Lower the U.S. drinking age?

[cbacon 0]

I kind of see where C-Bacon is coming from, but I can't get behind his everything-for-everyone policy. Maybe I'd be okay with 16-year-olds going down to their local gas station or corner store to buy some beer if I knew the concept of drinking in moderation had been instilled in them, but it all comes back to our culture being so irreparably broken that there's nothing we can do to fix it but keep the status quo and hope for the best, which is unfortunate. My sister's friends' respective moms thought they were being progressive by allowing their daughters to drink at home (and playing bartender when friends were over; I find this not the least bit creepy), but missed the part about making sure that you have to approach this responsibly, and thus ended up raising a pair of falling-down drunks.

 

Yeah, I suppose if your consistently binge drinking with your parents at 16 its probably not a good idea. But I think, in general, kids are less likely to start drinking recklessly once they have the ability to do it if they have learned something about alcohol and drank it with parents, rather than the kid whose parents said "No booze until you're 18! Then you can do what you want and I don't care!"

[Adam 0]

It's 18 in Australia, and we've got no real problems aside from the usual bullshit you get at a club on a Saturday night. The Government here is attempting to convince the public that there is a "binge drinking" problem amongst under 25s.... when "binge drinking" is classified as having four standard drinks or more once a week (which is a normal Saturday night for every person, whether they be old or young, that I know).

 

So in short, drop it to 18.

[At Home 0]

I kind of see where C-Bacon is coming from, but I can't get behind his everything-for-everyone policy. Maybe I'd be okay with 16-year-olds going down to their local gas station or corner store to buy some beer if I knew the concept of drinking in moderation had been instilled in them, but it all comes back to our culture being so irreparably broken that there's nothing we can do to fix it but keep the status quo and hope for the best, which is unfortunate. My sister's friends' respective moms thought they were being progressive by allowing their daughters to drink at home (and playing bartender when friends were over; I find this not the least bit creepy), but missed the part about making sure that you have to approach this responsibly, and thus ended up raising a pair of falling-down drunks.

 

Yeah, I suppose if your consistently binge drinking with your parents at 16 its probably not a good idea. But I think, in general, kids are less likely to start drinking recklessly once they have the ability to do it if they have learned something about alcohol and drank it with parents, rather than the kid whose parents said "No booze until you're 18! Then you can do what you want and I don't care!"

 

That's some pretty inverted logic right there.

[Black Lushus 0]

I guess I just don't understand the logic: Enable someone to do something wrong and they're LESS likely to do it. So if we make rape legal, surely those numbers won't spike?

[EricMM 0]

Oh come off it Black, rape and binge drinking are two different things. At least the reasons behind them are different, one does lead to the other.

[sfaJack 0]

Only drunk people commit rape?

[EricMM 0]

Fallacious argument~!

[Black Lushus 0]

Oh come off it Black, rape and binge drinking are two different things. At least the reasons behind them are different, one does lead to the other.

 

Says the guy that compared learning how to abuse alcohol to learning how to drive a car?

[At Home 0]

I'd believe the whole "illegality is one of the reasons people do things" if there was actual, quantified data to back that up, but there's not. It's a fallacious argument and an ace in the hole that rears its ugly head every time a pothead wants something to be legalized.

 

We'd like our kids to be good decision makers and have plenty of experience, but, from personal experience and speaking from inside the slaughterhouse, those odds are wildly stacked against that possibility. There is a very large gap in maturity from the teen years to the early twenties. It doesn't matter if you know some 18 year old who's pretty mature for his age and some 21 year olds who aren't. As Czech said, our drinking culture is so irreparably damaged that the only choice is to keep the status quo and hope for the best. Tzar's also right, kids are gonna get fucked up legal or not, but it's rather irresponsible to make it legal for obviously inexperienced kids with a shitty sense of judgement to buy dangerous shit.

 

As for the "learning lessons" argument, that's just fucking ridiculous. Learning a lesson comes in the form of arrests, car accidents, and injuries, not from throwing up a couple of times.

 

I've said this before, but kids are pretty stupid. I've made dumb decisions that I regret, but not many teenagers have a good sense of right from wrong. That's just how it is, and lowering the drinking age would make that even worse. The only reason these colleges want to lower the age is so they don't have to deal with security all the time on the campus.

[EricMM 0]

Then someone please explain to me how anything beyond our repressive, puritianical treatment of alcohol doesn't explain our issues with it when other permissive states seem to have less trouble?

[At Home 0]

Oh, well it's obviously because the age limit is 21.

 

"repressive, puritanical"? Right. WE'RE REPRESSING THE YOUTH BY NOT LETTING THEM GET SLOSHED AAAAGH SOMEONE CALL CHE GUEVARA.

 

Would you rather have a drinking culture like Japan, where suicide rates have (by no coincidence) begun to skyrocket in the same way that alcoholism has begun to skyrocket? Where getting drunk is a nightly activity for salary men? Where on the 20th birthday holiday, there are widespread reports of alcohol poisoning deaths?

 

I mean, fuck, I look like a 13 year old Swedish immigrant and I bought 4 handles of vodka from a bakery when I was there.

 

[godthedog 0]

Then someone please explain to me how anything beyond our repressive, puritianical treatment of alcohol doesn't explain our issues with it when other permissive states seem to have less trouble?

we as americans are exceptional consumers. if something is cheap and marketed to us, we will consume the shit out of it. same reason we're so fucking fat, same reason we create most of the world's waste.

 

i'm also not sure that we have a bigger problem with alcohol than other countries. narcotics and whatnot sure, but i don't know about alcohol.

[Guest WhackingCockDick]

Would you rather have a drinking culture like Japan, where suicide rates have (by no coincidence) begun to skyrocket in the same way that alcoholism has begun to skyrocket?

I thought Japan's notably high suicide rate, at least among youth, was related to the rigorous secondary-educational system and culture of shame. I know nothing about Japanese culture, unlike you, so help me out, but I wouldn't be surprised if alcoholism was an outgrowth of the aforementioned. As I understand it, the high school years are so intense that if you make it out alive (literally), college is sort of a letdown before settling into a career as a faceless bureaucrat. Kind of like what we have, but with less variation and to greater extents.

[Guest Vitamin X]

bought 4 handles of vodka from a bakery when I was there.

 

There's about 3 things in this part of the sentence that make me really, really want to visit Japan.

[At Home 0]

Would you rather have a drinking culture like Japan, where suicide rates have (by no coincidence) begun to skyrocket in the same way that alcoholism has begun to skyrocket?

I thought Japan's notably high suicide rate, at least among youth, was related to the rigorous secondary-educational system and culture of shame. I know nothing about Japanese culture, unlike you, so help me out, but I wouldn't be surprised if alcoholism was an outgrowth of the aforementioned. As I understand it, the high school years are so intense that if you make it out alive (literally), college is sort of a letdown before settling into a career as a faceless bureaucrat. Kind of like what we have, but with less variation and to greater extents.

 

That's definitely one of the contributors, no doubt about it. But the high school years are only 4 years long. It's kind of worse when people go into college, because college is supposed to be seen as a break between the rigorousness of high school and a lifetime of monotonous work afterwards. So there are a lot of alcohol-related deaths then, too. Japan's got social problems abound.

[cbacon 0]

I guess I just don't understand the logic: Enable someone to do something wrong and they're LESS likely to do it. So if we make rape legal, surely those numbers won't spike?

 

You seriously don't understand the difference?

 

And your stating that with the premise that drinking is wrong?

[cbacon 0]

Oh come off it Black, rape and binge drinking are two different things. At least the reasons behind them are different, one does lead to the other.

 

Says the guy that compared learning how to abuse alcohol to learning how to drive a car?

 

Not sure what Eric said originally but learning to drive is an appropriate comparison. People don't get licenses unless they've been taught how to drive. If kids are taught to drink responsibly then they're less likely to abuse alcohol.

[At Home 0]

Present some data on that and I'll believe it. The burden of proof is on you, dude. Because there's no way I can wrap my mind around that. You can rhetorically and hypothetically back that up to hell's end, but that doesn't make it any more true in real life.

[Guest WhackingCockDick]

Few people are successfully teaching them, though. Parents who drink too much raise kids who drink too much, because they themselves don't have a clue.

[Black Lushus 0]

Of course I'm not saying the actual act of taking a drink of beer is wrong, but come ON, how many teens just drink a few beers and call it a night?

[At Home 0]

None.

[cbacon 0]

Ok, but either way they'll end up drinking regardless of an age limit.

 

Present some data on that and I'll believe it. The burden of proof is on you, dude. Because there's no way I can wrap my mind around that. You can rhetorically and hypothetically back that up to hell's end, but that doesn't make it any more true in real life.

 

A person is more likely to use something if they're taught how to use it properly. There's nothing hypothetical here. Granted, there are many bad parents that drink a lot and their kids internalize these values. That's a different problem entirely and one that can be addressed by allowing minors to live where they want, free from oppressive violence that is customary among thse sorts of households. These situations are unfortunate, but prohibiting their access to access doesn't solve the problem. Again, if they're drinking with the community, they're less likely to cause harm to themselves and others

 

And actually, the burden of proof is on you since the topic in question is whether we should lower the drinking age, but all of the arguments here defending the status quo are all hypothetical. There's not even any reason to believe that letting kids drink would result in an increase in drinking, since for the most part kids who want to drink can and do get alcohol. Harm reduction and education, it not at home then at school, simply makes more sense. And all these stories about minors hurting themselves with alcohol...you know adults do that all the time as well, right? I think we need to have a rational attitude towards drug use starting from the assumption that a person should have the right to control their own body and drug use.

 

As for minors being stupid or spoiled, I think that's pretty blatant anti-youth prejudice. It's common to denegrate young people and youth culture.

[At Home 0]

Drinking with or without the community doesn't matter. If you have a whole community drinking and getting into car crashes, then you're still drinking and crashing with the community. I don't really see the connection between drinking with a community and causing less harm to yourself and the people around you.

 

There is totally a legitimate reason to assume that allowing kids to drink would increase in drinking. That's just how it works! I can't really break it down more simply that than. It will happen. If it's legal, people will do it because the stigma of having it be illegal in the first place has been removed. Quid pro quo.

 

Sure, a person should have a right to control their own body, but drugs are illegal for a reason, and I don't even think you can disagree with me on this one. They're dangerous to a lot of people, period. Parents feel a very strong responsibility for their children and keeping them safe. There's no good way to approach the subject. Parents don't want their kids to drink, but some know that their kids do, and what are you supposed to say to that? It's just a dangerous thing to put in a kid's hand. I know from experience. Sorry, but the irrationality is from you, saying that everything should be completely legal. That's a fringe opinion, and just leaving things up to people typically doesn't lead to the most optimal destination.

 

And the burden of proof is on you. If you present arguments, you should back them up.

 

"Harm reduction and education" is also pretty ineffective. Most of us have been to DARE, we know what it does and doesn't do for us.

 

Kids want to be social drunks, that's just what it is. I'm 17. I've been to all the high school parties, that's just what it's all about.

 

There's a lot of information about why the age limit is 21 at MADD and why21.org.

[EricMM 0]

You've been to all the highschool parties?

[Jingus 0]

Some claims from why21.org:

 

For almost 40 years, most states voluntarily set their minimum drinking age law at 21. But at the height of the Vietnam War in the early 1970s, 29 states began lowering their drinking age to more closely align with the newly reduced military enlistment and voting age. And of those 29 states, no uniformity in age limits—drinking ages varied from 18 to 20 and sometimes even varied based on the type of alcohol being consumed (e.g. 18 for beer, 20 for liquor).

 

The results of this “natural experiment” were fairly immediate and hard to miss: The decrease in the drinking age brought about an increase in alcohol traffic fatalities and injuries. So much so that, by 1983, 16 states voluntarily raised their drinking age back to 21—a move that brought about an immediate decrease in drinking and driving traffic fatalities incidents.

I'd really like some hard numbers about those alleged changes in rates of DUI fatalities. I searched around a little bit, but couldn't find any organized data. That's the sort of hard proof which would back up some of these hypothetical arguments, either way.

 

Of course, this same website also claims that European youths have higher rates of alcoholism and binge drinking than Americans do. It's not exactly unbiased.

[bob_barron 0]

Of course I'm not saying the actual act of taking a drink of beer is wrong, but come ON, how many teens just drink a few beers and call it a night?

 

Maybe I know people who aren't stupid, but when I was a teenager, a lot of the people I know who drank, never drank just to get drunk and shitfaced.

 

I think it should be 18 or 19, having it at 21 is just backwards.

[cbacon 0]

If you have a whole community drinking and getting into car crashes, then you're still drinking and crashing with the community. I don't really see the connection between drinking with a community and causing less harm to yourself and the people around you.

 

Communities get together and get drunk all the time. Doesn't mean its going to result in more car crashes if you lower the drinking age. Surely you can see that kids sneaking booze into the woods would be more dangerous if didn't have the sort of restrictions that prohibits their access.

 

There is totally a legitimate reason to assume that allowing kids to drink would increase in drinking. That's just how it works! I can't really break it down more simply that than. It will happen. If it's legal, people will do it because the stigma of having it be illegal in the first place has been removed. Quid pro quo.

 

Again, the burden of proof is on you to prove that. Because all evidence from other countries says this isn't the case. "It will happen" isn't a convincing argument and kids still access alcohol anyway.

 

Sure, a person should have a right to control their own body, but drugs are illegal for a reason, and I don't even think you can disagree with me on this one. They're dangerous to a lot of people, period.

 

This is a contradictory statement. You can't say people should have the right to control their own body if we're going put restrictions on it. Criminalizing something that there is a large market for does not work, period. Sure, many drugs are dangerous, which is why harm reduction and education are essential. And really, combating drugs has little to do with stopping the flow of drugs, but more to do with controlling inner-city populations.

 

"Harm reduction and education" is also pretty ineffective.

 

Tell that to the countries in Europe, Australia and in Vancouver that have effective drug rehabilitation programs, including safe injection sites for drug addicts.

 

Kids want to be social drunks, that's just what it is. I'm 17. I've been to all the high school parties, that's just what it's all about.

 

And this is the case for many adults too.

 

That website didn't provide any convincing arguments, just more reason for increasing enforcement. It promotes nothing more than a police state and works on the assumption that kids need to be controlled.

[Guest Vitamin X]

I do believe the claim about Europeans is probably true. Having enough interactions with European-born folks and their experiences here and abroad have confirmed that, at least from my little personal bubble.

[Black Lushus 0]

Of course I'm not saying the actual act of taking a drink of beer is wrong, but come ON, how many teens just drink a few beers and call it a night?

 

Maybe I know people who aren't stupid, but when I was a teenager, a lot of the people I know who drank, never drank just to get drunk and shitfaced.

 

 

And all the ones that I knew in my day and know of now (through my siblings and my wife's siblings/cousins) did...if we wanted to go that route with this discussion, we'd be going around and around all day.

 

I'd bet my salary that if someone did a real tried and true survey of teens, the amount of knucklehead drinkers would far outweigh the amount of responsible drinkers. So until we get that, this whole conversation is moot anyway.

 

As someone said earlier, they raised the age limit for a reason, so why screw around with it at this point?

[Guest Vitamin X]

I think I would also beat my (admittedly meager at this point) salary that the amount of knucklehead drinkers among people over 21 also outweigh the amount of responsible drinkers, if you want to argue that point. But that's another one you could keep going around and around with all day.