack.

 

This is true, I just don't like to admit that I feel older then I am. Damn you TIME, DAMN YOU! But then, I'm only 23, that's hardly THAT old... right?

[luke-o 0]

Well I'm nearly 22, so no you're not.

 

And fuck you guys, Pumpkins rule.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

From the latest F4W:

 

The string of awesome TNA PPVs ended with Turning Point, and really that was only because the last hour of the show fell off a cliff.

 

It was a weak show on paper, though in TNA nearly everyone works hard and sometimes you get a surprise. I thought Eric Young vs. James Storm would be pretty good, but it was so much more fun than I could have imagined. To an even greater extent, Awesome Kong vs. Gail Kim blew my mind. It wasn't the best match of all time, particularly since I'd just watched the ROH PPV the night before, but the magic was that for whatever reason the people cared about it like they've cared for almost nothing else in this company in a long, long time. You didn't have the fans playing along, and doing their wacky chants when they were "supposed to". Instead, you seemingly had real passion, real fear for Gail Kim and real fear of Awesome Kong and what she was capable of doing. It worked so well that when the ref called for the DQ, half the crowd cheered because Gail had survived with her title, and half the crowd was chanting "YOU SUCK" -- at the REFEREE, who had made a fake call in a fake wrestling match. This was magic.

 

The big story on the show was the promo Joe cut on the no-showing Scott Hall. On the bright side, he had passion. He said things that some of the guys in the back were probably so happy to hear, about how the young guys were always held down and the old guys were there collecting paychecks. Problem is, we've been hearing "shoot promos" like this for over a decade now. Worse, no one in the crowd cared, because no one in the crowd cares any more. Nobody cares about "shoot promos" in 2007, particularly when nobody cuts the mic and the guy cutting the promo has to throw in the line about how "TNA management" can fire him if they want. Yawn. There is the chance that if Joe had cut this promo a year ago, when he was on the cusp of legitimately breaking through and long-time champ Jeff Jarrett was having people chant "DROP THE STRAP" at him, this may have worked. But today, after five years of failure to elevate guys and create stars, and after bringing in so many guys from WWE that it's actually become a running joke on TV, TNA fans don't appear to care at all anymore. In the right place at the right time, this promo would have made Joe a hero. On this night, the crowd just sat there, and then when the match started and he went to work they weren't into him any more than anyone else on the show, and in fact quite a bit less, and the lack of heat for Booker T's hot tag was actually really sad. The main event was a failure on nearly every level, the only success being that at least Joe pinned Tomko without a million ref bumps and a dozen guys running in like usual.

 

Hall no-showed, claiming food poisoning via text message late that afternoon. It was a real no-show, as in, he called, told his story, and didn't appear at the building. I would suspect his career is over, but I suspected it was over several months ago and TNA still brought him in. If you think I have even the slightest bit of sympathy for TNA, think again. In fact, the real surprise wasn't that Hall no-showed, it was that Nash did show. Joe spent his entire promo running down Nash, and really, he should have praised Nash for actually showed up for the match when his partner wasn't there. Russo, the master of the swerve, should have thought of this. Rhino also no-showed, citing an injury. He was replaced by Raven.

 

But in the end, as noted, I liked the first two thirds of this show. Not sure if I was in the majority as one person in the Observer's feedback wrote, "Can we not go one December w/out a horrible PPV where we feel raped?" Clearly this man doesn't watch Impact if this PPV made him that upset.

 

There was also drama later Sunday night. The Torch site reported that Joe's speech wasn't supposed to be as long as it was, that the person who he said was free to fire him if they wanted was Dixie sitting in the front row, and that after the show Nash was waiting for him backstage and they got into a heated confrontation about what Joe had said about him during the promo. During an all-talent meeting the next day, when the guys were all given the opportunity to get out of their contract if they wanted to, Low-Ki stood up and ended up the only guy that accepted. Joe then cut a promo apologizing to everyone about what he'd said the night before.

 

The basic details of all of this are true. Problem is, I don't believe any of it is legit with the probable exception of Low-Ki quitting. Joe's promo, in every possible way, was straight out of the Vince Russo playbook, all the way down to telling Dixie that she could fire him if she wanted to. I find it completely impossible to believe that Nash wasn't in on this. It was a replay in many ways of the whole Vince Russo speech at Bash at the Beach 2000. See if this sounds familiar. Hogan came out for his World Title match with -- and what a coincidence -- Jeff Jarrett. Jarrett immediately laid down and Hogan covered him for the pin. Hogan then stormed out of the building and Russo came out cutting a promo about how Hogan was a selfish asshole and had refused to do business due to his creative control clause. He said as God was his witness we'd never see that big bald son of a bitch again. Jarrett was then declared to still be champion, and he lost the belt in the main event to Booker T.

 

Backstage at the Bash, everyone, including Kevin Nash, believed what had just happened was legit. What it was, though, was the latest attempt by WCW to work the boys, a strategy that in many ways helped to work them into oblivion. It was a take-off of, yes, Montreal, and the only people in on it at the time were Hogan, Russo and Bischoff. Nobody even told Jarrett, who may still believe it was legit to this day. I believe the plan was eventually to bring the big bald son of a bitch back with the belt he won from Jarrett to do a belt vs. belt feud with whoever was WCW Champion at the time.

 

Problem is, Hogan didn't so much like being called a big bald son of a bitch and got legitimately upset. So upset, in fact, that he filed a defamation of character lawsuit against Russo and WCW. In fact, this suit dragged on for so long that it was the sticking point when TNA tried to bring Hogan into the company several years ago (Russo was working there at the time). Funny how life works.

 

So now, seven years later and nearly ten years to the day after Montreal, we got something surprisingly similar here. I would guess that the entire thing was a work and only a handful of people knew. For sure nearly everyone backstage thought this whole thing was real. I would guess Russo, Joe, Nash and probably Dutch and Jarrett were in on it. I suspect Dixie was not, but you never know. Further evidence is the fact that Russo has already started working the boys backstage; this would not be the first, or an isolated incident. We have learned that the Traci collapse from several weeks back was a total work. According to a source who overheard a conversation involving individuals who would absolutely know, Russo told Traci to "faint" and to not tell anyone that it was a work. She ended up feeling really guilty about it because she had to lie even to her good friends, but was concerned that she might lose her job if she didn't go along with it.

 

Consider these questions. What was the point of Traci pretending to faint if it led to nothing except eventual distrust for management among the workers? What was the point of Joe burying Nash at all if he was going to tag with him later? What was the point of any sort of "backstage confrontation" if it's leading to Nash and Joe remaining a team on Impact and 99% of the crowd doesn’t even know what happened? And if it does lead to a Nash vs. Joe feud, which I expect, you still have 99% of the fans that don't know the back story and can't know unless the announcers start talking about "shoot promos" again, which nobody gives a fuck about or believes in 2007. (The lack of interest in Joe's promo, nearly complete silence outside the Torch reports, was something at least I found unsurprising, but I'd suspect Russo was baffled.) Here's a better one. Senshi got a briefcase at the PPV that, in storyline, could have contained a pink slip. He quit the next day. Instead of saying he was the guy with the pink slip, in his last set of tapings he lost the briefcase to Chris Daniels. Why? Because he was supposed to win the tag title shot and they had plans to fake fire someone else. So instead of changing plans and having Senshi be the fired wrestler, which would at the very least convince the fans that your stipulations are to be taken seriously, they are going a different direction and will be doing a fake firing with someone else instead.

 

Welcome to WCW.

[DrVenkman PhD 0]

Huh, didn't hear about the Traci thing being a worked shoot. Pretty awful stuff. I look forward to Bryan's eventual book about TNA if this trend continues.

[Jingus 0]

From the latest F4W:

It worked so well that when the ref called for the DQ, half the crowd cheered because Gail had survived with her title, and half the crowd was chanting "YOU SUCK" -- at the REFEREE, who had made a fake call in a fake wrestling match. This was magic.

 

Alvarez needs to work more shows in the South. Sometimes literally half the noise the crowd ever makes is just heat on the referee. They HATE refs down there.

[luke-o 0]

I thought Traci fainted for real?

[Jacques 0]

If Tracy was faking, we would have heard it by now by somebody reliable ie Meltzer or Keller. That whole article sounds like a bunch of speculation.

[Corkscrew_Senton 0]

If Tracy was faking, we would have heard it by now by somebody reliable ie Meltzer or Keller. That whole article sounds like a bunch of speculation.

 

A.K.A. 99% of Internet wrestling "journalism"

[cabbageboy 0]

That is truly bizarre, the Senshi story. The guy legit quit and he won a briefcase that could in theory have a pink slip. Why not just have him be the fired guy?

[Corkscrew_Senton 0]

That is truly bizarre, the Senshi story. The guy legit quit and he won a briefcase that could in theory have a pink slip. Why not just have him be the fired guy?

 

Because it's TNA and nothing is allowed to follow such silly concepts as "logic".

[Guest LuckyLopez]

Because they never intended to actually fire someone and had some kind of a "fired" story (good or bad) they wanted to do and still do?

[Guest Jearan]

That would forgetting that all the they can say in this gothic forum is "it sucks" and "they have no plan".

 

[King Kamala 0]

I know it's completely off topic but I'd like to use this thread as an opportunity to show some photos from the last TSM gathering;

 

 

 

[vermilion 0]

I know it's completely off topic but I'd like to use this thread as an opportunity to show some photos from the last TSM gathering;

 

I'd try and be "funny" and claim to be one of the guys in the pics but umm.....are there any guys in those pics? Stupid goths, look at them, being all goth and hating TNA.

[King Kamala 0]

First picture I'm pretty sure there are two guys and two girls but the second one, no fucking clue what those guys are. Fucking TNA hatin' andorygenous goths

[TheFranchise 0]

First picture, second in from the left could be either.

[bob_barron 0]

[luke-o 0]

That is truly bizarre, the Senshi story. The guy legit quit and he won a briefcase that could in theory have a pink slip. Why not just have him be the fired guy?

 

What I think is more bizzare is that Senshi quit, and then worked the next two nights...

[cabbageboy 0]

He was likely just finishing up and jobbing, etc. If he stays around another month it might get a bit strange though.

 

 

[Corkscrew_Senton 0]

He was likely just finishing up and jobbing, etc. If he stays around another month it might get a bit strange though.

 

It would certainly fall in line with the other "throw shit at the walls and see what sticks" brand of wrestling reporting I've come to expect. Remember when Alex Shelley, Lethal, Sabin, and basically everyone else was leaving back in the summer?

[Atticus Chaos 0]

I have to disagree with people that says only 1% of the audience would get Joe's shoot (Alvarez). It's not that difficult to grasp: Hall doesn't show, Joe gets mad, Joe puts over the younger guys and says the old guys are lazy and don't care, Joe gets Eric Young because he's an x division guy and can be relied upon. You don't have to be an internet fan to get that scenario.

 

If you did base a Joe/Nash feud around this you wouldn't need to have a backstory or be in the IWC to understand it: Joe thinks Nash is old, lazy and indifferent and wants the company to be more about the younger guy. People can probably relate to that situation because maybe it happens in their jobs. The problems would only really start if Russo starting writing stuff about the clique, bckstage politics and other stuff that most people wouldn't get. But so far, Russo (if the whole turning point promo wasn't a shoot) hasn't scripted anything that casual fans couldn't easily understand. And I'm not a big fan of his, by any means.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

TNA UPDATES ON SAMOA JOE, EMOTIONAL ROSTER MEETING, KEVIN NASH, STING, RHINO AND MUCH MORE

by Mike Johnson

 

As I reported during the post-game show for the TNA Turning Point PPV, Scott Hall no showed the PPV and was not backstage at any point this past Sunday. Hall contacted the company at some point in the afternoon claiming he had food poisoning. TNA pretty much wrote him off at that point and there are no plans to bring him back anytime soon, if ever. Of everyone backstage, Kevin Nash seemed the most let down over Hall's no show as he's been relatively supportive of Hall trying to get things back on track and has tried to help him. With Hall gone, TNA made the call to put Eric Young in the match and have Samoa Joe cut a promo to take the heat for the no show off of the company. While Joe gave a tremendously passionate promo, the way that he framed the veterans of the company didn't sit well with Nash partially because he was standing in the ring with Joe at the time, so the promo gave the impression Joe was aiming the comments at Nash, who then had to stand there and tag with Joe immediately afterwards. The promo wasn't designed to be an "insider shoot" promo to start a program between younger and older factions of the roster, although Joe's passion made it come off that way. When the PPV was over, Joe and Nash had words backstage over the promo, which at one point became physical, with Nash as the aggresor. Joe eventually walked away from the argument and later apologized to Nash. The feeling among those I spoke to in the company was that after Joe and Nash squashed things, it was a dead issue and they've already moved on. At least one worker I spoke to believed that Nash may have simply taken his anger out over the Hall situation on Joe. There is said to be no lingering issues between the two over the situation.

 

There was no real heat on Joe from TNA management, as I was told both Jeff Jarrett and Dixie Carter realized Joe got caught up in the heat of the moment. When Joe turned to Carter, who was sitting in her usual ringside seat (Carter sits ringside at all of the PPVs, often with TNA business partners such as executives from SpikeTV. She does not take an active backstage role during the actual production of the shows) and told her that if she didn't like it, she could fire him, it was an improvised moment that Carter simply played off of. The TNA announcers didn't acknowledge who she was, nor was it a moment planned to bring Carter into an on-screen role.

 

At the Monday TNA tapings, Carter held a meeting with the entire roster. She explained to them how much she appreciated their role in helping the company grow and at times became choked up and teary-eyed while discussing how far she's felt the company grow. Carter noted that there has been talk of talents, particularly the younger members of the roster, being unhappy with their roles. Using an analogy that actors perform in a play as written for them and athletes run the plays that are called by coaches, Carter explained that the wrestlers were no different in carrying out what was asked of them. She then announced that contracts for the entire roster had been brought to the meeting and if anyone wanted to be released, they could receive them. As Buck Woodward reported, Senshi was the one person who took Carter up on the offer and the belief is that the release was amicable. Basically, Carter felt that if anyone was truly unhappy, they could take their leave of the company and if not, they were to be on board with what they were asked to do by TNA, because they had their chance to exit. The offer was made to the entire roster, not just certain segments. During the meeting, several of the veterans of the roster, including Booker T and Kurt Angle, talked up what a special place TNA is and that the company had only just begun to grow. For those wondering, the meeting had been planned before Joe's promo and was not prompted by his comments at the PPV.

 

There has been no movement between Sting and TNA in regard to Sting accepting the contract offer that TNA offered him for 2008. Sting was scheduled to appear on the Mexico house shows later this month, but since they are cancelled, there are no current plans for him to appear on other TNA events as opposed to those dates. The Genesis PPV may have ended up becoming his TNA swansong, and his potential retirement match.

 

As noted during the Turning Point post-game PPV, Rhino missed the PPV due to either a neck problem or a personal situation that precluded him from appearing. I've heard conflicting stories since the night of the PPV.

 

The Against All Odds PPV will officially go on sale tomorrow morning via Ticketmaster.com.

 

Since we've been asked, there are plans in the future for Ron Killings. He was figured into future plans as of the most recent creative meeting.

 

Abyss received a number of stitches after Turning Point. There were no other major injuries during the PPV.

 

I have to disagree with people that says only 1% of the audience would get Joe's shoot (Alvarez). It's not that difficult to grasp: Hall doesn't show, Joe gets mad, Joe puts over the younger guys and says the old guys are lazy and don't care, Joe gets Eric Young because he's an x division guy and can be relied upon. You don't have to be an internet fan to get that scenario.

 

It's the fact that it was supposed to be a 'shoot', something going against the script, that would go over people's heads.

 

[Atticus Chaos 0]

It's the fact that it was supposed to be a 'shoot', something going against the script, that would go over people's heads

 

Why? Regular tv shows break the fourth wall all the time. Live tv has plenty of moment where people go off script. People have no problem understanding those incidents. So, what's so difficult to understand about Joe cutting a non scripted promo?

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

It's the fact that it was supposed to be a 'shoot', something going against the script, that would go over people's heads

 

Why? Regular tv shows break the fourth wall all the time. Live tv has plenty of moment where people go off script. People have no problem understanding those incidents. So, what's so difficult to understand about Joe cutting a non scripted promo?

Regular TV shows do a lot of things, but not all of them would fly on a wrestling show because wrestling is completely different animal. Even if Joe's promo was a shoot, has TNA done anything to suggest that it meant anything? Joe and Nash were teaming up on Impact like nothing happened, so if anyone thought it was a shoot, or wanted to think it was one, it's hard for them to do that anymore, and more importantly, it's hard for them to care. If the idea of this was to create an angle that comes across like something real, TNA have done their usual masterful job of failing miserably.