Europeans are worse than cockroaches

[Firestarter 0]

An interesting article in The Spectator by the inimitable Mark Steyn, who seems set to take up the colours of the late, much-missed Michael Kelly.

 

I don't agree with all of his conclusions, but for the most part he seems to be on target. I don't have answers to all the questions he poses, but I feel that I should. Anyone have any thoughts?

 

For my part, I'll take exception to one claim in particular: namely, that meaningful assimilation and acculturation of Europe-bound Moslems is practically impossible. History contradicts Mr Steyn on this point; the ideas of liberty, justice, truth, democracy, and the universality of individual rights are extremely powerful. Given time, sufficient and sustained exposure, and the inevitable defeat and discrediting of Islam's terrorist-laden culture of murder, blackmail, and domination, even those whose viewpoints are completely intractable under the current circumstances will eventually subscribe to the American way. Or, if not, their children shall, or their children's children.

 

One day before his murder, on April 3, 1968, Dr Martin Luther King put it thus:

I would turn to the Almighty, and say, "If you allow me to live just a few years in the second half of the twentieth century, I will be happy." Now that's a strange statement to make, because the world is all messed up. The nation is sick. Trouble is in the land. Confusion all around. That's a strange statement. But I know, somehow, that only when it is dark enough, can you see the stars. And I see God working in this period of the twentieth century in a way that men, in some strange way, are responding - something is happening in our world. The masses of people are rising up. And wherever they are assembled today, whether they are in Johannesburg, South Africa; Nairobi, Kenya; Accra, Ghana; New York City; Atlanta, Georgia; Jackson, Mississippi; or Memphis, Tennessee - the cry is always the same:

 

"We want to be free."

I think Dr King was right. I think all men want to be free. And that's why I think the death of the evil cultures Islam fosters is inevitable. In this century, as in Dr King's, there is trouble in the land, and confusion all around - but I can see the stars. And they aren't anywhere near the crescent moon or the sword; the stars I see shine brightly on a field of rippling blue, and below and to their right stream broad stripes of red and white. Others have seen them in the past, and in the future, more and more will learn to see them. Because we, as a race, not only want but fundamentally need to see these stars: and the need for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness can be denied by neither tyrants nor tyrannical religions. No matter how long a people has suffered, no matter how long dissent has been stifled, and justice denied, the spark of the human spirit remains. All it needs is kindling.

 

I'll let Dr King have the last word.

 

Well, I don't know what will happen now. We've got some difficult days ahead. But it doesn't matter with me now. Because I've been to the mountaintop. And I don't mind. Like anybody, I would like to live a long life. Longevity has its place. But I'm not concerned about that now. I just want to do God's will. And He's allowed me to go up to the mountain. And I've looked over. And I've seen the promised land. I may not get there with you. But I want you to know tonight, that we, as a people, will get to the promised land. And I'm happy tonight. I'm not worried about anything. I'm not fearing any man.

 

Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord.

Edited November 7, 2003 by Cancer Marney

[Guest MikeSC]

I don't agree with all of his conclusions, but for the most part he seems to be on target. I don't have answers to all the questions he poses, but I feel that I should. Anyone have any thoughts?

 

For my part, I'll take exception to one claim in particular: namely, that meaningful assimilation and acculturation of Europe-bound Moslems is practically impossible. History contradicts Mr Steyn on this point; the ideas of liberty, justice, truth, democracy, and the universality of individual rights are extremely powerful. Given time, sufficient and sustained exposure, and the inevitable defeat and discrediting of Islam's terrorist-laden culture of murder, blackmail, and domination, even those whose viewpoints are completely intractable under the current circumstances will eventually subscribe to the American way. Or, if not, their children shall, or their children's children.

 

I actually have to side with Steyn here.

 

Until recently, there was a POWERFUL drive to assimilate into society. It was extremely powerful in all countries.

 

We now have multi-culturalism which teaches that all societies and cultures are equal. None are better than others. Thus, the impetus to assimilate has been severely hampered by this mindset.

 

As usual, many of the post-1960's changes that sought to undo thousands of years of civilization has proven to be disastrous. We've learned that women entering the workforce does not necessarily mean that that they will be happier and more satisfied than being a stay-at-home mother. We've learned that no-fault divorce is a REALLY bad thing for women. We've learned that corporal punishment for children might not be a bad thing whatsoever.

 

At some point, the Baby Boomer generation needs to be made to reaize that what they believed did not work, by and large.

-=Mike

[Jobber of the Week 0]

I've tried and failed too many times to talk with Marney about Islam, so I'm not going to bite on that one, but I can't even figure out how it relates with this rant:

 

We've learned that women entering the workforce does not necessarily mean that that they will be happier and more satisfied than being a stay-at-home mother.

 

Maybe not. It brings a whole new set of challenges, fears, and nervous situations. But shouldn't people be open to more or less choose their own path, rather than be persueded by culture? I wasn't a big fan of the Ally McBeal image that was appearing in the late 90s, but that's because I approve more of people making their own path.

 

And I'm not sure how that's a bad thing.

 

We've learned that corporal punishment for children might not be a bad thing whatsoever.

 

What? Where did this lesson come about? My guessing is that you're going to expand this into something about school shootings, but I don't think a slap on the wrist as a 5 year old would have stopped those.

[Guest stardust]

We've learned that women entering the workforce does not necessarily mean that that they will be happier and more satisfied than being a stay-at-home mother.

 

From The Psychology of Women, Fifth Edition by Margaret W. Matlin:

 

For many women, having multiple roles provides a buffer effect (Barnett, 1997; Barnett & Hyde, 2001; Cleveland et al., 2000). Specifically, employment acts as a buffer against the stress of family problems, and family life acts as a buffer against problems at work. When these roles are generally positive, the benefits of multiple roles seem to outweigh the disadvantages (J.D. Yoder, 2000).

 

Several studies have demonstrated that women's lives are enhanced by employment. In general, employed women report a greater sense of competence and accomplishment, compared to nonemployed women (Cleveland et al., 2000; P.H. Hoffman & Hale-Benson, 1987).

[Firestarter 0]

I actually have to side with Steyn here....

We now have multi-culturalism which teaches that all societies and cultures are equal... the impetus to assimilate has been severely hampered by this mindset.

I think that the triumph of the United States over the evil of militant Islam will change this. Were there no war on terror, I might agree with you, but I think the repurcussions of our current crusade will affect more than politics and international relations. They will affect, in addition, the very mechanism of assimilation.

 

"I have read a fiery gospel, writ in burnished rows of steel:

'As ye deal with my contemners, so with you my grace shall deal...'

As he died to make men holy, let us die to make men free,

While God is marching on."

[Highland 0]

Christrian tyranny can be every bit as deadly as Islamic terrorism, so I completely dismiss the argument that converting the Middle East to Christianity will somehow solve its problems.

Bringing capitalism and democracy, however, will go a long way to breaking the hold the terrorist have in those lands and over those people.

[Guest JMA]

Christrian tyranny can be every bit as deadly as Islamic terrorism, so I completely dismiss the argument that converting the Middle East to Christianity will somehow solve its problems.

Bringing capitalism and democracy, however, will go a long way to breaking the hold the terrorist have in those lands and over those people.

You're correct. Christian tyranny can be (and has been) just as bad. But the non-elightened societies throughout the Middle East have caused Islam to "devolve," in a way. Whereas Christianity has had to conform Democracy (making it better, IMO). Hopefully, the same can be done for Islam.

[Highland 0]

In that case I believe it is more a point that democracy must be brought in so Islam can evolve. There's no way Christianity will replace Islam in the Middle East any more than it would be popular in the US outside of Michigan. Christianity didn't so much make democracy for the better as democracy and the rights therein made Christianity better than it was before democracy.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

But how will we bring Democracy to the Middle East without, at some point, coming into direct conflict with the Saudi goverment (and others)? I mean, you guys are talking about big, big, changes to the reigon. We should be thinking about what the steps to get to THAT point are, instead of what can we do after we've gotten there.

[Vyce 0]

At present demographic rates, by 2020 the majority of children in Holland — i.e., the population under 18 — will be Muslim.

 

Anyone else get a chill up their spine over this sentence?

[tommytomlin 0]

OH DEAR GOD THE MUSLIMS HAVE TAKEN HOLLAND?!#

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

OH DEAR GOD THE MUSLIMS HAVE TAKEN HOLLAND?!#

They can have it as far as I'm concerned.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

At present demographic rates, by 2020 the majority of children in Holland — i.e., the population under 18 — will be Muslim.

 

Anyone else get a chill up their spine over this sentence?

Not really. I think this is running under the assumption that a big majority of the Muslims in Holland will be having multiple children, and that those children will be Muslims. Even then, I think it'll be closer to 50/50, and it's very hard to predict stuff like religion. It's easy to say "everyone is going to trust in their parents' beliefs" but it's not that simple.

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

Holland eh? I guess that means that Bas "Ahmed Abdul" Rutten Jr. will be kicking ass and taking names in the near future.

 

So as far as multiculturalism goes in North America, do you agree more with keeping things seperate and diverse or do you like the "melting pot" theory.

[MrRant 0]

Damn Dutch.

[Firestarter 0]

I completely dismiss the argument that converting the Middle East to Christianity will somehow solve its problems

That might be relevant if anyone had made that argument in this thread.

[Firestarter 0]

you guys are talking about big, big, changes to the reigon

You say that as if it's a bad thing.

 

how will we bring Democracy to the Middle East without, at some point, coming into direct conflict with the Saudi goverment (and others)?

We won't.

[Firestarter 0]

I think this is running under the assumption that a big majority of the Muslims in Holland will be having multiple children

Moslems in Holland are having multiple children.

 

this is running under the assumption... that those children will be Muslims

The children of Moslems in Western countries usually are Moslems. This is because of these two facts:

1) Islam makes it extremely hard for an adherent (even if "only" so by birth) to renounce it, and

2) Moslems have a strong tendency to segregate themselves; see Birmingham and Manchester for examples.

 

Even then, I think it'll be closer to 50/50

I hope you're somehow proven right.

[Firestarter 0]

do you agree more with keeping things seperate and diverse or do you like the "melting pot" theory.

Obviously, the melting pot theory. Diversity is fine in a limited sense, but Americans must be Americans first and foremost. No fucking hyphenation. You're not an African-American or a Moslem-American or a Hindoo-American or an Asian-American or a Martian-American. You're one or the other. You're with us or against us. Choose.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

1) Islam makes it extremely hard for an adherent (even if "only" so by birth) to renounce it, and

What the hell? If you don't believe in it, it's not exactly like you need to pay attention to the tradition of disassociating yourself from it.

[Firestarter 0]

What the hell? If you don't believe in [islam], it's not exactly like you need to pay attention to the tradition of disassociating yourself from it.

You're an ignorant fool. Do you think someone's attention might be gained by death sentences for "apostates" (defined, among other things, as anyone who renounces Islam for any reason whatsoever) which even family members have a religious duty to execute?

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

do you agree more with keeping things seperate and diverse or do you like the "melting pot" theory.

Obviously, the melting pot theory. Diversity is fine in a limited sense, but Americans must be Americans first and foremost. No fucking hyphenation. You're not an African-American or a Moslem-American or a Hindoo-American or an Asian-American or a Martian-American. You're one or the other. You're with us or against us. Choose.

Or you're a Canadian

 

Concerning myself, I still show pride for my background but obviously I am a Canadian first and foremost, which is why I don't act like a FOB or anything like that. In fact, when there are groups of Tamil people playing cards at a table or something, I might just go slam the table and yell "FUCK TAMIL PEOPLE~!"

 

Of course I have to know them, and they have to know that I'm Tamil too, since I don't feel like getting shot up or anything.

 

I believe that it's possible to have the Melting Pot theory yet at the same time retain our diversity, because at least it's not complete assimilation. Anyone who believes in complete assimilation kind of scares me personally, because it's too intolerant and ignorant for my liking.

[Highland 0]

I completely dismiss the argument that converting the Middle East to Christianity will somehow solve its problems

That might be relevant if anyone had made that argument in this thread.

Your opening post implied, if not so much as said, that Islam has to go in the Middle East before the terrorist will be stopped. It sounded rather Ann Coulter-ish to me.

[Highland 0]

At present demographic rates, by 2020 the majority of children in Holland — i.e., the population under 18 — will be Muslim.

 

Anyone else get a chill up their spine over this sentence?

No, because I haven't heard of any terrorist attacks in the Netherlands, with its liberal drug laws and far lower crime rate than the US, hmmm maybe you guys should adopt Holland's drug policy?

 

Getting back on topic, I really don't think there's going to be a new wave of suicide terrorist coming out of the Netherlands, simply because many of the factors that lead these deluded fools to strap on explosives to themselves and blow themselves apart in the middle of crowded cafes.

[Vyce 0]

I completely dismiss the argument that converting the Middle East to Christianity will somehow solve its problems

That might be relevant if anyone had made that argument in this thread.

Your opening post implied, if not so much as said, that Islam has to go in the Middle East before the terrorist will be stopped. It sounded rather Ann Coulter-ish to me.

It just about needs to be eliminated from the region. Certainly, it needs to be eliminated from all forms of government there.

 

NO ONE here is saying it should be replaced with Christianity, or any other religion. Religion should be taken out of the equation entirely.

[Firestarter 0]

NO ONE here is saying it should be replaced with Christianity, or any other religion.  Religion should be taken out of the equation entirely.

Vyce is, of course, correct.

 

I haven't heard of any terrorist attacks in the Netherlands, with its liberal drug laws and far lower crime rate than the US, hmmm maybe you guys should adopt Holland's drug policy?

Right right right, all that shit UBL spouted about Islam's holy mission to wipe the infidels off the face of the earth was only a blind. He just wants us to liberalise our drug laws.

 

Pardon me, but are you on fucking crack?

 

No, seriously, tell me what the high holy hell drug laws have to do with Islamic terrorism. I'm DYING to know. Oh, and by the way, are you aware that a lot of Scandinavian countries are having Moslem problems of their own? There's a reason parties like Joerg Haider's in Germany and Pim Fortuyn's in the Netherlands have gained support. There was a case of a Norwegian woman a couple of years ago who, after being brutally gang-raped by a bunch of Moslem filth, was told by a professor at the University of Oslo that she needed "accept her share of the blame" and show more "cultural sensitivity" by not dressing "provocatively" because it offends Moslem norms. Remind me again whose country NORWAY is supposed to be? Would you like to address the fact that almost three-fourths of all rapes in that country are committed by Moslems before you start blithering about how tolerance has got them so FUCKING far?

 

Was there anything else?

[Highland 0]

Calm the fuck down, just because you serve in the DoD doesn't give you some special insight into other cultures, and I'm not an Islamic apologist, despite your accusations.

Do you really fucking believe that removing religion from their lives will actually stop the terrorist. Do you really believe that that policy would be even remotely successful?

The Middle East is a breeding ground for terrorists because they are not democracies, not because they bow down to Allah instead of Christ, and go to mosques instead of churches. THAT is why I said I wasn't worried about the growing ratio of young Moslems in Hollan; it's irrelevant and fearmongering. My comment on drugs was simply an observation on America's paranoid and outdated prohibitionist attitude towards drugs that other countries are rather ambivalent towards.

[Firestarter 0]

just because you serve in the DoD doesn't give you some special insight into other cultures

Perhaps not. Perhaps the fact that I've actually investigated the original text of the Koran, the Hadith, and the Surahs, read the work of scholars like Daniel Pipes and Bernard Lewis, and lived in Pakistan for four years does.

 

and I'm not an Islamic apologist, despite your accusations

I'm not sure where you see me accusing you of being one, although you did accuse me of being some kind of Bible-bashing evangelist (which is laughable; just ask SpiderPoet). I think you're ignorant, and your ignorance leads you to unrealistic conclusions.

 

Do you really fucking believe that removing religion from their lives will actually stop the terrorist. Do you really believe that that policy would be even remotely successful?

Yes.

 

The Middle East is a breeding ground for terrorists because they are not democracies, not because they bow down to Allah instead of Christ, and go to mosques instead of churches

Flat-out wrong. Christianity (as taken from the New Testament) does not say that anyone who refuses to believe in Jesus must pay a higher tax, nor does it say that "unbelievers" must be subjugated or killed. Christianity does not say that it is a sin to allow an "infidel" to hold power, social, economic, political, military, or any other kind, over a "believer." Christianity does not demand the murder of "apostates." Christianity does not claim that spreading the political power of the church over the entire world, through force, is a religious duty. Christianity does not claim that agreements and treaties with "unbelievers" are immaterial, null and void, and may be broken without dishonour. Christianity doesn't promise paradise to people who commit suicide to murder others. No even remotely Christian preacher in the United States would say anything of the sort. Not even lunatics like Falwell, Robertson, and Buchanan. You know what does explicitly say every single one of these things? Islam.

 

My comment on drugs was simply an observation on America's paranoid and outdated prohibitionist attitude towards drugs that other countries are rather ambivalent towards

I'm still not sure what your point was. I agree that drug laws desperately need to be liberalised; I've worked with the FBI and practically everyone in law enforcement is sick to death of wasting their time arresting teenage potheads. I don't want to spend another cent of the taxpayers' money on those obscenely ridiculous "mandatory minimums." But how on earth does that have ANYTHING to do with Islamic terrorism?

Edited November 9, 2003 by Cancer Marney

[Anorak 0]

For my part, I'll take exception to one claim in particular: namely, that meaningful assimilation and acculturation of Europe-bound Moslems is practically impossible. History contradicts Mr Steyn on this point; the ideas of liberty, justice, truth, democracy, and the universality of individual rights are extremely powerful. Given time, sufficient and sustained exposure, and the inevitable defeat and discrediting of Islam's terrorist-laden culture of murder, blackmail, and domination, even those whose viewpoints are completely intractable under the current circumstances will eventually subscribe to the American way. Or, if not, their children shall, or their children's children.

I definately agree on that point. It seems like the author is one of those funny little individuals who believe the powerful and enduring virtues you listed don't exist anywhere outside America. More fool him. Most Moslems living in Europe aren't as fanatic as Mr Steyn appears to be.

 

Maybe he could send me a 'I love Israel' badge before my few American friends disown me for being an evil anti-semite?

[Highland 0]

Flat-out wrong. Christianity (as taken from the New Testament) does not say that anyone who refuses to believe in Jesus must pay a higher tax, nor does it say that "unbelievers" must be subjugated or killed. Christianity does not say that it is a sin to allow an "infidel" to hold power, social, economic, political, military, or any other kind, over a "believer." Christianity does not demand the murder of "apostates." Christianity does not claim that spreading the political power of the church over the entire world, through force, is a religious duty. Christianity does not claim that agreements and treaties with "unbelievers" are immaterial, null and void, and may be broken without dishonour. Christianity doesn't promise paradise to people who commit suicide to murder others. No even remotely Christian preacher in the United States would say anything of the sort. Not even lunatics like Falwell, Robertson, and Buchanan. You know what does explicitly say every single one of these things? Islam.

 

I'm sure someone as learned as yourself would know about wonderful Christian ideas like the Inquisition, as well as other intolerant acts that led to the deaths of millions of people that continue to this day in parts of the world.

You are quick to call me ignorant, but I am not the one harping shrillingly that converting the Middle East will make the world a better place. It won't, and you're a fool to believe so.