Promoter

I think that is deliberate for obvious reasons(HHH?)! I like the Jericho/Benoit vs. Eddie/Rey match idea, but come on we know that aint happening.

The wwe dropped the ball with Diesel by making him "corporate" and trying to use him like Hulk Hogan. The roster wasn't that great either. JBL's reign has a major problem with it in that he probably isn't seen as the #1 champion of wrestling, while Diesel could have in 1995 with Hogan's stale run as champ in wcw.

I think some might be on the money with the Stephanie return idea. Maybe not in this angle, but I don't think Triple H and Stephanie admitting to the media their marriage in the last few months on different shows is for nothing. They will do something like Liz and Savage's reunion soon I bet.

Some very good points here. I know believe more than before that it was the timing of Austin's turn and siding with Mcmahon the way he did that destroyed his character. I think bringing up Hulk Hogan is a good point because talking about emotional investment if the two biggest stars can't be trusted why would the masses invest that much interest in another character? Could this be a problem the wwe is having now creating a star of that magnitude? Yeah, sure there is The Rock, but he is also not at the fever pitch popularity of 2000 either. I think the fans know he can't be trusted as the super babyface due to movies and his past as a heel. The same with Triple H. Hogan's turn was more necessity to the changing times and his promo was dead on imo which why it worked so well.

Benoit/Edge perhaps.

I think Vince had the basics okay with Austin turning heel and then suspending him to make his movie. That gives the explanation for the long absence and even non-fans knew he was filming since it was all over Hollywood. I guess at that time that is the way he saw it, but in hindisght it was a bad call. You know, now that I remember the rumour mill at the time had Triple H and Heyman wanting Austin vs. HHH at Mania 17. That would make things a lot more easy. Austin returns and topples the champion who ran the league in his absence. I do see how they wanted to do Rock/Austin in Texas though for the big turn out(although HHH might have pulled it off anyways). You give Austin his last big run with title from there as a babyface and it won't tank the box office. Maybe if they went with that direction things would have been different post Mania 17.

Actually, I had liked Big Show(still do somewhat) when he just came to Smackdown. Heyman did a great job with him and the storyline. The real people who put Brock over were Hulk Hogan, The Rock, and UT in that order. Brock was above Big Show at the time if you look at it this way. Brock then jobbing to Big Show made it possible for Big Show to give him back the rub.

I still think Austin going over Rock clean twice at a WrestleMania trumps Rock getting revenge and the match at the Royal Rumble. Austin would have established himself as superior to The Rock. I still think Austin getting jealous of The Rock's success is a great trigger for the heel turn when you take into consideration The Rock took his spot as top babyface. I suppose that is where the whole triple threat you suggested could come into play. Austin blaming The Rock, while everyone and their mother knows it was Triple H who pulled the hit. Austin seething jealousy over Rock being the champion with Triple H in his ear would turn fans against him for being so stupid I suppose.

Well, at least we got to see how whiney HBK can be on camera when he gave up the belt All we got are rumours about Brock being a crybaby backstage

Err... Big Show put over Brock a lot more often than Brock did Big Show. Though I see your point. Well, Brock was being pushed as "The Next Big Thing". I don't think seeing the Next Big Thing jobbing to The Big Job(which he was losing to Jeff Hardy) would be a smart business move Hell, he just went over UT "in his match" for crying out loud before jobbing to Big Show.

I'm going to agree with you on holding off the Austin heel turn(get to that later). However, you are not taking into account The Rock probably would not turn heel because of the movie plans. Yeah, he turned heel in 2003 upon return, but they quickly turned him back face just in time for his movie release. Another thing is having Austin beat Rock clean and Rock accepting the loss in that way pretty much kills the feud. The Rock would have lost twice to Austin by clean pinfall at WRESTLEMANIA. I guess that could trigger a heel turn, but that leads back to the problem I stated above. Back to holding off Austin's heel turn for a second. I think they might have had something to work with when Hogan returned, but again I see a problem there. Would Vince actually want to book Austin in that way compared to Hogan? Would it even work in Toronto? Austin/Hogan with the heel turn as planned at WM 17 might have kept Austin face for multiple reasons. The real problem was turning Austin heel and making it work for the box office in terms of getting his last run to mean something by putting certain guys over. The hard part is the timing. They could have done it perhaps with Brock Lesnar in 2002 since he was getting cheers over Rock for the title at SummerSlam. Maybe keeping Austin face was the only way of getting him to put people over in a meaningful way, but you then run the risk of the Warrior treatment of 1990 where some fans were booing him for beating Hogan and Hogan still is over without a real new star being born.

Okay, this is interesting. I'm sure the wwe "suits" have argued this over as well. I ask this....what would have been the proper use of Steve Austin upon his return in September 2000. I think some are forgetting that Austin was not helping the ratings and house show attendance at all when he returned. Everything stayed the same(not all his fault). Remember, Austin was coming back from that major surgery and Vince being the promoter knew Austin did not have that much longer in the business. How would you guys have used Austin? Take into account that WrestleMania would be held in his homestate as well. You got to look at Vince's viewpoint before he executed the angles he did. I think the heel turn was planned all along, but was executed stupidly. I do agree that when Austin teamed with Mcmahon it did kind of make the whole Austin/Vince saga pointless which killed some of the fanbase. However, what to do with Austin returning when you have The Rock and Triple H doing great business(remember this is happening perhaps in the summer of 2000 before Austin's return). I think Vince and Austin had the right idea, but the timing and execution was wrong(maybe Austin heel turn should have been anchored by something else).

What I meant about my post was that Lesnar could be looking at Big Show's comments in that way. He was planned to go over Hulk Hogan, but ended up jobbing to Big Show. In a twisted way, Big Show was put over by Brock Lesnar and not the other way around in that instance. Hogan was right by the way!

That was the intent to turn fans off Austin and onto the new big babyface they were grooming to take his spot. Remember, Austin's contract was coming up due in about two years and everyone knew Austin's condition would not get better. I think Vince was giving Austin one last great run as champion which is why he held the title so long that year. I think some of the storylines with Austin being paranoid was somewhat true. That Vince was going to use Austin's heel turn to make new big babyface stars in Angle, Benoit, and Triple H. The sure shot to take Austin's spot was The Rock who they used for the heel turn in the first place. The big problem with Rock as we know is his movie career taking off. HHH winning the title from Jericho was the plan to make him the new top babyface imo since The Rock was leaning more towards acting. There is truth about fans turning off, but Vince also made them turn off with the treatment of the wcw and ecw angle as well. They just mismanaged all the sure fire stuff that year.

You might have a point about Austin's heel schtick turning off fans, but you are not looking at all the problems that came about during the turn. I actually think the timing just wasn't right. You had wcw folding followed by ecw. A dark cloud is over the air. THEN AUSTIN TURNS ON THE FANS? The big babyface THE ROCK leaves to film movies? The timing was really bad. Then take into account the foolishness that was the Invasion. That angle helped turned Austin face by default and they did the stupid Austin leaves for wcw angle. From what I gather from rumours before the wwf bought wcw was this..... Austin turns heel at Mania and reigns as WWF Champion until WrestleMania 18 in Toronto. The Rock returns at SummerSlam and becomes the WCW Champion(wcw would have re-started supposedly in Septemeber taking over RAW or Smackdown) and the two have a unification match at Mania 18. For those who live in Toronto, we saw the wwe do promo pictures for the media with Rock facing off against Austin months before any thought of Hogan and company returning. That actually makes sense, but the wwf ruined the whole wcw thing and put the kibosh on it at Survivor Series because of all the confusion. The nWo and whatnot were still going to be brought in as a faction warring on both wcw and wwf. Somewhere in June/July it's said that Vince did not want wcw back as a separate entity at all and that's where everything goes to hell. They started booking from the hip again with Angle as a face and winning the title because of 9/11. The key to making Austin's heel turn work was The Rock's status as the movie star returning to take back his title and Austin and Vince doing everyting to avoid the match until it had to happen at Mania 18. Of course, they rushed everything into that Survivor Series thing and did a re-boot. As Linda said there was creative confusion that whole damn year from post Mania 17. Benoit and HHH going down didn't help either in the summer as they were going to be the faces to counter Austin.

You know I went back and watched a few things from the timeframe. At the time(I know some won't believe me) I really thought the Austin chair attack on HHH was suppose to telegraph a heel turn by Austin at the nwo match. Austin was getting over the edge since returning. They did not build the story well for Austin's heel turn imo. Yeah, sure I still mark out to the turn, but the company did not telegraph it well and maybe that was the intent. However, Austin's character was just being in character by having Vince help him somewhat. I think the fans were expecting Austin to eventually stun Vince after the match or the night after on RAW. The wwe also did not give Austin the proper material to have a strong heel turn promo. It was weak as hell with "I'm tired of you sponging off me". Seriously, the wwe could have done a monster job simply by having Austin return doubting his capabilities due to his injury(his loss to Trips was never a story plot and it happened right before the championship match) and being jealous of The Rock. Simple and the fans would not have liked Austin for it because that is not his character to doubt himself and lack confidence. As for the Triple H thing, I guess they probably felt Austin siding with the devil himself would help the heel turn, but I think they actually botched HHH's greatest chance at being a big face. With the Rock gone to film the wwe lacked a super face to counter Austin's turn. If they executed things a bit differently, Austin's heel turn could have been a box office monster imo. They just did not know how to book Austin as a heel until perhaps after the Invasion with the paranoid persona.

Another thing to add is this....Orton was given the mighty push from hell with winning the world title last summer. Hunter's Torn Quad is right. The fans will just loathe Orton in a way that gets him X-Pac heat. If Brock Lesnar wasn't so unreliable, I would agree with that poster who said Brock would be perfect. UT makes an open challenge and out comes Brock Lesnar to upset UT. THAT would garner TREMONDOUS heat for Lesnar for obvious reasons and the fans would actually buy Lesnar going over Taker. Of course, there is a massive problem with this to say the least.

Come on guys..........you can't see how they can automatically build this match for Mania with the timeframe they got? You have Taker parading around as the in-house legend and a legendary streak, while Orton's father(along with Piper) are being inducted into the HOF. If you can't see the wwe is teasing something here with those men influencing Orton I don't know what to say. The HOF clip and backstage skit sealed it for me on RAW. Hopefully, I'm right and the creative team is actually creative this time. They can do this in many ways. Orton can lose and still have heat. They can have him challenge him as a face and then upset his father and Piper for being a loser thus turning heel and going to smackdown to fix the problem of UT. They got a lot to work with here, but I'm with those who say UT should keep his streak. The reason I say this is that no one deserves that kind of push now. Giving it to Orton IS A WASTE, but as for the match a lot more people will assume it's POSSIBLE for Taker to lose due to the storyline which hasn't happened in YEARS at Mania. As some have stated going over Taker and getting the duke doesn't necessarily ensure that the person will be passed the torch. We have seen this with Hogan/Warrior, plus WM needs some kind of great statistic to add to the event. I ask this....does anyone remember the man whom broke Andre the Giant's winning streak for winning battle royales? When did it happen? In hindsight, it was better for the wwf to allow Andre to keep the record of undefeated master of the match. They can make Orton into a big star if they book this thing right. It's the cockiness and almost winning that will be the main trigger in executing Orton's character back to the heel machine he was last srping and summer. Hell, I actually liked that rumour I saw here with Orton facing Hogan because of the backdrop of the Mania 1 theme.

So, Big Show has been doing the F-5 on smackdown right Big Show is a babyface that will most likely job to the Champion this Sunday. The wwe is in negotiations supposedly for Big Show to face a Sumo wrestler for Mania. Brock was said to be in Japan and wanting to do shoot fights. Maybe I give the creative team too much credit, but.....next thing we know Big Show and Brock will have a shoot on ppv in May(rumoured return of Brock). If not, I'm sure Brock cares that Big Show wrestled hurt, while he broke his ribs as WWE Champion and had his reign cut short when it was planned for him to go over Hulk Hogan at MSG for Survivor Series. Still, Big Show has been busting tail though and has a good reason to gripe, but read the first sentence again.

I marked out seeing Piper. I think Hogan and Mr. T gotta go in this year to complete the Mania 1 theme. I hope they use them better at the event than WM 20 though. The Rock and The Rock had so much potential and they didn't even touch on it. This year I think the scenarios are pretty interesting. Randy Orton=Bob Orton: How many scenarios can come up with this one for the event itself? Volkoff/Sheik=La Resistance or the obvious Hassan connection Roddy Piper=Bob Orton/Randy Orton or even Hogan Hulk Hogan= hell they can still touch on Vince Mcmahon open end storyline and Hassan obviously. JBL is another choice being the American icon he proclaims. Orndorff=Chris Masters I bet Mr. T=possibly with Piper again, but it would be funny to see The Rock go postal on him with the mic

I do remember some rumours of this nature about Angle around summer time last year. Some here might have the laid out plans that the wwe had if we take into account the rumours. Wasn't Angle/Taker a rumoured title match for WrestleMania? If Angle went over( ) and if Vince wanted to crown Cena at SummerSlam than the scenarios here aren't so far fetched. The obvious problem is Angle's health and maybe that's why we got JBL with this monster push as champion. I still think Cena should not be crowned until at least SummerSlam to mazimize his current reign and character some more, but it seems they will pull the trigger at Mania. I can't see a retirement match drawing if Angle is a challenger because it will come off as grandstanding on the part of Angle. Remember, he pulled this stunt just last summer. We also got to take into account that Angle wanted to supposedly face legends at the last two Mania cards. Last year it was Bret Hart(whom he claimed was the greatest) and this year Undertaker(due to his WM legacy). If Heyman was responsible for this match as rumoured months back he probably gave Angle the middle ground with facing HBK. HBK has a pretty solid Mania legacy himself by going over Bret Hart at WM 12. He's only lost to Diesel since going singles at the event cleanly and is known to be the champion who got knocked out by Mike Tyson at the event. Maybe HBK being his last match is what Angle wants.

I think the UT/Kane tag thing might not happen for some reason. They moved Taker onto Luther. Maybe the UT/Angle rumoured match might happen.

This has to be the weakest No Way Out in history

Well, if the wwe does the rumoured brand title switches with the wwe title to raw and the wht to smackdown what will people say then? I also think in the initial stages of the split that Vince favoured Smackdown because he was "owner" of the brand. That show seemed to have much more star power than RAW at the time. Don't forget about the company trying to make tv deals. They seem to stack the show that has the tv deal coming up. They got their smackdown deal and now are working on raw's.

I forgot about that. I remember the interview on OTR where Trips mentioned this. The funny thing was that he really talked about what the implications would be if things with Stephanie didn't work out. That Triple H always thinking of others You know, I bet Triple H will probably face this kind of problem. We see women always go after the big dogs with accusations. What better target than Triple H? That alone may have Triple H behaving and not cheating on Stephanie in this marriage. Then again, he did make that famous quote at KOR '98 , so who knows? Tempatations!