Your Paragon of Virtue

Kharitanov via submission against Sylvia? I don't know about that one. I don't know if he could take him down. I think he is a better striker though.

There's not much of a point arguing with what should be on a list like this.

Roger Gracie beat him, I know that much. After training in mma for quite some time, he might be better suited for it. I mean he might be better at mma grappling, in terms of mixing GnP with top position, but in terms of pure grappling, I'm sure PDP is better.

Already proven wrong. Oh wait you said top 10. Never mind. Still funny. I'll get into actually arguing your point later.

I agree that that is the toughest choice, but beating Kharitanov is more significant than beating any of the guys Arlovski did, especially in the way he did it. I agree that he's probably not gonna last very long there.

I appreciate your enthusiasm for the topic but you have to let there be some debate for each statement before making a new one. I think most would agree that Tito has had more exciting fights than not, the question like RRR said is whether or not he is the cause. Personally, I would have to say that he is. His aggressive style made the matches vs. Bohlander, Mezger x2, Sinosic, and Ken Shamrock good. I don't think you can deny that. Against Griffin and Belfort, he delivered some exciting GnP as well as pushing the pace constantly. The drama of the fight itself helped, but his role in those fights cannot be denied. Maybe his cardio failed in the second one, but that has to do with injury, as well as the fact that he still made the fight exciting. It's not just on Forrest for that fight. Against Couture he was dominated so it's hard to say how much of a hand he had in the fight. However I will say that he still tried to win the fight and never gave up throughout its entirety, from bell to embarrassing bell. Against Frank Shamrock, he did try to push the pace until he gassed, at which point he lost. These fights are hard to judge, because from a technical standpoint they might not be that exciting, since there was little damage delivered from the guy on top in both. However, both had great drama and excitement, and were more chess matches than anything else. This is why they were exciting, and Tito's role in both can't really be discounted. Also, further proof to the claim that Tito is an exciting fighter is the fact that he has had other matches where he has won fairly quickly. This shows that he is still looking to finish the fight and push the pace, and is not exactly content to stall. Matches against Tanner, Albritton and Kondo prove this point. Tito has proven to bring it and has been involved in some of the most exciting fights in UFC history. I don't think that this is just coincidence, although a lot of the excitement for some of these matches stems from the heat surrounding it. Still, even with the 'volume turned off' these matches still hold up as being great.

We used to have this in other folders (I remember the thread in the music folder the most) and it always led to good debate. The premise is fairly simple; make a statement that you know goes against popular opinion, put it as matter-of-factly as you can, and then be prepared to debate with all the people that disagreed with you. It got really good some of the other times I saw it, and I'm pretty sure this type of thread goes back to the old smarks board days, I don't know for sure though. I'll go first to get the ball rolling. Tito Ortiz is not a boring fighter. To the contrary, he actually makes for quite exciting fights most of the time.

This is an appropriate link for the thread.

Ricco probably had LESS competition from PRIDE's second tier guys when he won. He was arguably second in the world at that point. Who would you place ahead of him? Fedor and Mirko were nowhere to be seen. Now you have a bunch of solid fighters in the HW division in PRIDE. The HW division overall was worse at that time than it is now. Cro Cop is no longer in the top three after the loss to Hunt. Fedor, Noguiera, Mirko, Hunt, Sylvia, Overreem (which is tough considering he only had one fight) are six guys I could put ahead of Arlovski right now. The first five of those for sure, and maybe even Sergei and Werdum.

Well it depends on whether you look at it as who has done what when, or how they relate now. I mean if it's now than you might as well just take the current list, since MMA is ever evolving and I can't think of a retired heavyweight fighter that would jump in the mix. It's scary to think about it that way, that the sport has grown to the point that what we have now is the best it has had to offer since it has been around. *Sees Buentello "armbar" Aldana* Oh shit.

During the middle of the next broadcast, when they have a boring match like Monson/PDP, they should just insert that split second clip of Silva kneeing Newton's face than go back like nothing happened. Insert some other KO's similarly throughout some shows. Then have the lights go dark at the end of one show, "Thriller" hits, and he comes dancing to the octagon in trademark fashion. It will work.

I know people get tired of threads like these, especially right after a guy loses. Just go to Sherdog and everytime a guy loses it seems that there are a billion threads stating that he should retire. Still, I feel that for once that this is appropriate. Not that he should retire, but rather that he was not as good as he was made out to be. He is an amazing athlete, and a lot of the fighters that he had faced he ran through. Part of the reason for that though was because they were all well suited to his style. After watching his fight with Sylvia I realized that in terms of official ranking of fighters, based on wins and losses, he's not looking too good. Wins over a washed up Vladdy and Freeman are not impressive. If you didn't think Cabbage was worthless after getting KO'ed by Tank, you might want to think so now after he was kimura'ed by Hamanaka. Eilers...well, he's Justin Eilers. Buentello might be credible, but again, a one-dimensional absolutely shitty grappler whose a poor athlete, which was easy for AA to exploit. He's a decent striker, but he's admittedly a shitty wrestler and seeing him try to armbar Aldana was painful to watch. The only real credible win is Sylvia, but now that he lost to him it makes him look worse. I know he dropped him and looked good at first but then he looked really bad after. Bottom line is that his biggest win to date was essentially overturned. While I think he should win a rematch, as of right now his ranking is not looking too good. Now about his actual skills, well he's a great striker, and he's very athletic. However he couldn't capitalize on the ground like we thought he could, judging by his first fight with Sylvia. When he was on the bottom he didn't even know how to get off of his front and not have his back exposed. He doesn't seem to have discipline in fighting judging by this, and he seems too reckless as a result. His grappling seems very limited, but since the heavyweight talent pool is so shallow I doubt this will get exposed anytime soon. At this point I would say that he should be on the lower part of the rankings if at all. I know he's got the skills to take out most people, but his record is unimpressive. Flame away.

Considering that the HW division can't really produce ten quality fighters, I would agree.

Kitaoka is hard to argue with, but maybe he's just that good? Diaz is not the fighter that many thought he was. Three losses in a row will make anyone look bad really, especially when one is against a guy that will soon be dropping in weight. None of them were really controversial either. Great, he stuffed Sherk's takedown, but what did he do in the standup to take advantage of that?

Your list having too many Japanese fighters was a joke. I'm not racist I swear. You're getting into too much MMAth with the Condit ranking. The Prater win was long ago, and he has sort of become a different fighter since then. That would be like saying after Matt Hughes won the first time against Newton that Hallman should have been the top ranked fighter in the world. Last I checked you had Fisher at the ten slot a couple of months ago. Should Prater have been ranked ahead of him then too?

I'm pretty sure Trigg was ranked before his first fight with Hughes. Again, if he shouldn't have been ranked, who would you have placed ahead of him? Condit's dominating performances over two very solid guys (one of which was a concensus top three fighter in the WW division, even if he is old now) and has a more solid resume than either Sanchez or Parisyan at this point. Sherk perhaps as well. This list is too Jap-friendly. As their people grow larger, so does their status in higher ranked divisions in MMA.

Also, Condit's wins over Trigg and Charuto are more impressive than beating Diaz. Especially since he beat them in a combined two minutes or something.

Let's not get ridiculous here. Condit's guard isn't better than Machado's, Charuto's or Hallman's. This just means that Trigg is old and his head is not in it anymore. *Sigh* I'm gonna miss seeing him beat the crap out of ADCC Champions.

Dude, I don't know. I can't even verify that. Frank Trigg lost in a minute at the last ROTR PPV, and apparently Charuto lost pretty badly in the second round. Trigg hinted at retirement, pretty strongly, as did Charuto. Really sucks, I was really hoping for trigg to have a resurgance in his career. If true, the first time I can say that I've seen one of my favourite fighters retire.

Am I the only one that noticed he didn't have his hooks in on that RNC? I wanna see how Matt does, and if he's anything more than just a wrestler.

Look who arrived just in time...

Indeed, the FCFighter database also has it. Much like they have the amateur fight of TSM's favourite celebrity

That's what I was saying, you have about 120 lbs on a guy, who seven years later is still a one-dimensional fighter with that dimension being striking.. and he outgrappled you. Never mind the fact that he has a questionable gas tank and should have fallen apart moving 300 lbs around eventually. I have to see that fight now.

If there was one that needed emphasis. This would be it. I am not talking bolded here, I'm talking flashing lights, making noise, spinning around. I still have a hard time believing this. Tim was probably also a lot heavier at this time.