All-Time NBA Roster Draft

[Lt. Al Giardello 0]

Me personally, I'd take Thomas over Stockton, but this forum seems to have a hard on for Stockton... Must be the shorts, j/k.

[AboveAverage484 0]

Me personally, I'd take Thomas over Stockton, but this forum seems to have a hard on for Stockton... Must be the shorts, j/k.

 

I don't know, Thomas was more athletic and a better scorer, but Stockton played better D, shot better, and was a better distributor and ball handler. Not to say that Isiah didn't do those things well, it was just that Stock did them REALLY well.

[Lt. Al Giardello 0]

Me personally, I'd take Thomas over Stockton, but this forum seems to have a hard on for Stockton... Must be the shorts, j/k.

 

I don't know, Thomas was more athletic and a better scorer, but Stockton played better D, shot better, and was a better distributor and ball handler.

 

Stockton didn't have the ability to take over an entire game like Thomas did... And to say Stockton was a better ball handler is very arguable. Plus Stockton always had a top 3 greatest power forward ever to compliment him.

 

You tell me which PG can say they beat Magic, Bird, and Jordan in the playoffs?

[Maztinho 0]

Me personally, I'd take Thomas over Stockton, but this forum seems to have a hard on for Stockton... Must be the shorts, j/k.

 

Well I did grow up in Utah, so I have that bias. And really the only thing that I think Thomas did better than Stockton was his pure athleticism, and maybe his driving ability.

 

Stockton was a pass first guy, but he'd usually score in bunches and seemingly at will when the team needed him too. I'm sure someone who is more stat hound savvy than I am can dig up Stockton's 4th quarter scoring average, but it seemed that a majority of Stockton's points would come in the 4th.

 

Careerwise I don't know how you could take Thomas over Stockton since Stock was career assists and steals leader, the first guy to crack 10,000 assists, and had nearly a decade of averaging double digit assists. Nobody even comes close to that.

[AboveAverage484 0]

I will say that at the peak of their abilities, Thomas was probably better, but comparing their careers side by side Stockton gains the upper hand. Meh, it's a wash.

 

And to be fair, Bird was old and hobbled with injuries and Jordan was still relatively inexperienced when the Pistons beat them. However, Magic was at the top of his game when they were swept by the Pistons, so hats off to Isiah for that accomplishment.

[Lt. Al Giardello 0]

Careerwise I don't know how you could take Thomas over Stockton since Stock was career assists and steals leader, the first guy to crack 10,000 assists, and had nearly a decade of averaging double digit assists. Nobody even comes close to that.

 

If Thomas didn't tear his achilles tendon, he would've problay been the 1st one to reach 10,000 assists.

 

Plus you add in Thomas has been on the NBA 1st Team more then Stockton did in less years, and his two NBA rings along with an NBA finals MVP, aswell as him beating Jordan, Bird, and Magic in the playoffs, there is your reason why Thomas is ranked above Thomas. I'm not trying to downplay Stockton's legacy at all, but it seems like most people are biased against Thomas because of what he did outside the court as a person and what he has done as GM/Head Coach instead of focusing on what he did as a player.

 

Plus if you look at most experts ranking the best PG's ever, the majority I've read puts Thomas ahead of Stockton.

[AboveAverage484 0]

Careerwise I don't know how you could take Thomas over Stockton since Stock was career assists and steals leader, the first guy to crack 10,000 assists, and had nearly a decade of averaging double digit assists. Nobody even comes close to that.

 

If Thomas didn't tear his achilles tendon, he would've problay been the 1st one to reach 10,000 assists.

 

Edit: Nevermind, I misread your statement.

 

Also, what a stinker of a game we have on TV right now. This thread is tons more interesting than that right now, ha.

[Maztinho 0]

During Detriot's back to back runs to the title, Stockton had more assists per game than Thomas did. And number of titles doesn't matter at all in this or Robert Horry would have been picked in the first 5 picks.

 

The mere fact that Stockton played as long as he did for such a high level that he did screams volumes about his ability.

 

I'm not even taking into consideration anything Thomas did after leaving the court as a player, but the only thing that Thomas' career has over Stockton's is a couple more All NBA Firsts and a couple of titles. And I've seen some of those "analysis" putting Thomas ahead of Stockton, and the only thing they can come up with is the Finals wins as something that puts Thomas ahead of Stockton.

 

You can't look at their career numbers and reasonably say that Thomas was a better point guard, you can't look at how they defined their teams, and say Thomas was the better guard. He just wasn't. Thomas was could get his own shot a little better, but nobody could pass off the dribble like John Stockton could.

[Lt. Al Giardello 0]

I will say that at the peak of their abilities, Thomas was probably better, but comparing their careers side by side Stockton gains the upper hand. Meh, it's a wash.

 

And to be fair, Bird was old and hobbled with injuries and Jordan was still relatively inexperienced when the Pistons beat them. However, Magic was at the top of his game when they were swept by the Pistons, so hats off to Isiah for that accomplishment.

 

Although Jordan became a smarter basketball player, don't act like Jordan wasn't an absolute beast or the best player in the NBA when the Pistons dominated them in 1987-1988... That year was problay his best year when it came to stats and accomplishments, he won the MVP, Defensive Player of the Year, and averaged 35 PPG. That season ranks as one of the best regular seasons by a player, EVER.

 

And when the Pistons beat the Celtics in 1987-1988, Bird had his best statistical season ever.

[Lt. Al Giardello 0]

During Detriot's back to back runs to the title, Stockton had more assists per game than Thomas did. And number of titles doesn't matter at all in this or Robert Horry would have been picked in the first 5 picks.

 

That's pretty ridiculous to say, as Robert Horry was nothing more then a bench player when he won championships. Although he made clutch shots, he was never the team leader or anything more then the supporting cast. And number of titles DO matter, to say it doesn't is pretty outrageous.

 

And I'm not trying to argue that Stockton isn't a better passer then Thomas.

 

I'm not even taking into consideration anything Thomas did after leaving the court as a player, but the only thing that Thomas' career has over Stockton's is a couple more All NBA Firsts and a couple of titles. And I've seen some of those "analysis" putting Thomas ahead of Stockton, and the only thing they can come up with is the Finals wins as something that puts Thomas ahead of Stockton.

 

Thomas had more PPG then Stockton... And Thomas made the All-Star game more in less years then Stockton.

 

You can't look at their career numbers and reasonably say that Thomas was a better point guard, you can't look at how they defined their teams, and say Thomas was the better guard. He just wasn't. Thomas was could get his own shot a little better, but nobody could pass off the dribble like John Stockton could.

 

Stockton had better passing and defensive numbers, Thomas had better scoring and more awards and accomplishments outside of stats.

[naiwf 0]

Careerwise I don't know how you could take Thomas over Stockton since Stock was career assists and steals leader, the first guy to crack 10,000 assists, and had nearly a decade of averaging double digit assists. Nobody even comes close to that.

 

If Thomas didn't tear his achilles tendon, he would've problay been the 1st one to reach 10,000 assists.

 

I just wanted to say that if Magic didn't get HIV he would have done it first. He was 79 away when he missed 5 years, that was about 6-8 games worth of assists for him.

[AboveAverage484 0]

I will say that at the peak of their abilities, Thomas was probably better, but comparing their careers side by side Stockton gains the upper hand. Meh, it's a wash.

 

And to be fair, Bird was old and hobbled with injuries and Jordan was still relatively inexperienced when the Pistons beat them. However, Magic was at the top of his game when they were swept by the Pistons, so hats off to Isiah for that accomplishment.

 

Although Jordan became a smarter basketball player, don't act like Jordan wasn't an absolute beast or the best player in the NBA when the Pistons dominated them in 1987-1988... That year was problay his best year when it came to stats and accomplishments, he won the MVP, Defensive Player of the Year, and averaged 35 PPG. That season ranks as one of the best regular seasons by a player, EVER.

 

And when the Pistons beat the Celtics in 1987-1988, Bird had his best statistical season ever.

 

You're correct, but Jordan's supporting cast wasn't near as good as it would be a couple years later. You're right about Bird though, I got his "back injury" year mixed up, but Parish was just an average center that year, McHale had some injuries, and D.J. was still good but on the downswing of his career, forcing Bird to carry more of the load. The next year was the straw that broke the camel's back, I guess.

[CanadianChris 0]

I will say that at the peak of their abilities, Thomas was probably better, but comparing their careers side by side Stockton gains the upper hand. Meh, it's a wash.

 

And to be fair, Bird was old and hobbled with injuries and Jordan was still relatively inexperienced when the Pistons beat them. However, Magic was at the top of his game when they were swept by the Pistons, so hats off to Isiah for that accomplishment.

Except that Magic was injured in the third quarter of Game 2 and didn't play for pretty much the rest of the way (and Byron Scott was injured in Game 1 and was out for the series). Not that hard to pick apart a second-string backcourt, even in the championship round. And even so, the games were still quite close.

[Maztinho 0]

Titles mean something, but not when you are evaluating the skill of the player. And total awards, Thomas really doesn't have that many more than Stockton does, he has one more All NBA First, but Stock has like 5 more All-NBA Second. I'll give you the Finals MVP, and a couple more All-Star Ballots, but seriously does a couple more All-Star games overcome most assists and steals by anyone ever?

 

Ever.

 

And keep on bringing up that Stock played more years, that just makes him more awesome. He was a 6'1" guy who played the highest level of basketball for a decade and a half. The only guys who do that are 7 footers or career journeyman. Stockton was playing All-Star or near All-Star basketball for a long, long time.

[Lt. Al Giardello 0]

Titles mean something, but not when you are evaluating the skill of the player. And total awards, Thomas really doesn't have that many more than Stockton does, he has one more All NBA First, but Stock has like 5 more All-NBA Second. I'll give you the Finals MVP, and a couple more All-Star Ballots, but seriously does a couple more All-Star games overcome most assists and steals by anyone ever?

 

And keep on bringing up that Stock played more years, that just makes him more awesome. He was a 6'1" guy who played the highest level of basketball for a decade and a half. The only guys who do that are 7 footers or career journeyman. Stockton was playing All-Star or near All-Star basketball for a long, long time.

 

 

If you want to talk about skills of a player... Stockton didn't have the heart, toughness or the killer instinct that Thomas had. In there respective primes, I have no doubt that Thomas was a better player. Was Stockton a better passer? Yes... Was Stockton a better defender? Yes... But Thomas was a great passer as well, and amazing dribbler with amazing scoring ability. And to top it all off, he had the heart and desire to take over an entire game, ESPECIALLY when it was in the clutch. 16 points in 93 seconds, 25 points in a single quater with a busted up ankle... Those are career defining moments.

 

Of course those defining moments and Thomas's heart and toughness all lead to him have a shorter career then Stockton... It also helped him have 2 more rings, and a Finals MVP over Stockton.

[Gert T 0]

I agree this thread is better than the early game.

 

Basically although Payton may have been a little early for 29, without another pick until about 50, I was worried about the level of PG that would be left at that point.

 

I like Payton over Kidd because of the defensive skills.

 

Stockton v. Thomas................I am a HUGE Jazz fan, and I am biased. If I had a gun to my head I probably take Stockton for the assists and steals. But if people tell me they think Isiah is the 2nd best PG of all-time behind Magic I am not sure I could argue.

 

 

[Gert T 0]

And I hope people keep forgetting one of the greatest players of the game, as he would fit perfectly for the team I'm building.

 

Just to spoil KOAB's party...

 

 

 

Det. Frank, are you sure its not this guy.....

 

 

 

[Lt. Al Giardello 0]

Stockton v. Thomas................I am a HUGE Jazz fan, and I am biased. If I had a gun to my head I probably take Stockton for the assists and steals. But if people tell me they think Isiah is the 2nd best PG of all-time behind Magic I am not sure I could argue.

 

Well neither are the 2nd best PG... That belongs to The Big O...

[Gert T 0]

Sorry, I view Oscar as more of a 2 guard, but I obviously wouldn't argue his credentials.

 

 

[Maztinho 0]

Stockton didn't have heart? Didn't have a killer instinct? Did you ever see the man play? Like _ever_? If the Jazz where down it was _always_ Stockton taking the big shots down the stretch to bring them back into the game. Over and over and over again.

 

 

And you are questioning John Stockton's TOUGHNESS? The 6'1" guy that was setting picks on David Robinson, Hakeem, Shaq, Kareem, Ewing, and every other center to play the game? The guy who set picks so thoroughly that other teams thought he was dirty because he wouldn't give up ground to guys a foot taller? Isiah got unlucky and got hurt, that's sports, but the way you talk you haven't watched John Stockton playing the game of basketball. That dude was tougher than anyone in the game.

 

 

Stockton only scored when his team needed him to score, other than that he was looking to run the offense and pass the ball. Stockton never had to take over a game, he controlled it from tip to final buzzer. Whenever the team needed a two for one, there was Stockton getting in the passing lane and dishing it off to cut a lead down.

 

Thomas might have a game or two where he did something phenominal, Stockton did the incredible so often it was odd when he missed the big shot down the stretch. As for being an amazing dribbler, Stockton never was flashy, but you rarely saw people steal the ball from him.

 

What you are missing in my whole point is that Stockton _could_ score, and did when the team needed him to do so, but he wasn't looking for his shot first. On another team without a primary option. he could have averaged 20 PPG, but he was always looking for the pass first.

 

Thomas is at best the 4th best PG in the history of the game.

 

Magic, Oscar, Stock, Thomas.

 

Thomas won Titles with a better overall team than Stockton ever had. Stockton was paired with Malone for his whole career, but Thomas had better guys around him, and didn't run into peak years Jordan with Scottie at his side in the Finals either.

[Lt. Al Giardello 0]

Stockton didn't have heart? Didn't have a killer instinct? Did you ever see the man play? Like _ever_? If the Jazz where down it was _always_ Stockton taking the big shots down the stretch to bring them back into the game. Over and over and over again.

 

Where did I say Stockton didn't have heart, or a killer instinct? If you READ what I said, I said that he didn't have the heart or the killer instinct on the LEVEL of Isiah Thomas. Please be sure to accurately read my statements before accusing me of stuff I never said. Thank you.

 

And you are questioning John Stockton's TOUGHNESS? The 6'1" guy that was setting picks on David Robinson, Hakeem, Shaq, Kareem, Ewing, and every other center to play the game? The guy who set picks so thoroughly that other teams thought he was dirty because he wouldn't give up ground to guys a foot taller? Isiah got unlucky and got hurt, that's sports, but the way you talk you haven't watched John Stockton playing the game of basketball. That dude was tougher than anyone in the game.

 

Did I question Stocktons toughness? No... I simply said Isiah was tougher. I really think you got all emotional and didn't actually read what I had to say. It takes a different kind of toughness to play with a fractured ankle and break the record of a point total in a single quarter in the NBA finals. Isiah would drive the fucking lane no matter who was in front of him... Kareem, Parish, Moses etc. The only comparable person that plays right now that had the any kind of the same toughness as Isiah had is Allen Iverson.

 

Stockton only scored when his team needed him to score, other than that he was looking to run the offense and pass the ball. Stockton never had to take over a game, he controlled it from tip to final buzzer. Whenever the team needed a two for one, there was Stockton getting in the passing lane and dishing it off to cut a lead down.

 

Isiah scored whenever he wanted to, and when his team needed to... He would turn it up an even extra notch and go absolute apeshit. As evidence when he scored 16 fucking points in 93 seconds to get the Pistons to overtime against the Knicks.

 

Thomas might have a game or two where he did something phenominal, Stockton did the incredible so often it was odd when he missed the big shot down the stretch. As for being an amazing dribbler, Stockton never was flashy, but you rarely saw people steal the ball from him.

 

NO! a game or two where he did something phenominal are ONLY his career defining moments... He made a career around being a fierce competitor and leading his team when they really needed him.

 

What you are missing in my whole point is that Stockton _could_ score, and did when the team needed him to do so, but he wasn't looking for his shot first. On another team without a primary option. he could have averaged 20 PPG, but he was always looking for the pass first.

 

He didn't have the scoring ability as Isiah... He had a better jumpshot sure, but Isiah had a good jumpshot and could drive the lane like no other point guard could. He was 6'1" laying up shots over PF's and C's.

 

Thomas is at best the 4th best PG in the history of the game.

 

Magic, Oscar, Stock, Thomas.

 

Thats your list... good for you. All opinion, no fact set it stone.

 

Thomas won Titles with a better overall team than Stockton ever had. Stockton was paired with Malone for his whole career, but Thomas had better guys around him, and didn't run into peak years Jordan with Scottie at his side in the Finals either.

 

Stockton also had Jeff Malone, Jeff Hornacek, Mark Eaton, Thurl Bailey, Matt Harping, along with an arguable Top 15 player Karl Malone. To go along with a basketball genius in Jerry Sloan calling the plays for Stockton.

 

[Maztinho 0]

Stockton was always going at the biggest guys in the game too. You obviously didn't read what I wrote. Your whole argument is that Isiah was tougher because he got hurt, and played hurt. Wouldn't toughness = durability and being able to play so long without a major injury until he was almost 40?

 

Isiah had a great flourish of points, and was a fierce competitor.

 

So far everything you've said in favor of Isiah is equally true if not more so for John Stockton.

 

Minus-

 

1-Scored a shitload of points fast in one game.

2- Won a Finals MVP

3- Played with a Broken ankle

 

 

Three things.

 

Three.

 

And you think that those are better than a guy who played for half a decade longer, showed consistent productivity over 15 years. Got the most assists ever and most steals. Name a player that more defines a franchise's style and epitomized leadership that John Stockton and the Utah Jazz. Also I love Sloan, but Utah's play calling isn't complex, it's all about execution, and that's what Stockton did, methodically, relentlessly, and impeccably. Pick and Roll, pick and roll, long rebound fast break, pick and roll.

 

Also while Stockton had great players around him, he didn't have them all at once aside from Malone and a few good years with Hornaceck. Jeff Malone was here for what 3 years? He was a solid role player, but not epic. I'm pretty sure Harpring came in the year after Stockton retired, I was in Brazil though, so I can't be positive on that.

 

The Detroit Pistons that Isiah played with had Dumars, Laimbeer, Rodman, Salley, Mahorn. That was over all a stronger team than any Stockton ever played with including the two Finals appearances.

[naiwf 0]

At his best Stockton was a great passer, Isiah was a great passer who could score too. The purpose of this draft is to draft guys in their prime, so the edge should go to Isiah whose peak overshadows Stockton's longevity.

 

career PPG 19.2/13.1, best was 22.9/17.2 both to Thomas

career RPG 3.6/2.7, best 4.5/3.3 again both to Thomas

career APG 9.3/10.5, best 13.9/14.5 both to Stockton

 

I'll take 6 more points and a rebound instead of an extra assist per game.

[Maztinho 0]

Yeah, but how many easy baskets did the Jazz get with Stockton setting a screen on bigger men along the baseline?

 

How many turnovers did he force by taking charges all game? And not Manu Ginobli look at me and I fall down charges, but late 80's getting run over by the power forward running full speed charges? On top of his steals. (I looked it up the steals per game is basically the same.)

 

That's an additional 4-5 possessions that Stockton was getting you a game.

 

Stockton did all the little things on the court that made the team better.

[TheOriginalOrangeGoblin 0]

Sorry for the delay. I'm very happy that this guy is still around:

 

Clyde Drexler, SG/SF

 

First-team NCAA All-American (1983)

Southwest Conference Player of the Year (1983)

10-time NBA All-Star (1986, 1988–1994, 1996, 1997)

All-NBA First Team (1992)

All-NBA Second Team (1988, 1991)

All-NBA Third Team (1990, 1995)

Olympic Gold Medalist (1992)

1 NBA Championship (1995)

Named one of the 50 Greatest Players in NBA History (1996)

Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame Player Inductee (2004)

Oregon Sports Hall of Fame Inducted (2001)

One of only three players in NBA history to have posted career totals of at least 20,000 points, 6,000 rebounds and 6,000 assists

 

[Jorge Gorgeous 0]

Yeah, but how many easy baskets did the Jazz get with Stockton setting a screen on bigger men along the baseline?

 

How many turnovers did he force by taking charges all game? And not Manu Ginobli look at me and I fall down charges, but late 80's getting run over by the power forward running full speed charges? On top of his steals. (I looked it up the steals per game is basically the same.)

 

That's an additional 4-5 possessions that Stockton was getting you a game.

 

Stockton did all the little things on the court that made the team better.

 

I'm going to go with Isiah, but only because your weird anime signature picture bugs me.

 

Seriously though, prime? Isiah. Career? Stockton.

 

And great pick with Clyde. It broke my heart not to take him, but I had to go with the finger roll.

[Jorge Gorgeous 0]

And I hope people keep forgetting one of the greatest players of the game, as he would fit perfectly for the team I'm building.

 

Just to spoil KOAB's party...

 

 

 

Det. Frank, are you sure its not this guy.....

 

 

 

 

 

Or this guy? I'm just saying... let's not jump to conclusions.

 

[Brett Favre 0]

 

Karl Malone.

 

2x NBA MVP (1997, 1999)

11x All-NBA First Team Selection (1989-1999)

2x All-NBA Second Team Selection (1988, 2000)

1x All-NBA Third Team Selection (2001)

3x NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1997-1999)

1x NBA All-Defensive Second Team Selection (1998)

1986 NBA All-Rookie Team

13x NBA All-Star (1988-1998, 2000-2001)

2x NBA All-Star MVP (1989, 1993)

NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team

2nd all-time in points scored

11th all-time in points per game

 

And he's brolic.

[AboveAverage484 0]

Slow day at work, so I'll post my next selection now

 

 

BOB PETTIT

 

11 All-NBA Selections (10 first teams)

2 Most Valuable Player Awards

11 All-Star Game selections

12,849 career rebounds (15th all-time)

20,880 career points (32nd all-time)

26.4 career ppg (7th all-time)

Named one of the NBA's 50 Greatest Players

 

When Bob Pettit came out of college in 1954, no one thought he was talented enough to make it as a professional basketball player. Although he had been a prolific scorer at Louisiana State University, the tall, thin forward was deemed too slight at 200 pounds to survive the pounding of an NBA season. However, the scouts failed to factor in Pettit's willingness to work harder than anyone else on the court in order to succeed.

 

And succeed he did. After 11 years with the Milwaukee and St. Louis Hawks, he retired having become the first player in the league to top 20,000 points. The greatest forward of his era, Pettit was an All-Star in each of his 11 seasons (winning the NBA All-Star game MVP award four times), an All-NBA First Team selection 10 times, and an All-NBA Second Team pick once. He never finished below seventh in the NBA scoring race, and he left the sport with two Most Valuable Player Awards and an NBA championship ring.

 

After Pettit's playing days had ended, rival Bill Russell offered this tribute: "Bob made 'second effort' a part of the sport's vocabulary. He kept coming at you more than any man in the game. He was always battling for position, fighting you off the boards."

 

Russell and Pettit at center and power forward? Yeah, I feel pretty comfortable with my front line.

[CanadianChris 0]

Sorry, I was sure it was my pick. Brain cramp.