Bret Hart responds to Ric Flair's comments

[KTID 0]

It was a combination of both. Shawn Michaels was booked to lose the title to Sid (who would then defend it against The Undertaker at WrestleMania XIII) and then job to Bret Hart at WrestleMania XIII.

 

By suffering a life-threatening injury/losing his smile/being a dick, Michaels got out of two high profile jobs. The title was still switched to Sid (via Bret, and 4 days later than planned), who still went on to lose it to 'Taker. The only way Michaels screwed up the booking was that instead of facing Bret Hart, Steve Austin was put in his place, since they still technically had yet to resolve the Hart/Austin fued. The consequences of replacing Michaels with Austin in this match would, rather ironically, reap much greater benefits for the company than the Hart/Michaels re-match would have.

[Guest MikeSC]

He did. He reiterated two weeks later and a month later. While talks were see-sawing back and forth, and they were trying to come up with a proper way to leave.

 

The point is he knew he was leaving. That's why he told him on the same day Hart found out his contract was getting breached. He didn't want to job to someone leaving to go to WCW.

 

 

I love how you're trying to make Shawn Michaels out to be some sort of good company man.

They were BOTH royal dicks. Nobody is saying Shawn was a great guy.

-=Mike

[Shanghai Kid 0]

This thread has gone to hell, why can't we just let it die?

[Guest JMA]

Does anyone have a report of the WOL interview?

[BHK 0]

This thread has gone to hell, why can't we just let it die?

I agree.

 

Hwever, the first 10-12 pages were some of the better discussion that I've seen on this board in quite a while. So props to those people for acutally having interesting constructive discussion.

[Downhome 0]

Not that it maters, and not that it hasn't been said, but I have always seen Ric Flair and Bret Hart on the same level. Just as everyone else here, I can only speak on this from the viewpoint of a fan since we've never been in the ring with either of the guys. From just a visual standpoint though, I've always thought that the work of both Flair and Hart were right up there together.

 

Both of the guys wrestled the same type of match over and over again for the most part, especially with people of thier same size. When facing a larger opponent they would change things up a bit to look like an underdog and do a slightly different match, which is obviously needed, and they both could carry people of lesser talent to pretty damn good matches.

 

When talking about the overall better performer however, I give the nod to Ric Flair only because of his more in your face character, interviews, mic skills, and in my opinion just because he had the look and the character of a true champion down the best out of the two.

 

When it comes to flat out skill though, yeah, I'd put them on the same leval. Always have, and always will, regardless of the immature bitching and crying that goes on between both of them.

[Guest MikeSC]

Thing is, I always felt Flair tended to get stuck with worse workers. Hell, he had to work with Dusty ad inifinitum and Rhodes was, flat out, horrible. There was nobody Hart had to work with regularly who brought the suck, consistently, like Dust did.

-=Mike

[Guest Ray]

Bret had to wrestle an evil dentist, an enormously fat sumo wrestler, and a pirate. Just sayin'

[SuperJerk 0]

It was a combination of both.  Shawn Michaels was booked to lose the title to Sid (who would then defend it against The Undertaker at WrestleMania XIII) and then job to Bret Hart at WrestleMania XIII.

 

By suffering a life-threatening injury/losing his smile/being a dick, Michaels got out of two high profile jobs.  The title was still switched to Sid (via Bret, and 4 days later than planned), who still went on to lose it to 'Taker.

That's pretty damn convulted booking on the WWF's part. No wonder I was confused.

 

What was the original point of the Fatal 4Way, then? Was Undertaker supposed to win it and become number one contender?

 

(I'm also guessing the only reason Michaels was given the title at the Royal Rumble was because it was in San Antonio?)

[Guest Rrrsh]

I have always had a question on this "Bret was gonna beat Shawn at WM 13 and thats why Shawn made up a kneee injury" story. I think its complete bullshit.

 

Why would Vince book a match (Bret/Shawn) that has no build other than "Hey we fought last year" over a blowoff gimmick match in a fued that has been building since September (Austin/Bret)

[chaosrage 0]

It was a combination of both. Shawn Michaels was booked to lose the title to Sid (who would then defend it against The Undertaker at WrestleMania XIII) and then job to Bret Hart at WrestleMania XIII.

And what would Austin be doing in all of this?

[TheOriginalOrangeGoblin 0]

Thing is, I always felt Flair tended to get stuck with worse workers. Hell, he had to work with Dusty ad inifinitum and Rhodes was, flat out, horrible. There was nobody Hart had to work with regularly who brought the suck, consistently, like Dust did.

-=Mike

Oh yah the mid-90's WWF was brimming with fabulous workers...

[Guest MikeSC]

Thing is, I always felt Flair tended to get stuck with worse workers. Hell, he had to work with Dusty ad inifinitum and Rhodes was, flat out, horrible. There was nobody Hart had to work with regularly who brought the suck, consistently, like Dust did.

                    -=Mike

Oh yah the mid-90's WWF was brimming with fabulous workers...

Better than Dusty and Nikita, honestly.

-=Mike

[algrim 0]

It'samazing that this thread is still going. For the sake of this great and endless debate, I humbly ask one of the moderators to put this thread in the Classics section.

[Guest JMA]

It'samazing that this thread is still going. For the sake of this great and endless debate, I humbly ask one of the moderators to put this thread in the Classics section.

I second this. I want to have a thread in the Classics folder.

[SuperJerk 0]

I have always had a question on this "Bret was gonna beat Shawn at WM 13 and thats why Shawn made up a kneee injury" story. I think its complete bullshit.

 

Why would Vince book a match (Bret/Shawn) that has no build other than "Hey we fought last year" over a blowoff gimmick match in a fued that has been building since September (Austin/Bret)

The WM12 match was being praised and ejaculated over so much in 1996, a rematch does make sense. But you raise a good point, as it could just be part of the legend (not that I beleive for one second Shawn was really too hurt to defend the belt).

 

To answer chaosrage's question, my guess (only a guess) would be that he'd face Rocky for the IC title.

 

I'm not sure when it was decided that Austin would turn face, so who knows?

[TheOriginalOrangeGoblin 0]

Thing is, I always felt Flair tended to get stuck with worse workers. Hell, he had to work with Dusty ad inifinitum and Rhodes was, flat out, horrible. There was nobody Hart had to work with regularly who brought the suck, consistently, like Dust did.

                    -=Mike

Oh yah the mid-90's WWF was brimming with fabulous workers...

Better than Dusty and Nikita, honestly.

-=Mike

Give me mid-80's Dusty over Isaac Yankem DDS anyday. And Koloff was terrible but he was no Yokozuna or Adam Bomb.

 

Although I have a soft spot for ol' Yoko.

[Promoter 0]

I have always had a question on this "Bret was gonna beat Shawn at WM 13 and thats why Shawn made up a kneee injury" story. I think its complete bullshit.

 

Why would Vince book a match (Bret/Shawn) that has no build other than "Hey we fought last year" over a blowoff gimmick match in a fued that has been building since September (Austin/Bret)

I can't remember for sure, but either Bret or Shawn said in a shoot interview that the two would have faced each other at WM 13. Actually, now that I think about it Bret said he had planned a finish for the match with something to do with breaking Shawn's leg after he attempted to do the sweet chin music. I can't say for sure where I read the transcript, but most likely it was RF Shootvideo. You guys do make a good point about what the hell Austin would be doing then if he wasn't facing Bret at WM 13. However, the booking seems like it was really haphazard at the time. I heard Bret/Austin WAS going to be the main event title match with Bret winning the title on the raw where he pushed down Vince and cussed him out. So who the hell knows. I also heard about an audio being called in the final four match when Austin hurt his leg and the title went to Bret(Austin was suppose to win alledgedly). So, where the hell does that fit in?

[Guest Rrrsh]

I always thought It was going to be HBK/Sid, Taker/Vader and Bret/Austin. Then, when Shawn got hurt they wanted Austin/Bret to ME for the belt. But we all know what happened at the Feb IYH.

 

 

And altho it was a shoot, if Bret admits he was never gonna face Shawn at WM 13, then his whole case that Shawn wont return a job and thats why he wasnt gonna job to Shawn in Montreal is shot down.

 

It makes no sense, for Bret's case, to admit that. And we all know that when it comes to this issue, there is lie's all over the place.

[Promoter 0]

And altho it was a shoot, if Bret admits he was never gonna face Shawn at WM 13, then his whole case that Shawn wont return a job and thats why he wasnt gonna job to Shawn in Montreal is shot down.

 

It makes no sense, for Bret's case, to admit that. And we all know that when it comes to this issue, there is lie's all over the place.

I think that is where the heart of the issue lies. If they weren't suppose to face each other and Bret wasn't going to regain the championship from Shawn you are right. It makes Bret look like the dick. Remember, I fully believe Bret started this whole mess when he was whining about his loss at WM 12. I have the post Mania 12 interview where it's shot outside and Bret goes on and on about "feeling betrayed everytime he loses that belt" and "there was no overtime shceduled". As a side note I have the HBK DVD and see the promo with Piper about the ironman contest between Bret and Shawn. You know what is interesting? I have the original footage and Piper did say there would be overtime if needed because there HAD TO BE A WINNER. I just don't get this whole post Mania interview by Bret. Now, when the wwe shows the footage that part is taken out(there goes re-writing history again). Then he goes on about maybe just retiring and going home to his family who had become strangers. I will say this. Bret did not really give HBK the green light as champ. That is why I believe HBK was being a dick by not wanting to job to Bret. I don't blame the man. There is a wwe article with Ultimate Warrior on the cover for his return where Bret's son Blade cuts down HBK as well. I'm a fair man I think looking at this situation from the info that is out there. Bret cut HBK again upon returning by saying Austin was the best wrestler in the world. I could see where HBK wouldn't want to job to Bret.

 

Then you have to ask this question. Vince got Bret to return and we know his ego. Isn't it fair to believe Hart would have want to get his job back from HBK as part of the deal to return? Even on OTR Vince stated that regardless of the situation between the two he expected more from Bret Hart which could mean a multiple of things in terms of performance and the backstage dealings.

 

Off topic, but HBK/Sid, Taker/Vader and Bret/Austin would have been eons better than that crap they gave us. Another proof of the haphazard booking for WM 13 was the tag title situation. It's said that Vader thought he was suppose to win the title and was surprised when Davey and Owen retained. Foley/Vader were suppose to win until last minute. Maybe because the wwe just thought about doing the family reunion and Hart heel turn and wanted the gold to stay on them. Again, that timeframe there are just too many damn things that don't make any sense.

[chaosrage 0]

Another thing is why did Bret leave? I make jokes from time to time about Bret losing his smile, but I've never ever heard a reason for him being gone. It's a little bit too coincidental that Bret left the day Shawn won the belt and his first match back was when he lost it in November.

 

Also, these have been some really great threads Promoter. Nice work. The WWE board's been more interesting the past few weeks then it's been in about a year.

[Guest Ray]

I heard that Bret returned in late 96 because Austin basically begged him to come back.

[SuperJerk 0]

Another thing is why did Bret leave?  I make jokes from time to time about Bret losing his smile, but I've never ever heard a reason for him being gone.

Bret was trying to get acting parts when he left after WM12. I figure he came back because he couldn't get any.

[Promoter 0]

That question right there is a good one. Shawn Michaels has gone on record saying he believed Bret did that purposely to see if he would tank as champ. HBK stated that Bret pulled a power move by doing this because of the monday night wars heating up. Bret was playing both sides as he was even rumoured to be the 3rd man in the nWo at one point. You know, I can't disagree with him on that. It is kind of ironic he goes into "semi-retirement". Bret did say he felt Vince turned him into a transitional champ after defeating Diesel at Survivor Series and loaded up his work schedule and lessening HBK's. He then said all of a sudden Vince asked him to prepare for an ironman match with HBK being all rested from the shoot angle with Owen in the previous months.

 

I could see Bret doing that sabbatical to show Vince he needed him as champ with hopes of HBK tanking. That would explain his burial of HBK's cheap win at WM 12 at every chance he got. I also believed Bret never jumped to wcw initially because he knew he would not become champ with Hulk Hogan turning heel and being a hot commodity. It just wouldn't happen. Hogan would play too much politics and with his re-newed hollywood character he would be allowed to get away with pull. This is not even taking into account Hall and Nash who were rumoured to be apart of the Kliq who did keep Bret down out of the main events in 1995. Bret knew what he was doing imo. He goes back to the wwf with only HBK to deal with. Triple H was no powerhouse then as we know from his "punishment"(which I feel had something to do with his power hunger with titles later). Now, could some see why it was possible for HBK to deny jobbing to Bret for these reasons originally upon his return? From what I also gathered was the whole Austin thing was a way to bury Bret if he didn't return. Remember Austin was calling out Hart in the summer of 1996. Vince set that up just in case Hart didn't return he would have Austin make claims of Bret running scared. That Austin feud was a back-up and secondary plan to what the real main event story was. Russo even wrote an entire article about the wwe not beig big enough for HBK and Bret and that Bret's main mission upon returning would be to topple HBK to show he was the best.

 

I like the discussions too. This place has knowledgeable guys. I like these discussions because it also keeps me interested with the current stuff. Some of it I can't stand and in this way I can discuss things that kept me interested in wrestling to begin with. Sometimes it comes off like complaining, but it really isn't. It's just talking about stuff that had interested at different points or trying to get other viewpoints on things from different posters.

[SuperJerk 0]

Bret was playing both sides as he was even rumoured to be the 3rd man in the nWo at one point.

 

I also believed Bret never jumped to wcw initially because he knew he would not become champ with Hulk Hogan turning heel and being a hot commodity.

There's no way Bret could've known Hogan was going to turn heel before it happened.

 

If Hart had been the "third man" (which we'd have to know about when WCW made Bret that first offer before this rumor could be given weight), then Hogan probably wouldn't have turned heel.

[Guest Brian]

I have always had a question on this "Bret was gonna beat Shawn at WM 13 and thats why Shawn made up a kneee injury" story. I think its complete bullshit.

 

Why would Vince book a match (Bret/Shawn) that has no build other than "Hey we fought last year" over a blowoff gimmick match in a fued that has been building since September (Austin/Bret)

Why does Vince book most of the matches he does? Vince booking often flies in the face of logic.

[Promoter 0]

If Hart had been the "third man" (which we'd have to know about when WCW made Bret that first offer before this rumor could be given weight), then Hogan probably wouldn't have turned heel.

I think Hart would have been in a political power struggle regardless of Hogan turning heel. Remember the two didn't exactly see eye to eye with Bret Hart believing Hogan didn't want to put him over in 1993(ironic he returns and has kind of the same problem with HBK). It's fair to think that Hart knew that wcw would be power struggle. Don't forget he would also have guys like Sting and Flair to deal with on the ladder of success in the southern promotion. In the wwe he would only have to contend with Shawn Michaels and be the top dog.In other words, he would be the big fish in a little pond, but that pond had a monster image of being "the revolutionary force in sports entertainment". It didn't really change until the fall when wcw really got on a roll with Hallowen Havoc and Starrcade.

[Guest The Ultimate Fantasy]

You know If you think about it HBK/Hart could have been the WW/F's equilvant to Flair/Steamboat if it were not for politics because before Smarkdom, I remember thinking that whenever Bret and HBK could do no wrong, and there Iron Man match is one of my favorite matches of all time.

[chaosrage 0]

You know If you think about it HBK/Hart could have been the WW/F's equilvant to Flair/Steamboat if it were not for politics because before Smarkdom, I remember thinking that whenever Bret and HBK could do no wrong, and there Iron Man match is one of my favorite matches of all time.

This thread is going another 10 pages now.

[Guest Loss]

Actually, we'll see what happens. I'm waiting on a recap of last night's WOL to be posted, and hopefully it will lead to more of what we had before.