NYU

Well, I was referring to this: I'm not completely sure how sarcastic the statement was. But with the way things have been going in the WWE folder the past couple of days, I wouldn't be shocked. Just saying that I HOPE multiple quoting isn't one of the main problems in the WWE folder, and that there way more important issues to address.

I think that I agree with Kotz now. Meaning? You seem a little angry. Oh good god, I just noticed something. There are three quotes being referred to right now. What madness have I created? I do believe I am lost in this tapestry of blue background and white boxes. Whatever am I to do?! First, it was people going off-topic that was a big problem of the WWE folder. Now it's referring to multiple quotes, as if that's the death-knell of the WWE folder, and that something of that terrible magnitude doesn't happen in any other folder here at TSM. What's next? These "problems" in the WWE folder are being blown up to a ridiculous magnitude, when they were never really much of a problem in the first place. Deleting threads because there are multiple quote-boxes? I don't know where to begin with the ridiculousness of that. If the WWE folder is in as terrible shape as some of the mods believe, I would HOPE these quote boxes are the least of all those problems.

Well, don't exclude the fact that those post regularly in the WWE folder didn't exactly clamor for these changes. It was those in Hardcore Discussion and other folders that went on about the WWE folder sucking, and all that. Some of us were, for the most part, perfectly happy with how the WWE folder was going right now. But then a group of moderators are coming in and closing threads that didn't need to be closed, making changes that the regular posters didn't want to see....doing all this stuff that is beginning to alienate the regular WWE posters.

That wasn't my point. Damaramu's saying that Chris Benoit is a GOOD wrestler and Shawn Michaels is a POOR wrestler, as if it's fact. Well, if those are the facts, then there's nothing to argue. I'm trying to convince him that it's all subjective. In someone's opinion, Chris Benoit could be the best wrestler. In another person's opinion, The Big Show can be the best wrestler. It's all subjective - which leaves room for discussion on why these people feel the way they do. However, that requires people actually believing that one could have a differing opinion. Looking at these things as being subjective actually promotes continued discussion. Acting as if there's nothing to discuss is only hurting things.

The Rock's matches get its heat simply because he's THE ROCK. Shawn Michaels's matches get its heat because of the psychology of it. The best proof of this is documented in WrestleMania XIX or the Royal Rumble. (Not including Last Raw of 2003, because that match had Insta-Heat.). In his matches vs. Jericho and vs. HHH, the crowd was relatively quiet at the beginning. Then, the action in the match continued to escalate until the fans were absolutely ENTHRALLED with the match. They begin to pop for every near-fall, give it some great heat.....that's working the crowd. Shawn is the best at that, I think. Rock gets heat in all his matches, agreed. But he doesn't really WORK the crowd like Shawn does.

Christ, you keep regurgitating the same points that didn't make sense the first time you said them. The goal of a football player? To win. Simple. Wrestling is pre-determined so the goal would not be to win. So that's out. The goal of a chef? To cook good food. Wrestlers don't cook in the ring so that wouldn't be a goal. Out. The goal of a wrestler? What makes him a good wrestler? Much more complicated. Let me explain this again: different criteria for different folks. What makes someone a good wrestler IN YOUR EYES does not make someone a good wrestler in EVERYONE'S eyes. Wrestling is different from any other sport in that the goal is not to win. The criteria is much different in professional wrestling and, though you don't like to believe it, it's subjective. Nobody would say Nathan Jones is the best wrestler ever because they enjoy seeing shitty moves. In that point, you're just being biased. However, and this may sound crazy, I'm sure there may be some fan in Australia that found Nathan Jones to be the best wrestler they've ever seen. They enjoy watching his high-impact moves, and feel that, with his skill and strength, he can beat almost anybody. Markish? Yes. But it's their opinion that Nathan Jones is the best wrestler. Who are you to say they're wrong? I'm not going to get into this long argument with you where you try to prove me wrong, so let me put this way. I will use YOUR criteria to prove Shawn Michaels is a good wrestler. Many times, Shawn truly looks hurt when he's in the ring. Rent Survivor Series 2003 and watch the 5-on-5 match. Rent Royal Rumble 2004 and watch the Last Man Standing match. He looks like he's ready to collapse in the ring. When somebody attacks a certain body part for a prolonged period of time, he starts screaming and REALLY looks like he's in pain. Later on, he'll kip-up so he can whip the fans into a frenzy. But it can't be denied that he makes the moves LOOK GOOD when he takes them. Shawn incorporates psychology into nearly every match he has. The last Raw of 2003, he targeted Triple H's knee throughout the match and had the crowd on its feet with a figure-four at the end of the matchup. His matches always have a point. Whether he's the underdog battling back (against Batista at Armageddon, 3-on-1 at Survivor Series 2003), the wily veteran trying to frustrate his opponent (Randy Orton at Unforgiven, Ric Flair at Bad Blood), the allegedly past-his-prime superstar trying to keep up in the ring (Chris Jericho at WrestleMania XIX), his matches always seem to tell a story. In fact, he's one of the few guys that actually DO tell a story in the ring. Since he's returned, I haven't heard of one person getting seriously injured in a match with him. So I'll say he's doing a damn good job of that. Up until the kip-up that bothers some people, Michaels DOES put on a believable match. 20 minutes into the match, until he gets an adrenaline boost, he'll look like he's ready to collapse. This is how most people would be. Against a younger athlete like Chris Jericho or Randy Orton, he doesn't try to outdo them in speed. He knows that he must stick to the basics to have an advantage. Against Batista in a big man vs. small man match, he knew his limits. He couldn't very well gorilla-press Batista over his head. He had to pick his spots and try to frustrate him since, in that instant, Michaels WAS quicker than Batista. Once again, Michaels is good at putting on a believable match. Believe this has been covered already. He's literally one of the few guys that can whip the crowd into a frenzy. WrestleMania XIX, Survivor Series 2003, Last Raw of 2003 with HHH, Last Man Standing, shall I go on? He knows how to have the crowd in the palm of his hand.....and sometimes he can do it with nothing more than chops and punches. I would go as far to say that out of all the wrestlers in the entire company, Michaels can work the crowd the best. Again, I believe this has been covered. His matches do make sense. People often get distracted by the kip-up and throw the rest away. The kip-up is an adrenaline rush. Like if you're playing a football game, get tired during the middle, then get a second wind and burst of energy. Same concept. Michaels gets fatigued, at the point of exhaustion. Gets a second wind and bounces back with a last-ditch effort. His moves DO make sense. If he targets a body part in a match, he'll exploit it and most times, wind up executing a move that hurts that body part and gets the crowd on its feet. His matches make sense. His moves make sense. Upon his return in 2002, I can't recall ever seeing him lost in the ring. So let's add being a ring general to the list as well. Hopefully, using your criteria, I've justified why I feel Shawn Michaels is not only a good entertainer, but a good WRESTLER. However, the thing is.....someone might not agree with me. They might use different criteria in their checklist. Then guess what.....*gasp* in their opinion, Shawn Michaels isn't a good wrestler. I've gone down your list and told you why I find him a good professional wrestler. You'll wind up disagreeing with me. This is what makes determining who's a good wrestler and who's not an OPINION!! Once again, it's all an opinion. It's not a fact. A fact would be that HHH has held the World Heavyweight Title since December 2003. This is a FACT. It can be PROVEN. There is NO ARGUING. Saying that HHH is a good wrestler....all a matter of one's specific thoughts. It can be argued back and forth with different proofs. Once again, that would make it an OPINION!! It's all subjective.

Perhaps it's the whole kickboxing career, and the fact that the majority of his offense is based on various types of kicks....

Good to who?? Good to you?? Where is this universally accepted list of what makes a wrestler good?? A wrestler being good is an OPINION. It's not a FACT. These are your criteria for a wrestler being good. That may be the criteria for the majority of the fans in seeing if a wrestler is good. That's not the criteria for EVERYBODY to decide if a wrestler is good. Deciding if a wrestler is good isn't a simple matter of going down a checklist and picking a "Yes" or "No." It's a matter of opinion among everybody to see who they find a GOOD wrestler and who they find a POOR wrestler. If martial arts is a person's most important factor in picking a good wrestler, Benoit is shit out of luck. And Van Dam is successful. If technical skills is a person's most important factor in picking a good wrestler, guess what....then Benoit IS a good wrestler. Stop acting like it's a cut-and-dry situation, because it's not. Choosing who's good or who isn't is an opinion question based on people's beliefs. Just because you give the reasons for someone being a good wrestler doesn't mean that it's the universal standard that everyone abides by. People have differing opinions.

It's all in the eye of a person what makes a good wrestler. While one person may find Benoit an unbelievable wrestler because he's great in one aspect of wrestling, another person may find him to just be a poor wrestler. What's a good wrestler? If having technical skills makes you a good wrestler, then sure, Benoit's excellent. But what about speed? High-flying types of moves? If someone watches wrestling for THAT alone, then Rey Misterio may be the best wrestler in their eyes. How about high-impact moves? To some fans, the only way you can be a good wrestler is if you have powerful moves that look like they cause serious damage. Why, in that case, Batista would be an awesome wrestler. Putting on shows in the ring could determine who's a good wrestler for some people. Shawn Michaels could look like he's ready to die in the ring, then bounce back and surprise the crowd. The man DOES put on a good show and, to some, this could be what a good wrestler is all about. Martial-arts make up a good wrestler? Rob Van Dam. In-ring charisma? The Rock or Hulk Hogan. Being able to sell? Then, surely, Bret Hart was one of the greatest wrestlers of all time. .....it's up to the fan to decide what a good wrestler actually is. While having martial arts skills or high-impact moves may not be important for YOU to be a good wrestler, they may be the most important things for someone else. It's silly to say that just because Benoit can wrestle technically, he's undoubtedly a good wrestler. Because somewhere, there is someone that doesn't give a damn about technical wrestling so, to them, Benoit is just a boring, below-average wrestler. It would definitely be best for a wrestler to have all of these, but very rarely does this happen. So, the fans pick WHICH of these aspects mean the most to them in picking who they feel is the best wrestler out there. This may differ from your opinion, but it doesn't make their opinion any less right. Each person has their own criteria - and sometimes that's forgotten around here.

Previously Banned Poster. This isn't the right place to post this question though.

Downhome, I agree with you. If changes are to be made, it's very important not to alienate those that already post in the WWE folder. Unfortunately, at this point, things have been botched pretty badly so it hasn't quite worked out well yet. But I'm sure it will eventually clear up. Boy, do I detect some sass in that remark? I sure as hell HOPE NOT!! (Pun wasn't originally intended, but works out well )

But I don't understand....were the off-topic joking threads the problem of the WWE folder? I thought it had to do with multiple threads on the same news item, garbage threads that had no point, that kind of stuff. These joking threads come once in a while, and I never thought it came to the point where they became a problem. If a folder like "WWE Hijinx" is created, it will become a Garbage Folder. People will post unfunny, unnecessary threads there - and the threads started in the WWE folder that WERE getting good will have their flow thrown off by moving it to an entirely different folder. Not to mention you're taking away most of the humor of the WWE folder. People will be afraid to make some type of "almost off-topic" joke in a thread just because that could then wind up causing it to move into another folder that gets less traffic. Then, eventually, the WWE Hijinx folder would become a mess. It's bound to. So, while the WWE folder would be cleaned up to a degree (which is debatable), we would have a new mess in another folder. I think those trying to solve this WWE Folder problem (of which I'm not quite sure what the problem is) are tackling it the wrong way. Humorous off-topic threads aren't the problem. I don't think they were ever the problem. Topics that leave no room for discussion, topics consisting of people arguing back and forth with no real points, meaningless boring questions, multiple news threads....these have been the problems. But I don't see them getting as much attention as "We have to do something about the odd humor!"

Why can't you just move those threads, since so many have fun with it, to HD or GC or something like that so that they can continue fooling around? Because then we're dealing with people that don't watch wrestling, and some feel compelled to start trouble for no reason. Imagine moving "Tomko/Fertig" or "Steve Urkel: GM" to Hardcore Discussion. We'll be seeing such wit as "OMG. THIS = TEH GHEY" or other sarcastic remarks for no reason. Move it to General Chat and again, you're exposing these wrestling ideas to some that don't watch wrestling. Then, once again, we may be getting sarcastic comments that are unwarranted just because THEY don't know what's going on. The off-topic joking threads should be kept in the WWE folder, but we shouldn't have to worry about a mod approving of whether or not they deserve to be there. I understand that right now, this wouldn't be a problem but.....I'm not completely sure why that Eddie thread was locked today. And that actually had some fairly INTELLIGENT conversation.

Well, it would be solved with words rather than fighting. The keyboard is mightier than the sword.

Jindrak on the radio show "Get in the Ring" dated from late November 2003. It was a fake. In fact, here is the link to the thread talking about the radio show. Jindrak's Interview Now can we move on from this?

We had pictures with Orton. And he doesn't have 1/1000 of the talent ot heat or skill of Eddie, so of course Eddie gets the BotD. Fair or not, (probably not) we're willing to give the talented people more leeway And by all accounts Jindrak did more then ask him for an autograph. What did he supposedly do? I don't recall precisely, but I think it was because Jindrak was angry at some spots in the Evolution/Team MaveKick six man match earlier that night? That'd be my best guess. and you do realize the whole fucking thing was a joke from those two... ONCE AGAIN a case of IWC over reacting to bullshit. Seriously, The IWC is so fucking fickle and gullible No, in this case the two of them starting a fight in a restaurant to work us is a case of backtracking... or an incredible immaturity on their part. There were police present at the restaurant if I remember correctly. Yeah....to play along in the joke. Didn't Orton even admit on a radio show or something that the whole thing was a prank?

Rumors say that Brock is an asshole to the fans all the time (and sometimes the wrestlers as well). And he's one of Vince's absolute favorite wrestlers in the company. Attitude towards the fans has nothing to do with how you're pushed in WWE. And to stay on-topic as those are the rules.....something tells me this friend told a different story from what really happened. Eddie could have been yelling at something else, this fan may have been an incredibly obnoxious prick, Eddie might have mumbled something this fan ASSUMED to be profanity, hell it may not have happened at all. We don't know. We weren't there. But then again, I just love reading how some jump to conclusions

Nah, Frigidsoul definitely isn't Eagan. His posts don't suck. I don't know who's Eagan. I really Ward=Eagan don't. I know.......that's what I said........ Well, yes. That was what we in show business call "being in agreement."

Ah, you think everything's overrated. Steve Urkel as GM was comedy GOLD! Eh, then the idea seems a little more forced, and it just loses some of the magic it had before. But then again, maybe that's just my opinion.

Nah, Frigidsoul definitely isn't Eagan. His posts don't suck. I don't know who's Eagan. I really Ward=Eagan don't.

The only problem I have with this off-topic rule is that there may potentially may be some creative threads in the future that could be squashed. The Tomko/Fertig thread, the Steve Urkel GM thread, even the now-Classic thread "Vince McMahon's Ladder-Legdrop." These were all threads that started out with a fairly weak premise, but being off topic and creative took it to heights it wouldn't have reached before. I'm not advocating that some nonsense shouldn't be cracked down upon. For instance, many topics in Hardcore Discussion become ruined because things deviate SO much from what the inital topic was, and these new, off-topic responses aren't in the least bit funny. But it seems to me that the WWE Folder is a different animal and should be treated as such. At times, I think going off-topic should be accepted, because it could bring the thread into a much more entertaining version than it would have been before. I mean....who would have started a "Steve Urkel as Raw GM" thread on its own. It had to naturally evolve from the original topic and taking away some off-topic discussion would take away some of the magic of that ever happening. I very much understand that a high majority of the WWE threads should be intelligent and on-topic. But I don't think people should be punished for the occasional thread going off-topic and resulting in something entirely different from what was intended. These are how ideas are formed.

There's almost no doubt in my mind that "Bring Back Charlie Ward" is Eagan. But then again, I don't have any ill will against Ward. I just think his posts suck beyond belief and consist of some of the unfunniest things I've ever read. Doesn't affect me one way or another if he posts, so no need for a witchhunt.

THE ENDING TO THE STORY THAT HAS TOUCHED US ALL: The congregation of alien spacecrafts began to slowly maneuver over our city. I clutched Natalie close to my chest as we stared up at the impending doom in the sky. We could see the underbelly of these monstrosities, and the trepidation that ran through my veins was shocking in its ferocity. However, I remained strong for Natalie. I refused to let her smell the scent of fear from my pores. Instead, I had made sure that she would smell the sweet aroma of Axe Phoenix bodyspray. Hell, if it works for mannequins, I knew it would do wonders for my sour-cream vixen. The principal spaceship stopped its movement and proceeded to hover over City Hall. Suddenly, the sky burst with a green flash that was dazzling to the eyes. Never before had I seen such an omnipotent, yet alluring, spark. While the momentous road Natalie and I had paved for ourselves was filled with covetous boyfriends, unruly Mexicans, bloodthirsty Russians, boisterous football players, and inadequately prepared chicken ravioli, I knew this would be the worst challenge we had ever faced. The chasm in the center of the extraterrestrial transportation opened, and an unbelievable lifeform slowly descended to the ground. I immediately had flashbacks of the Undertaker at Royal Rumble 1994, as this being not quite from our world stood in the sky. Natalie’s mouth was opened in a gape of astonishment and horror, and I soon found myself having to be extraordinarily restrained from jamming my tongue in her mouth and swishing her lip juices through my gums. Once this space invader had finally reached the safety of the green germination that spurts from the ground, I was taken aback by its appearance. Its two eyes immediately signaled that annihilation was this creature’s strongest desire. The alien’s skin was grotesque, a leathery mixture of green and gray, veins nearly popping out of the outer membrane. The scariest feature of this lifeform was the mouth, oh god, the mouth. The lips were cracked and humorless, and immediately, I knew that it had never once experienced the light touch and sensuality of a woman, be it a human or one from its own species. This incident was so terrifying that I could feel my bowels quickly releasing silent spurts of feces into my Calvin Klein boxers. But fear not, TSMers. I could see Natalie grimacing next to me, and I knew she was suffering through the same fate. At that point, I knew we had a deep connection and were truly in love. Finally, the alien opened its mouth and the townspeople continued its stunned silence. “SILENCE EARTHLINGS!” the voice boomed. Immediately, a passion of bloodthirsty rage and wrath coarsed through my veins. Who did this eyesore think he was?! I was ready to march over there and kick his space-traveling behind until I felt Natalie grasp my arm. She did not want me to permanently destroy the earth’s relations with other creatures of the galaxy. I looked into her soulful eyes and knew that if we made it out of here alive; I would want her to be my wife. However, I knew what had to be done. I unclasped her arm from mine and politely excused myself to the front of the crowd meeting. Throughout this, the strange being in front of City Hall continued to speak. “Earthlings, I am here for a reason. For too long, Earth has been the absolute dregs of the universe. The beings on Earth are devoid of class, elegance, and testicular fortitude. This is why, effective immediately, your planet will be destroyed. But oh no, human beings, don’t blame us. You brought this fate onto yourselves. YOU BROUGHT THIS HARROWING AND TRAUMATIC FATE TO YOURSELVES WITH YOUR MTV……YOUR BET……YOUR WWE…….oh no. We from the planet Glorgon didn’t screw Earth. No. Earth screwed Earth.” As this organism initiated its rise back to the spaceship, I commanded him to come back down. With a smirk, he ceased his ascension, planting his two feet back onto the ground. With a deep breath of simultaneous trepidation and confidence, I spoke. “Please sir, madam, whatever your sexual preference may be. We are not a dangerous population of people. Earth is the greatest place I’ve ever lived. Sure, we may not be unbelievably polite…..or courteous…..or perhaps even civil……but by gosh, we’re ourselves and you, as part of this galaxy, should be able to respect that. Whether it be vodka-drinking, fun-loving Russians……or rambunctious, grammatically-incorrect Mexicans…..or math-intelligent, can-collecting Asians…..we are a respectable society and we should be treated as such. But perhaps our planet isn’t the problem. Perhaps it is…..your society.” The eyes of the aliens morphed from pools of obliteration to lakes of bewilderment. “The people on this planet know how to care….how to love. Take my exquisite girlfriend Natalie. Before her, I was a nobody. I was a hitchhiker on the path to oblivion, no ecstasy or glory seemingly in sight. But then I met her on that fateful day in college, and now, I fear that every single breath she takes may be her last. But alas, this is love. Do you not know how this feels? If you don’t, it may do wonders for your bloodthirsty manner if you did. You, sir, do not look happy….but I guarantee that, with a love in your life, all your fears will vanish, climbing into that vast flying saucer in the sky.” Although we were hundreds of feet away, I could feel Natalie winking at me, her smile reaching across the corners of the world. After a minute of silence, the alien opened its mouth bit by bit. Finally, he spoke, his voice a complete contrast from the echoing boom that once crossed the land a few moments ago. “We…….have a lot to learn. Thank you, Earthling. Your relationship with Natalie has shown us the error of our ways. Perhaps I will seek a relationship with Malgamex after all. Her chesticles are simply intergalactic. Earth is safe for now – and it’s all thanks to you. Thank you for forever changing my life, giving me a reason to wake up in the morning. You have rejuvenated my soul, and for that, I am eternally grateful. Good-bye sir, and good bye all.” The mysterious creature was beamed back into his unidentified flying object and, in the blink of an eye, he and the other atmospheric vessels zoomed out of the milieu. Natalie pierced through the crowd still gathered with mouths agape, and jumped into my arms. I kissed her with more passion than a thousand Latin Lovers, but promptly dropped to one knee. I pulled a small, velvety black box out of my pocket and…. I don’t need to say it. She accepted. I saved the universe and – in the end – got the only girl that ever gave my life a purpose. Natalie and I are to be wed. And it’s thanks to those here at TSM that attempted to aid me with their advice. Thank you all. Love truly is magical. Forever yours….. Rawmvp.

Thanks Dames. Definitely the right decision.

I truly don't understand why the topic was closed. It was a fun thread to have around, even if nobody believed it. It definitely seems like the topic was shut prematurely and without warning. Somebody should have TOLD rawmvp that the thing would be shut soon, and he needed to wrap it up shortly. Instead, now we have THE most successful "Love, Sex, and Dating" topic ever, left without a conclusion. I don't understand why. I honestly don't want to start trouble or anything but the whole thing smacks of a power issue. "I have the ability to lock this thread and just because I don't like it, I'm going to do it." Too many people were enjoying the nonsense and the banter in the thread for it to be locked, simply because a particular moderator didn't like it. In fact, I would go as far as to say that some of the people calling for the thread to be locked did it more to get a response from rawmvp, than actually seriously calling for it to be closed. Personally, I call for the topic to be reopened for at least another week. This way, rawmvp can finish the story up with the ending everyone wants to see (i.e. - KGB Bloodbath) and it can actually DESERVE to be in classics.