WrestleMania Roundtable Part Five: 2005 to present

[King Kamala 0]

Alright, welcome to the fifth part of our six part series covering the past, present, and perhaps future(?) of WrestleMania. This week, we're covering the last four editions of the biggest event in sports entertainment. But before we start, let's introduce our panelists...

 

Alkeiper: TSM moderator and resident baseball expert.

Smues: President of the Anchorage Chapter of the Nicholas Cage Fan Club.

King Kamala: Leader of these shindigs.

Bob Barron: Stalker

Mattdotcom: Founding member of Team Dog Abuse.

 

Featuring special guest commentator

Dr. Venkman PhD: Four time roundtable alternate.

 

 

WrestleMania 21

 

Alkeiper: Wrestlemania 21 I find difficult to sum up in context, it was the show meant to make Batista but he stalled due to injury and never quite made the jump to mega stardom. The highlight of the show seemed to be Money In the Bank, and I remember my feed of Edge's victory interrupted by the cable company running a scroll of a flood watch in the area. Undertaker/Orton featured a hot ending sequence. Cena/JBL was quite underwhelming for what it should have been.

 

Smues: WM21. Good to great show, but way too much filler. On the collection disc the first side just flys by and is awesome. Then you flip the disc and it takes TWENTY minutes to get to a match, and THIRTY to get to a real match, and not just the sumo garbage. MITB1 is a classic and defined the match. Just a nonstop fun 15 minute spot fest, only marred by JR calling it a 16 foot ladder when Kane is barely shorter than it. Benoit selling his injuries all match was a nice touch, and Edge winning in typical Edge fashion was a good step to his main event career. Angle vs Michaels is also a classic, and makes me realy miss WWE Kurt Angle. It's 25 minutes+ of intensity, and the only negative thing I can say about it is Michaels was in the Anglelock for TWO minutes before tapping, and given it was 25 minutes into the match I don't buy that he could hold out that long. But anyway great fucking match. The title matches, while it's nice they were building new stars, are both pretty disappointing, especially the Cena match. And after HHH gets a 5 minute entrance jamming with Motorhead the crowd is drained and doesn't seem to give a shit for Batista's mundane entrance. And like I said, filler filler filler. Too many WWE hollywood spots that weren't as good as they should have been, and the sumo match. I'll admit to actually liking watching sumo on ESPN, but this wasn't sumo, this was stupid. Overall it's a really good show not dragged down too bad, but you could cut close to an hour of filler without losing anything, and the peak of the show is Michaels/Angle and it's all down hill from there. Oh and I need to mention the JBL $100 bills, those were awesome.

 

King Kamala Classic: I really enjoy this show. Borderline Top 5 'Mania for me. Though it's a rare recent 'Mania where the undercard overshadows the main events. Both Cena/JBL and Batista/Triple H have have had better matches on other shows though they're certainly not terrible matches. I think the first Money In The Bank is the definitive one and has yet to be topped, Taker/Orton is another one of Taker's fine Mania efforts in this past decade (well, let's just ignore his bouts at XIX and 22), and HBK/Angle is my match of the night. Absolute classic. Eddie Vs Rey Rey isn't half as good as their WCW matches but a fine opener nonetheless.Like Smues said, as a show to pass the torch to the new generation of WWE superstars I'm not sure it worked entirely as Batista and Cena surely didn't look like definite superstars that night but obviously, it didn't hurt them really at all.

 

One thing I don't like about this show is it started a trend of eschewing secondary title matches. Not having the IC or Tag Team titles defended on a Mania show has always kind of bothered me.The Intercontinental title hasn't been defended on Mania since X8! Though I guess that might change this year. As a bonus, The Hogan Knows Best episode set at The Hall of Fame induction ceremony and WrestleMania 21 is one of my favorites. Yes, I admit it's pretty pathetic that I have favorite episodes of Hogan Knows Best. We got to see The Hulkster's ass cheeks in that one. Terrifying

 

Bob Barron: This was a two-match show. The MITB is fantastic, and Edge got a huge rub from it and it helped propel him to superstardom. Angle v. HBK is amazing, and one of my favourite matches. It tells a great story, and it's a match you can nitpick all you want, but it's awesome. Rey v. Eddy had the potential to be really good, but Rey's stupid mask. The two title matches are awful. HHH v. Batista was 20 minutes when it didn't have to be. Cena v. JBL is a straight wrestling match from two guys who would not be ideal candidates to have a straight wrestling match. Plus, it just ends. He hits the FU out of nowhere. I remember we thought the FU was the beginning of the hot nearfall finish, and it just ends. 10 months of Honky Tonking with the world title and it ends like that? I also hated that the opening video package was another movie spoof. And Trish owns this show.Orton v. Taker is really good. Orton should've gone over except that he was out for 4 months afterwards so it made sense for the Deadman to win

 

Mattdotcom: First off, there's no shame in having a favorite episode of Hogan Knows Best. So one year after "it all begins again", 'Mania goes Hollywood, and they replace the dark and serious Blassie-esque promos with the mostly awesome and definitely memorable movie parody trailers. It works for the show, which looking back is a pretty upbeat experience. Earlier today, I was discussing the booking of WM IV in the WWE Multimedia folder (congrats on that DrVenk) and how the heel favoring finishes are what kill the show rather than the time. I might be wrong, but this is the only WM where two faces win both titles from dominant heel champs, not to mention The Undertaker triumphing over the Ortons. This one is the definition of sending the people home happy.. MITB is a concept that still works today, thanks in part to the excellent match here and also to the following months with Edge's antics. I'm not one to lavish praise on Chris Benoit nowadays, but he turned it up a notch here and biting the ring apron to sell his pain is one of those little things that we fans only get to appreciate every blue moon.

 

I agree that the JBL/Cena match was a disappointment. Both title matches are underminded by the rematches that followed being miles above anything here. Although, HHH dropping the title two years in a row was pretty unexpected. The only thing really worth discussing about HHH/Batista anyways is the buildup and the thumbs down angle.Sadly, this is Eddie's last Mania. I consider his match at XX one of my all time favorites. The match here is quite good too. Heel Trish was unbelievable. Jericho's book mentions how great a heel Finlay was in Europe and considering he was in charge of the women, I suspect Trish learned about antagonizing a lot from him. Oh god I didn't mention Angle/Michaels and I just watched it. It's a fantastic match.I love the little touch, mostly on commentary, that Charles Robinson may be a tad biased since he is a SmackDown ref. It's also one of the only Angle matches where the German off of the apron spot works because watching it live, you're caught up in the match and you think "Well, it IS Shawn Michaels at WrestleMania. He might just take it"

 

Smues: I forgot to mention Lemmy forgetting most of the lyrics to his own song.

Mattdotcom: I AM THE GAME NO WAY YOU CAN PLAY ME I AM THE GAME YOU KNOW YOU CANT PLAY ME

Smues: "Mumble mumble mumble mumble ready to run. Mumble blah mumble mumble TO RUN!"

Alkeiper: HHH/Batista was dull last time I saw it

Bob Barron: Cena v. JBL is just JBL punching him and Cena gets the FU out of nowhere. There's no build. This ten month title reign where he found new ways to sneak out with his title ends like that. It was such a great feud to.

Smues: Oh and I forgot to mention Raw champion HHH treating Smackdown champion JBL like a joke early in the show. Seemed odd

Bob Barron: Yea, HHH v. Big Dave sucks. It should've been Big Dave killing him, not HHH beating him down

Mattdotcom: Agree or disagree: In retrospect, considering the WHC match was the first in a "trilogy" (I hate to use that word), would the booking have been more effective in creating a new star/Mania moment if it had been a squash match for Batista?

King Kamala Classic:That's another weird sort of trend for recent Manias...the rematches to the World title matches at Mania being better than the Mania matches.

Bob Barron: Yes, I think Batista should've just destroyed him and you could do a fun garbage match with JBL v. Cena if you don't want the fans to feel ripped off

Mattdotcom: It would have given more time to Cena/JBL too. And Cena is more important to the company than Batista

King Kamala Classic: Cena/JBL had to be one of the shorter World title matches in Mania history

Bob Barron: Cena trying to put it over like this big moment when no one cares is great

Smues: the triple threat that we'll talk about in a few minutes was pretty short too

King Kamala Classic Triple Threat match at 22 I think takes the cake though

Mattdotcom: Criminally short

 

 

WrestleMania 22

 

alkeiper :WM 22 brought the show back to Chicago with a great atmosphereI think Edge/Foley stands out in retrospect as the most memorable match. Insane, crazy bumps. Lita bleeding. Edge falling into thumbtacks. And Lita nearly throwing up at the smell of burnt skin just sells it. Watching it again though, I had an uncomfortable feeling about the whole thing. I mean, isn't it going too far? Cena/HHH is sure to spark some discussion about how HHH buried Cena in interviews, I'm steering clear of that.Others will mention the triple threat match. Let me state before I finish that Kane's entrances from WM 20-23 are generally awesome

 

Smues: Despite WM22 being a solid show, the main thing I think of when I think of it is awful entrances/outfits. What the fuck was rey wearing when he came to the ring? Who the hell thought Cena with a Tommy gun was a good idea? And what in the holy hell were they thinking with the whole HHH debacle. The whole coming up through the floor in a throne with crown, fur, and other things I’m forgetting while KING OF KINGS plays wasn’t ridiculous enough, he’s got a cheap ass bottle of water with him that looks like it cost him $.59 cents at a 7/11. Whatever it was they were going for was ridiculous enough, and the water bottle kills it anyway. CONAN LIKE DASANI. Outside of that, you’ve got one epic WM moment match in the hardcore match, and one good to great match in the main event, and a handful of other decent to good matches. Money in the bank isn't as good as the first, but I still liked it. And the crowd was popping like mad for everything. the triple threat is good it's just criminally short. Michaels vs Vince is ok I guess, but it's way too long, and serves no purpose. Whoopdy shit A multiple time world champion can take out a 60 year old non wrestler. Excitement she wrote. Oh and he can take out the Spirit Squad too. WHOOOOOOOO.

 

This show was also firmly into the WM HOF era, and it was the first ceremony where I bothered to watch the whole thing, just to see Bret's speech. Good stuff and it's awesome they got him to do it. It's a little lame though at the inductions at the actual show they rip on Bret a bit, considering he didn't have to do the whole thing in the first place. It's also sad that 3 years later 2 inductees are dead (granted one already was) and another is a murderer. Skip the ceremony or you're honoring a murderer people. Don't do it!And Lastly I want to say one last thing about the hardcore match. It's great, inovative, and it's just amazing how Foley constantly comes up with new and original spots and isn't just repeating himself. The spear through the flaming table is a great visual. The only complaint I have is the announcing. I don't get why people like Joey Styles, I can't stand him. And I think he takes away a lot from the match. Some examples include "Edge is tied in the tree of woe. OH WOE IS EDGE", "Foley tries to nearly ‘decapinate’ the rated-r superstar" and "Spear spear edge hit the spi". Glad to know he hit the spi. And his OH MY GAWWWDDDDD is just so stupid sounding and dampens an awesome moment in the table spot. anyway good but not great show, but nothing offensive or anything to drag it down.

 

King Kamala Classic: Again, like basically every WrestleMania since XX, another good to great show. I think of all of them though, this is the one I'm least enthusiastic about. I have to attribute it to the main event(s). As alluded to, the Triple Threat match is criminally short and began the Worst World title run since Diesel and Triple H/Cena was a good, perhaps even great match but it was hard to get worked up over a match between the two least liked guys amongst the IWC at that time. Really, the frequent mentions of Eddie in the lead up to the Triple Threat were downright shameful. The aforementioned silly entrances also sort of weaken the main events I'll agree with al that Edge/Foley steals the show here. Great way to give Foley one last memorable Mania match (well I hope it's his last Mania match. Dude should hang up the flannel) and to put Edge over as a bonafide superstar. HBK/Vince as all Vince WM matches is a good garbage match but led to that godawful DX/McMahons feud that ranks as one of my least favorite feuds since Vince Russo era WCW. I'm getting mad just thinking about it. I also enjoyed The WWE Hall of Fame ceremony that year. How great it was to see a legend like The Fridge finally get inducted. Kidding aside, Bret Hart's speech was fantastic.

 

I'll take a second to agree with Smues RE: Joey Styles. I didn't even really like him all that much in ECW so I really didn't care for the toned down version that we saw in WWE. Props to him for knocking out JBL a couple months back and I also saw him shilling a Millenium Silver Dollar on late night TV back in the day and marked out huge. That's neither here nor there.But yeah Money In The Bank was pretty good but nothing immedietely witty or insightful is coming to mind to say about it other than how odd it was to see Flair in a garbage match. Lastly, I'm sure sometime in the future, when CM Punk is a heel, a wiseass babyface will show footage of him in the gangster getup behind Cena on the Titantron during a feud and Punk will seethe and hillarity will ensue!

 

Bob Barron: Wrestlemania 22 is a fine show. Everyone was slagging it big time leading up, so it was nice to see them put on a good show. Edge v. Foley is brutal, even though it's essentially Orton v. Foley with Lita and a cooler ending. I liked that both Edge and Foley won the feud, Edge beat the Hardcore Legend and Foley got his Wrestlemania Moment. Trish v. Mickie is amazing, from the crowd turning on Mickie, to Mickie grabbing Trish's vag to counter a move and then doing the V symbol. They almost had the match of the night. I don't even mind the botched finish since it fits into the story of the match with Trish's knee.The triple threat match has a great 9 minute buildup for 20 minute match, only it goes 9 minutes. It's weird how Angle was the most protected in the match, given he'd be gone in a few months later. Rey doesn't look good in the match at all, and he doesn't even get to pin the champ. The crowd booing him but then realising they have to cheer when he wins is hilarious.Cena v. HHH is fantastic. It def has that WM big match feel with the crowd reactions. It's a well worked match and it was cool seeing Cena get the win and that fan flip out. Plus, CM Punk makes his Wrestlemania debut! I was marking out like crazy for that. Also, them introducing Vickie Guerrero for the Hall of Fame was a great moment. HBK nailing Vince with the bullhorn is hilarious. Probably the weakest MITB.

 

Mattdotcom: Historical Mania here, as this is the first show I was able to watch later on thanks to a burdgeoning website at the time called YouTube. It's a pretty weird show, in retrospect. I don't think the tag title match is even worth mentioning. It's two thrown together teams: the old big guys and the new guys. I'm pretty sure they were both broken up by May. May 19th to be specific. I'll admit to being a huge RVD mark, so his winning MITB (even if it isn't as good as the original) is one of my personal favorite moments, so I'm behind the show at this point. Flair was coming off the ladder match with Edge, so his inclusion wasn't that strange. Scary exit, though. JBL going over Benoit was odd at the time, since his retirement seemed to be iminent. Makes his IC title win a little less strange now.

 

Foley himself considers the Edge match to be his one true WrestleMania moment. It's a fantastic piece of ultraviolence. Interestingly enough, both this match and MITB led indirectly into ECW One Night Stand/the ECW revival. Well, it would be interesting if either of those had meant anything in the long run. Still, Lita calling Tommy Dreamer the "Innovator of Silence" was totally worth it, but I digress. And by digress, I mean I skip the Boogeyman/T Family crap. Trish/Mickie is probably the best woman's match they've ever had, regardless of it being on WrestleMania. I know a lot of people complain about the botch at the end, where Trish's knee buckles when Mickie tries the Stratusfaction, so she has to win with a Chick Kick. I'd argue that, despite the error, it adds to the storyline of the match, making it turn from "Mickie wants to be just like Trish" to "Mickie CAN'T be Trish, but she can beat her". The only real complaint about the match is that they cut Mickie's infamous Vaginal Claw+Lick. Lesbian overtones should never be cut from anything. Undertaker/Henry is skippable. Probably the weakest Taker Mania match of the Streak era. I hate McMahon matches nowadays, but the true WrestleMania moment is JR's overblown commentary when McMahon comes out. I should have written it down. I believe it goes "This man is genuinely the most evil man in history. When he dies, he is going to Hell and Satan bettter watch out because McMahon will take over HELL." Seeing the WHC triple threat fall flat is such a downer. Rey's a longtime favorite of so many fans, myself included. No one ever thought this would happen, and they bog it down with the Eddie Memorial booking and forced Orton into the equation just to get him on the card. He could have taken Finlay or Flair's place in MITB. It's too late to rebook though. It's at this point that the show is pretty weird, like I was saying.Cena/HHH is a smark's wetdream, not only because Cena is reduced to tears by the reaction at the end but CM Punk debuts! This was before he was buried every week, ya know. At this point, Trips has jobbed three times in a row, so my question is, do you guys feel he is redeemed for the brainfart that was the WM XIX match with Booker T?

 

Bob Barron: No, because he booked a feud where the racist one in dominating matter!

Smues: No. HHH tapping to benoit was like my favorite moment ever, and even that couldn't redeem it. Yeah it's a good thing HHH jobbed at a few Wrestlemanias, but it doesn't excuse all the racial bullshit with the booker T one, controlling the match, AND the pedigree of 25 second death.

Bob Barron: I remember watching the three-way and thinking that if they keep it up, this is easy a ***** MOTYC and then it ends

King Kamala Classic: yeah, definitely "Is that it?" reaction when it ended. I was actually not against the idea of Rey being champion but woah boy was his reign bad.

Smues: The Eddie Guerrero memorial title run was a flop

Bob Barron: There was no reason to book Angle as Superman if he wasn't going to take the fall

Mattdotcom: One last thing that I find weird about this show: look it up on Wikipedia. The poster is just BAD.

Bob Barron: CM Punk's smirk makes the show

Alkeiper: the entrances are generally embarassing, Cena redeemed himself at WM 24 though

Mattdotcom: CM Punk doesn't drink or smoke but he has a tommy gun?!

Bob Barron: No drugs, sex, alcohol but tommy guns yes!

Mattdotcom: This show is such a waste for Mr. WrestleMania but I'm hardpressed to think of anyone else he could have been booked against

Bob Barron: Hmmmm.... HBK in MITB would've been cool

Smues: I forgot to mention the Taker match. Yeah that sucked and probably his worst WM match behind giant gonzalez, and maybe Bundy.

Bob Barron: I don't mind when Taker faces scrubs for WM, since I hate the streak. Might as well make it an obvious match

Smues: Has there been a casket match ever besides maybe RR98 that didn't suck?

Mattdotcom: The Tombstone is impressive though

King Kamala Classic: hmmm...let me think...I'm inexplicably a mark for casket matches even if they're almost all terrible. I just love the spot where they open the casket to throw the opponent in and someone else pops out. Always cracks me up for some reason.

Smues: Sure, outside of the outfits, and yeah it's still a good show, but there's not a whole lot that's memorable to keep talking about wm22. It's just a show that's there

King Kamala Classic: good show but not particularly memorable outside of Foley/Edge and the zany entrances for me

 

WrestleMania 23

 

alkeiper : Wrestlemania 23 moved the show back to a large stadium. I remember many were skeptical, but they filled Ford Field. This was a terrific show. Cena/Michaels was a classic, Taker/Batista delivered a good match. Money in the Bank delivered. The only big negative for me is that Umaga vs. Lashley with the Trump/McMahon story bombed

Smues: Great show. Two great matches (main event and MITB). Actually make that three, with UT/Batista. Plus a bunch of decent to good ones. And the only stinkers were Kane/Khali and the women's match. MITB had a ton of awesome little touches like Booker T finding the tiny ladder. and Hardy sacrificing himself to take out Edge. Great stuff. Take/Batista was low in the card which people bitched about after the fact, but really most of us were expecting it to suck, and had no idea it was going to be so great. Top to bottom just a great card and a fun show.

 

Now to spend the rest of my print on my favorite part, the backstage skit with Cryme Tyme. I don't know why I love it so much, but I could watch this on an endless loop to the end of time. Cryme Tyme cheering up Eugene with some hoes, then Slick shows up, then dusty rhode, then more people than I can remember. Slaughter, Brisco, IRS, Mean Gene, I think Heenan is there, Jimmy Hart, it's just markout city. An then of course Steamboat, and finally Ron Simmons. Just awesome. Yeah it's a two minute skit, and the show had some rocking matches, but I'm wierd and just loved this segment to death. Only negative thing I'll say about the show is I thought the 'all grown up' thing was stupid. It makes me think of that stupid "Rugrats in highschool' show, and it's not like WM3 had all the people on WM23 as kids or something. Oh, and Aretha Franklin singing America the beautiful. Holy christ. Did she eat the girl who sang it at WM22? Wow!

Bob Barron I thought that was Viscera singing America the Beautiful

 

King Kamala Classic: Really great show, terrific atmosphere. The two World title matches really delivered. Both were great in their own separate ways. Those would have been more than enough to solidify this one as a good Mania but MITB is also very very good to being the best like Smues said, some great small touches in this one. Some great storytelling. Genoa/MVP was a bit of a disappointment but a solid enough match but I loved seeing 70,000 people BALLIN' (sounds a bit gay)The only real disappointment with the show was Umaga Vs Lashley. Umaga so far in his short WM career is the opposite of HBK as he always brings the suck at Mania. Sure, I didn't expect either of his matches to be Steamboat/Flair but I expected them to be half decent power contest and they just flat out stunk. That Trump/McMahon angle really fell flat because Trump's lack of enthusiasm towards doing a rasslin angle really showed.) Kane/Khali was probably the worst match of the night but it was a bit better than expected and we all wanted to see a Giant get slammed on the 20th Anniversary of WrestleMania 3, baby! And like Smues, The WrestleMania Dance Party sketch cracks me up. One of the better fluff backstage segments in recent memory. And it was probably even more bizarre to see Flair in a pre-show match than it was to see him in Money In The Bank.

 

Bob Barron: Wrestlemania 23 is a good show. My friends were there which made me insanely jealous of them. They really loaded up MITB that year to the point that it was too much. A great match, Matt Hardy really shined and Jeff legally killed Edge. Too bad Kennedy never went anywhere. Batista v. Taker is fantastic and better than it had any right to be, especially given how terrible Batista was since his comeback. Cena v. HBK is also terrific, and I was happy Cena won. The Trump angle probably didn't work as well as they wanted, with Trump botching the stunner. But weeks of: isn't Bobby great cracked me up to no end. Seeing Dreamer, Sabu, and Sandman get to shine at WM was also a nice little moment. Benoit v. MVP is too short, but it tells a great little story in the time allotted, really an underrated gem. I interviewed Donald Trump right after Wrestlemania, and I really wanted to ask him about Wrestlemania. Instead I asked him about winning an award for donating parkland. Jerry Lawler's I don't want to be here at all Hall of Fame speech is classic too

 

Mattdotcom: "We love ya, Bobby!" were the words of encouragement that propelled Bobby Lashley, whom his wealthy owner Donald Trump inexplicably thought was named "Bobby Lindsay", to victory over the Samoan Savage whom Mr. McMahon had forced to do battle for him. The match was stupid and marked the decline of Shane O Mac's abilities to do a shitty Van Terminator. It was also born out of some awful segments on Raw, such as O'Donnell vs Trump and The Donald's bored Titantron promos. Nothing like a wealthy man on a giant screen. Other than the near hour that (plus the Ashley miscarriage of a match and the ECW match that was topped on a free TV show that no one watches) this eats up, everything else is pretty damn good. Taker/Batista is THE match that shouldn't have been good but delivered. Cena/Michaels is a great match. I like it better than the almost-an-hour Raw match. I loved the epic return of the Dragon at the climax of the dance party. You guys pretty much covered MITB. It's only marred by the fact that Kennedy won and (luckily) never used the briefcase. MVP's entrance is one of the best of all time. I want to love the match with Benoit, especially since it does tell a neat little story given its short nature, but I don't think I got to see it until after the Benoit situation. I think it's worth noting that WrestleMania weekend brought an absurd amount of money into Detroit.

 

Bob Barron: They could use it now

Mattdotcom: Leading to today where we have cities going after Mania like they're trying for the Olympics

King Kamala Classic: I'm personally campaiging for Mania 27 to take place at The Cumberland County Civic Center in Portland, Maine. I'll even let some of the guys stay at my house to save on lodging.

Bob Barron It beats Hartford!

Dr. Venkman PhD Hey gang, just wanted to do a run in for Mania 23 as I was there live. I could not believe it when I read reports about how unlively the crowd was. I had to go to work the next day and had absolutely no voice... and the venom we all showed towards Batista and John Cena was amazing. I've been to Raw, SmackDown, house shows, Survivor Series, and a Royal Rumble... but none of that compares to a WrestleMania. Just waiting for Ford Field to open was an experience. News crews, vendors, people in homemade "Cena Sucks" t-shirts (with a picture of HBK superkicking him on the back), people going nuts.

Bob Barron: Oh yea. At WM XX, when Fink said: WELCOME TO WRESSSSSSSSSSSSTLEMAAAAAAAAAAANIA I got goosebumps. I knew it was totally worth it no matter what happened

Dr. Venkman PhD: The show itself... well, my view on the show is rather biased, but I thought it was great. Khali vs Kane sucked, Ashley vs. Melina sucked, and Flair working a dark match was a crime against wrestling.

Mattdotcom: Flair doesn't even get the finish. Carlito wins it for the team. I can't believe Carlito gives all those interviews saying he hates to wrestle and then someone like HHH talks about passion and every year Carlito makes it onto the card.

Dr. Venkman PhD But MITB 3, Batista/Taker, and HBK/Cena were excellent and made the show.I was really fearing Batista/Undertaker too, so kudos to them for getting pissed off over not closing the show and trying to steal it. And who didn't mark out for the barber chair having it's own entrance? Oh yeah, I have to mention this guy sitting in front of me at Mania 23: http://farm1.static.flickr.com/219/4444083...b271aaae1_o.jpg

Mattdotcom: YES

Smues: Nice jacket

King Kamala Classic: wow. incredible

Smues: And as someone who has also been to a Wrestlemania yeah nothing else compares. WM19 wasn't even my first PPV but it blows away normal PPVs.

Dr. Venkman PhD: Live, there was a spot with Booker T I missed where he pulls out a step ladder and gets flustered. So it was nice to see on DVD.

Smues: yeah the mini ladder was awesome

Bob Barron: I like Hardy threatening Sharmell to goad Booker

Mattdotcom: Booker T rules at getting frustrated

Smues: As was Booker despite being a heel giving up his chance to win for his wife

 

WrestleMania 24

 

Alkeiper: We got Ric Flair's retirement match, John Cena's kickass band entrance, Edge/Undertaker and killer fireworks, CM Punk winning money in the bank, and Mayweather/Show. I think it's a good show, but nothing tremendously overwhelms me about it

 

Smues: WM24 is probably the weakest WM for since 18. It's still good, but no more than that. Nothing really awful, but no real blow away matches. UT/Edge is the closest thing they've got and it's great but not epic. And the ECW title thing was bizarre. That said, I love the atmosphere outside, it reminds me of WM9 but with a good card. And rain on the camera sometimes too, which is kind of annoying. Thi is also the only WWE show that I know of available in HD, and of course I had to get it in blu-ray. Outside of the WWE logo being like 20% of the way into the screen and not on the side it looks amazing and helps make the show more appealing I think. CM Punk winning MITB was nice and actually lead to something, but the match itself was just ok, not great. Oh and the boxing match was pretty lame, but not like a terrible WCW boxing match or anything, and at least better than the sumo match. And as noted, Cena's marching band entrance is possibly the best entrance ever. Just awesome.

 

King Kamala Classic: I'm with Smues. Mildly underwhelming Mania. A lot of good matches. Heck, virtually everything except the women's match and Batista/Umaga is at least decent (I hardly count Chavo/Kane as a match). Taker, of all people, once again puts on one of the best matches of the night. Cena's entrance is fantastic, Flair's exit was good. Though in retrospect, I'm not sure if the final days of his career were how I would have done things if they inexplicably decided to hand me the book. I love the look of outdoor Manias. I really wish they could do it more often. I've always thought they should do SummerSlam at a smaller MLB park like Fenway or PNC Park in Pittsburgh but I guess that's a thought for The SummerSlam roundtable

 

Bob Barron: Wrestlemania 24 is a really good show. Finlay-JBL is a fun garbage match although Finlay losing is kind of messed up. MITB is great, and I was going crazy for Punk and then he won! Batista-Umaga has Regal saying YOUMANGA. The crowd going: U-U-U-MAGA should've become a new chant.Flair v. HBK is really good, but not this all time classic people like to play it is. Watching the IWC play the who can get more emotional card re: Flair's retirement was always good for a laugh. The three-way is an awesome match, really underrated. I loved it when I saw it on 24-7. The finish is perfect and puts Orton over tremendously.Show-Mayweather is alright. Mayweather doesn't exactly do anything, but Mayweather's handlers make me laugh. Taker v. Edge is a great match. Watching it live, I didn't care, since I hate Undertaker, love Edge and knew Taker was going to win but the match slowly sucked me in and I really got into it. Taker v. Edge was really VINTAGE UNDERTAKER. Kane v. Chavo is hilarious, I could watch it all day. I would not have wanted to be near Vince when the lights went out. King's crack about Taker was funny. Cena's entrance rules.

 

Mattdotcom: With all the debate over the quality of the build up this year, there's only one thing I can talk about when it comes to 24. The promo that Flair cut when he brought out the NWA title was the best money promo I've heard in years because it was the single defining factor in my friend and I purchasing the show live on PPV. It was the first time we'd done so in eight years. It didn't disappoint. The opening shot of the stadium was breathtaking. Sadly, the opener falls flat. JBL nailed Hornswoggle with a trashcan. That's about all that's worthwhile. He probably shouldn't have won the match, especially since it was the opener, but it happened. Since it turned out he was going to be getting pushed for nearly a year straight, I guess it worked out.Moving on, John Morrison hits a moonsault while HOLDING a ladder. I love Morrison in this MITB, especially when he tries climbing the ladder that's wedged in to another. I hated how they did a repeat of the ladder breaking in half, though. All the new stuff they tried makes the match work, not the rerun spots. Besides, nothing's scarier than Shelton's slip up after he balances himself on the top rope. I liked the finish with Punk and Jericho, too.

 

Batista really bombed it up here, no pun intended. I really like Umaga, so the only part of the match I liked was the previously mentioned U U UMAGA chant. Good for Kane for getting his name in the fake history book for having the shortest match. That's a pretty cool accomplishment for the one main event guy out of the Attitude era who never got an extended run with the strap. I'm in the camp that LOVES Flair/Michaels, botches aside. I know I said it earlier, but Flair not being able to get the bridge adds to the story even if it detracts from the match. The only complaint I have is that I had hoped to see Flair lose in one of two ways: either going for the Figure 4 and getting small packaged or going for a slam and getting small packaged. I know it's too NWA for WWE but I would have loved that. Epic match. Epic robe. Epic fireworks. The wind blowing through Shawn's hair would also be epic if Michaels had more hair.Plus Michaels deciding to kill himself with moonsaults all night made me mark out. The woman's match is excusable this year because it gave us Santino calling Snoop Dogg "Snoopy the Dog!" Plus the Escalade golf cart

 

Bob Barron I loved that promo Snoop cut where it was pro-Santino only to reveal that it was written by Santino

Mattdotcom: Orton winning the triple threat was cool too. I love the punt. I was also glad to finally see a Doomsday Device with a crossbody thanks to Orton and Cena. That and their match against the Raw Roster makes me want them to team up down the road I may be in the minority but I love the Show/Mayweather match. Despite his involvement in WM 2000, I'd this is the first time they got Big Show in a good role for the literal big show I know the prematch stuff was marred with inconcsistencies but everyone accepting Big Show as the face led to such greatness as "HE CAN'T BE STEPPIN' ON HIM!"

Show was so over after this match and I think they really blew it with him

King Kamala Classic: yeah Show should have been a top babyface after that match but they had to do the requisite tall guy Vs tall guy feud instead

Mattdotcom: Edge/Taker blows it all away. Edge countering every big move was fantastic. We kept repeatin this, but I'd say their post Mania matches aren't as good as this one. Plus Charles Robinson (who I was glad to see reffing the Flair match) running down the ramp is fantastic stuff. To sum it up, I love this show. It's not my top favorite, but it is up there

Bob Barron: Coach and Cole though....they put Susan St. James in perspective.

 

And on that note, we end our second to last part of our six part series on WrestleMania. I got something exciting up my sleeve though to fill in the void between WrestleMania and SummerSlam roundtables and it'll be interactive!

[bob_barron 0]

You mean we really are going to do the Mr. Hughes roundtable?

[King Kamala 0]

Yes, his match with Mr. Perfect at King of The Ring '93 must be discussed in depth.

[Aero 0]

WM 21:

This is definitely hovering around the top 5 WM list for me. The two main events suck compared to the undercard, but the undercard is so good that the two main events barely put a black mark on the show as a whole. That said, the booking of the two main events, I think, should have been drastically different.

 

If there's one match that needed to be completely overbooked, it was Cena-JBL. It's been said, but a 10-minute, boring match is the worst possible way to end JBL's 10 month title reign. I think I might be wrong, but I could have sworn that I read around this time that no one else was allowed to blade because HHH was going to bleed for his match. (But then again, I also remember people on the board complaining that Rey didn't get to do the stage pop-out because HHH rose from beneath the stage during Motorhead's performance.) Anyway, I'd have JBL blade, at least a little, (setting up JBL busting open Cena in the I Quit match at Judgment Day), and Cena would have to fight off the Cabinet members one by one as they try to interfere, kind of like in the Luger-Hogan title match on Nitro in August 97 where the referee holds off calling a DQ as Luger fights off the nWo members. Save the No DQ stuff for the I Quit match later, but clearly the 10-minute wrestling match with a finish out of nowhere was not the way to go. I'll just add JBL's entrance (along with his GAB entrance later in the year) is one of my favorites of all time. Cena's celebration rules as well. Anytime a wrestler jumps into the crowd to celebrate winning a title is just awesome.

 

I understand that they didn't want HHH to look weak in his match with Batista, but again, I think they took the wrong direction for the match here. 20+ minutes resulted in a slow, plodding match (not a horrible match, but quite boring). If anything, I would've cut the time in half and had Batista basically destroy HHH.

 

 

 

WM 22:

This is probably the worst of the WM's since XIX, but it's still an enjoyable show from top to bottom. HHH-Cena surprised the hell out of me by actually being really entertaining (crowd helps a lot, though... and we got the BOO-YAY! slug-fests out of it). I was expecting Cena to win, but winning by submission was a shock. I love seeing the camera pan to the guy in the crowd with his arms in the air saying WTF?

 

 

 

WM 23:

I liked HBK-Cena the first time, but I liked it much more when I rewatched it months later. I watched it a few weeks ago, and it still holds up as a great match, and, I'd say, one of the best WM main events ever. I did completely forget that they were co-holders of the Raw Tag titles though. I was hoping for it at the time, but I would have had them drop the titles to the recently-reformed World's Greatest Tag Team on SNME, and then Benjamin & Haas could face London & Kendrick in a Champion vs. Champion exhibition (no titles on the line) at WM.

 

I was always kind of annoyed that the ECW/New Breed match only got about 6-7 minutes, especially since they had the far superior extreme rules rematch two days later, which should have been at WM. I assume they just wanted to have the faces win at WM, but whatever. MITB is decent, but I really hate the spot where Orton does his RKO-fest on everyone. Now that's a spot that's ridiculously contrived, as everyone (save for Punk maybe? Until a few minutes later) just runs right into it. And Matt Hardy channels his inner-heel by threatening to Twist of Fate Sharmell unless Booker comes down from the ladder. Cool spot. Oh, and MVP's entrance with cheerleaders rules. He needs it (along with the return of the pyro & tunnel) for this year's WM now that he's champion again.

 

 

 

WM 24:

I like it, but it's not as good as I originally thought last year. Flair-HBK the match is above average (hovering around *** or so), but Flair-HBK the story is excellent, so I'd probably settle on a rating of **** or so. MITB is fine, and I love the spot of Morrison climbing the wedged ladder. I love Big Show-Mayweather, as it's probably my favorite celebrity match in wrestling. It's been said, but Mayweather's crew outside are tremendous here. Everyone knew that Mayweather was winning, so it was good that it was done in convincing fashion.

 

 

-----------

 

 

Some of the build for this year's show is weak (although HHH-Orton finally picked up), but I still expect a very good show. WWE seems almost incapable of delivering a bad WM in recent years. The last one that I'd even consider to be underwhelming was maybe 18, but even that wasn't completely horrible.

[Papacita 0]

21: I think I may be the only person on the planet that didn't like HBK/Angle. My judgment could be a little skewed, because I was BURNT OUT at the time and I was falling asleep all throughout the match, which was THE reason I ordered the show that year, and that kinda ruined the whole experience for me. I'm not usually one to pick a match apart, but that whole sequence with Michaels working the headlock just irks the shit outta me for some reason (it just seems so awkward), and the rest seems like stuff that would be good in theory, but it just never pulled me in. Other than that, while I've never actually seen Batista/HHH (pretty much the same reason), I agree with most of what's been said.

 

22:

It's a well worked match and it was cool seeing Cena get the win and that fan flip out.

Yessir!

 

Really can't say too much that hasn't already been said about this one, except that it's just cool as hell to see the crowd going crazy for Mickie during the match with Trish. That camera shot of her leaning up against the ring apron while she soaks in this big ass pop is--aside from the obvious--the moment of the match for me.

 

Edit: Oh yeah...Angle making both Orton AND Rey (the underdog babyface) tap during the World Title match was really irksome. Is there a wonder why Rey wasn't accepted as Champion????

 

23: I've seen bits and pieces of this on YouTube. HBK and Cena doesn't do it for me (love their rematches, though) and Matt Hardy is a dick! A DICK!

 

24: Really liked this one, and it kinda renewed my interest in wrestling last year. I definitely think Flair/HBK was a classic, while everything other than Batista/Umaga was good-great. I even liked the Bunnymania match (Maria works her ass off in that match!).

 

 

[King Cucaracha 0]

Both Cena/JBL and Batista/Triple H have have had better matches on other shows though they're certainly not terrible matches.

 

Respectfully disagree.

 

Batista/HHH isn't terrible, but I'd put Cena/JBL up there with the worst title matches in Wrestlemania history. And here's a re-post from that 'worst match ever' draft as to why, just 'cause.

 

 

It's amazing to think how much of a reaction Cena gets now and then look at this. Actually, it's amazing to watch shows surrounding this and then wonder why the crowd are so dead for the biggest match of his career to that point. JBL's title reign wasn't exactly crowd friendly, mainly due to the fact they booked him to be the modern day version of the Honky Tonk Man. Time after time he relied on flukes and outside interference to retain the title. Anyway, watching the hype video first, the build-up was absolutely all over the place. They ripped off D'Lo beating HHH for the Euro Title with Rock's help for Orlando's US Title win. They had Cena FU Teddy Long for some reason. They ripped off HHH/Austin by implimenting a no physical contact until the PPV gimmick. They ripped off numerous Austin feuds by having Cena get arrested and beaten up by JBL while in cuffs. And Cena still didn't have a catchphrase at this point so he was throwing all kinds of shit against the wall.

 

Anyway, the match itself. NOTHING HAPPENED. Actually, that's a lie, JBL's entrance was awesome with the JBL bucks falling from the ceiling. But after that NOTHING HAPPENED. For reasons known to nobody JBL absolutely squashed Cena from the start. He just worked him over with move after move, shot after shot and the crowd were dead. By the time Cena eventually made his comeback, nobody really cared and those that did stopped caring at the sight of his piss-poor offence. This match features THE VERY WORST hiptoss in wrestling history. Thank god Cena eventually dropped that. The fact this happened after Angle/HBK and an Austin/Piper segment probably didn't help either. But aside from a couple of not too impressive Cena chants the crowd were really disinterested. And then it just ended out of nowhere with an FU. No drama, no nearfalls, it just ended. Cena then went into a full Eddie Guerrero victory celebration in the crowd, minus the fans going wild and the great match that proceeded it.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

The Judgment Day match between JBL & Cena was the one they should have had at Wrestlemania. I really enjoyed that one.

 

As for the double main-event at Wrestlemania XXI, the timing was really screwed up. JBL/Cena was criminally short, and Batista/HHH was way too long. The booking there was just awful.

[jericho4life 0]

Both Cena/JBL and Batista/Triple H have have had better matches on other shows though they're certainly not terrible matches.

 

Respectfully disagree.

 

Batista/HHH isn't terrible, but I'd put Cena/JBL up there with the worst title matches in Wrestlemania history. And here's a re-post from that 'worst match ever' draft as to why, just 'cause.

 

 

It's amazing to think how much of a reaction Cena gets now and then look at this. Actually, it's amazing to watch shows surrounding this and then wonder why the crowd are so dead for the biggest match of his career to that point. JBL's title reign wasn't exactly crowd friendly, mainly due to the fact they booked him to be the modern day version of the Honky Tonk Man. Time after time he relied on flukes and outside interference to retain the title. Anyway, watching the hype video first, the build-up was absolutely all over the place. They ripped off D'Lo beating HHH for the Euro Title with Rock's help for Orlando's US Title win. They had Cena FU Teddy Long for some reason. They ripped off HHH/Austin by implimenting a no physical contact until the PPV gimmick. They ripped off numerous Austin feuds by having Cena get arrested and beaten up by JBL while in cuffs. And Cena still didn't have a catchphrase at this point so he was throwing all kinds of shit against the wall.

 

Anyway, the match itself. NOTHING HAPPENED. Actually, that's a lie, JBL's entrance was awesome with the JBL bucks falling from the ceiling. But after that NOTHING HAPPENED. For reasons known to nobody JBL absolutely squashed Cena from the start. He just worked him over with move after move, shot after shot and the crowd were dead. By the time Cena eventually made his comeback, nobody really cared and those that did stopped caring at the sight of his piss-poor offence. This match features THE VERY WORST hiptoss in wrestling history. Thank god Cena eventually dropped that. The fact this happened after Angle/HBK and an Austin/Piper segment probably didn't help either. But aside from a couple of not too impressive Cena chants the crowd were really disinterested. And then it just ended out of nowhere with an FU. No drama, no nearfalls, it just ended. Cena then went into a full Eddie Guerrero victory celebration in the crowd, minus the fans going wild and the great match that proceeded it.

 

Agree with all of this. No idea who booked the flow of that match - it wasn't Pat Patterson right? After all the build, no interference, no near-fall screwjobs? And the crowd response for Cena afterwards and his over the top celebration is just :crickets: They actually put this on the Stars of WM DVD too (i think that was the name, its on 24/7 right now).

[Corey_Lazarus 0]

Lord help me, I will never think of Cena/Michaels from WM23 as anything other than a horrible piece of shit. Yeah, the last few minutes are good, but everything before that? Boring. As. Fuck. You can have great psychology and selling (even if Cena no-selling the knee-work was the opposite of both) while making it interesting, too. Awful match, and definitely the worst HBK has ever had at 'Mania.

[megaadvice 0]

mmmm, I very much disagree with most of the panel.

 

Infact my 2 favourite Mania's in this list are 22 and 24.

 

Mania 21 was poor in my opinion, Eddie and Ray had by far their worst singles match together, they would produce some brilliant stuff in June of '05 but this was a mess. VERY unpopular opinion I know but I thought 21 had the worst MITB match out of all of them. The 2 title matches were nothing special and HBK vs Angle showcased everything that is wrong with Kurt Angle.

 

Mania 22, yes there were some poor matches, but 4 of them on this card made this well worth it. Edge vs Foley is a brilliant hardcore match and went a long way to 'making' Edge, just as Foley's match with Orton 2 years prevoiusly had helped make Orton. Trish vs Micky was the culmination of the best storyline in the WWE that year and produced the best womens title match ever. HHH vs Cena (the entraNces were awesome BTW) had the 'big match' feel about it that made it brilliant, not the best match, yes, but give me this over Taker/Edge, Cena/HBK anyday in terms of last matches on. MITB was good also.

 

Mania 23, MITB was good, as was Taker/Batista. HBK/Cena was good BUT dull and had almost zero big match feel to it. Everything else was terrible.

 

Mania 24, Flair's retirment gave us the most memorable Mania Moment since Eddie and Benoit and the end of XX, IMO it had the best MITB ever and the Triple threat match was very underrated.

 

I would rank them:

 

22

24

23

21